If you knew then.. what you know now....

[NoReleaf]

I had never bought a new car before, and I don't expect to again (I bought 6-year old cars and drove them for 6 years, which I repeated four times over). But I wanted an EV

That's a lot like where I was.

On a more practical level, would I recommend it to a new buyer without those discount/rebate incentives? Right now, I'd look at cars with TMS, like the Bolt

No discounts, rebates, or tax credits on the Leaf for me. I really wanted an EV. The tax credit was neither here nor there for me. I only realized later that leasing disqualified me. Whatever. I took a late interest in the Bolt just before pulling the trigger on the Leaf. If the Chevy dealership had taken me a little more seriously, there's a good chance I would be driving a Bolt now.

 

[NoReleaf]

The Dealer trains the salesmen. If he doesn't spend any time or effort on educating the salesman about BEV's then the salesman is far more likely to steer the customer to an ICE and disparage the BEV. If you want to buy a BEV, you have to be persistent about it. A lot of potential Leaf sales become Versa or Sentra sales instead or get upsold into an Altima. No need to worry about charging stations or range anxiety with a ICE. No dangerous high voltage or battery fires either. It's a lot easier for the salesman to maneuver a customer than you think. If you walk in specifically to buy a Leaf, you can do that. If you just want to find out about the Leaf, the salesman will redirect you almost every time. His job is to sell you a car that day, not to educate you. He'll try and sell you something you're familiar with because he needs that sale today and he knows that he has only one chance to do it.

All true. Though I doubt that dangerous high voltage or battery fires are really on anyone's mind at this point, especially if both customer and salesperson are less than completely familiar with EVs.

I did like the Sentra, and after my initial research it was first on my list to look at with Nissan (even test drove one). The rest of my research list was hybrids and the Volt. But the Nissan dealership had a Leaf in the showroom - I'll give them credit for that, for sure - and once I saw one right before me and learned that you could plug in at home without 240V, nothing else Nissan had was of any interest.

It is very true that I was ever so slightly and subtly maneuvered and redirected, but I was having none of it.

I shouldn't worry about anything but having a car that works for me, and mostly I don't, but this chain of no incentive for the salesman, no incentive for the dealership owner, and Nissan "throwing bones" to service departments all leads back to the disappointing idea that maybe Nissan has a toe in the water with the Leaf and reaps the benefit of various subsidies, and that's pretty much all it is. Would any of the ICE car manufacturers have even the mild interest in electric vehicles they currently do without Tesla?

 

[goldbrick]

Would any of the ICE car manufacturers have even the mild interest in electric vehicles they currently do without Tesla?

Several major manufacturers claim that they will be selling nothing but EV's in xx years. Creating an automobile platform and the factories and suppliers required to build them is a big undertaking. It's not something that can be done in 12 months. Add in the 'bet the company' aspect of it and the fact the market still wants bigger and bigger ICE cars and it's easy to see why things are the way they are.

The interest in EV's is small still but it's growing. Personally, I see more and more people seeing the benefits and thinking of EV's. I don't expect to see the end of ICE vehicles in my lifetime but many urban drivers could convert to EV's and that is where the majority of car miles are driven today. Hopefully at some point a critical mass will develop and EV's will be the norm rather than the outlier they are today.

 

[NoReleaf]

Sales critter won't get paid a commission for educating but he/she will if they makes a sale. Much easier to sell something that people walking in are familiar with and that the sales critter is also familiar with.

It's weird that being a car salesman is generally seen as a contemptible job. Evidence of a corrupt system, no? To wit, maybe:

And, unfortunately, in the US, due to state franchise laws all over the place, in many places, automakers can't own dealerships (Google for Tesla franchise laws).

I have great respect for good auto mechanics, and I've had one for 25 years. Cars are kind of a big deal. You would think that there could be something equally respectable about someone helping to put you in the car you need and want and can afford.

The Nissan sales critters I dealt with were young guys, obviously pretty new. The fact that I knew exactly what I wanted and exactly what I was going to put down without any dancing was apparently outside of any known procedure for them. No fault of theirs, just another dealership (complete with stereotypical "does this guy have connections to the mob or what?" owner/manager) with no interest in the Leaf, I guess.

Someone I would be more inclined to put down as a sales critter was the guy at a Toyota dealership. I was looking at an Avalon hybrid. What a beauty. In retrospect, it might have been a better deal. The sales guy, however, was extremely dismissive of the Leaf. A little background on the history of the Prius and all of Toyota's various superior technology, fine, but slamming the competition is a big turn-off for me. Just this guy's style, I guess. Must work well on other people.

 

[NoReleaf]

That's why you should only buy or lease a Leaf on the last day of the month, if possible.

Darn. October 26. I was four days early. Getting away from work on the last business day of the month is pretty much an impossibility for me, though.

I was not the most rational actor myself. I had already tipped my hand, although I cannot say what influence that had. It could be that their not trying to sweeten the deal on the Leaf (as far as I could tell) was intended to steer me away from it, I don't know. By the 26th - D-Day - the lease payment had come down $151/month from where it had been, and matched what they did not know was my quote on a Volt, so maybe I did OK. Or maybe the original offer was just as ridiculous as it appeared to be.

 

[NoReleaf]

This dealership still has sales staff and service technicians that specialize in LEAFs.

I am posting this to offer a different perspective than some recent posts and to suggest that those shopping for any EV call around to find dealers that are truly interested in selling/supporting them.

A good perspective. Mine is only a cautionary tale of one possible introductory experience. I'll know better next time and should have known better this time. I was in a lather to get both a new car (out of necessity) and an EV (out of desire), so I married in haste and may now repent at leisure. Or not. We'll see.

I'm still not sure if I am obligated to have my leased car serviced at a dealership under all circumstances. I've never leased before. Or if my trusty mechanic of 25 years is well-equipped to deal with EV service and repairs. More to find out.

I never thought to ask the dealer when buying a Leaf about how many trained technicians they have.

Me either. But the first dealer I think I will call when I need to will be not the one I bought from but another local dealer, the one with a DCFC charger. They've already got an in with me.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I'm still not sure if I am obligated to have my leased car serviced at a dealership under all circumstances. I've never leased before. Or if my trusty mechanic of 25 years is well-equipped to deal with EV service and repairs. More to find out.

As long as what little work required (tire rotation) is performed and documented, the only thing a Nissan dealership (ANY Leaf-certified dealership) has to do is the annual "battery report."

 

[NoReleaf]

Several major manufacturers claim that they will be selling nothing but EV's in xx years. Creating an automobile platform and the factories and suppliers required to build them is a big undertaking. It's not something that can be done in 12 months. Add in the 'bet the company' aspect of it and the fact the market still wants bigger and bigger ICE cars and it's easy to see why things are the way they are.

The interest in EV's is small still but it's growing. Personally, I see more and more people seeing the benefits and thinking of EV's. I don't expect to see the end of ICE vehicles in my lifetime but many urban drivers could convert to EV's and that is where the majority of car miles are driven today. Hopefully at some point a critical mass will develop and EV's will be the norm rather than the outlier they are today.

The only people with any curiosity about or interest in EVs, as far as I can tell, are those of an already environmentally-conscious bent or those who just like and can afford any cool new car that comes along. The purely practical benefit isn't recognized and isn't being sold. But it is encouraging that you are seeing more interest.

To bring it back closer to the OP's If you knew then.. what you know now.... :

For those of you who have been into EVs for years now, did you have expectations of what the future held for EVs, and how does the progress as of 2018 (soon 2019) strike you?

 

[NoReleaf]

As long as what little work required (tire rotation) is performed and documented, the only thing a Nissan dealership (ANY Leaf-certified dealership) has to do is the annual "battery report."

Good news (I think). Thanks.

 

[WetEV]

For those of you who have been into EVs for years now, did you have expectations of what the future held for EVs, and how does the progress as of 2018 (soon 2019) strike you?

Back in 1996, I shared an office with a fellow that owned an EV. He convinced me over lunch that EVs were going to take off once batteries got cheap enough, a decade in the future. Less than a percent at first, but doubling market share every few years. He was optimistic, took closer to 15 years for the first real production EVs. Market share for EVs has been growing rapidly since the LEAF was introduced. Tesla has been the fastest growing, but only because they keep betting the company on large production increases. They probably need to make one or two more betting the company to become a big car manufacturer, if they survive.


I looked into doing a conversion of a gaser to an EV in 2004, and decided it didn't quite make sense. Too much work, too much money, and not as good of expected result. Looked at a predone conversion in 2010, then decided to wait for the Ford Focus Electric or the LEAF or ...

Did test drive an iMiev, and was tempted, but the FFE and LEAF were coming soon.

 

[GerryAZ]

I think we would be much further along if California had not backed off of their zero tailpipe emission requirements in the late 1990s. Several manufacturers were leasing (a few were selling) compliance cars and light trucks, but they all stopped as soon as California rolled back their requirements for a certain percentage of new vehicles to be zero emission. The GM EV1 was actually available at Saturn dealers in Phoenix for a while and I really wanted one, but GM would only lease them for 3 years and the lease rates were $700 per month back then (probably equal to $2000 per month now). We kept checking with dealers about purchase instead of lease, but those who were involved with EVs back then know that GM destroyed them after leases expired so they had no intention of ever selling them. The other compliance vehicles were only available in California, but a few of the ones that could be purchased (instead of lease only) made it to Arizona. I see an occasional Chevrolet S10 or Ford Ranger EV with updated batteries at EV gatherings in Phoenix.

Tesla and Nissan showed the rest of the manufacturers that there is a market for EVs. Unfortunately, most of the other manufacturers are still just offering compliance cars (only available in CA and other CARB states). I hope the other manufacturers decide to market their EVs nationwide to give drivers in other states more options to drive electric.

 

[Dooglas]

No discounts, rebates, or tax credits on the Leaf for me. I really wanted an EV. The tax credit was neither here nor there for me. I only realized later that leasing disqualified me.

Hmmm. Where is all this strange stuff coming from? Nissan gives you the full value of the federal EV tax credit as a reduction in the value of the vehicle you lease. In other words, they reduce the value of the car by $7,500 plus any other applicable discounts/rebates before they calculate the monthly cost of your lease.

I'm still not sure if I am obligated to have my leased car serviced at a dealership under all circumstances. I've never leased before. Or if my trusty mechanic of 25 years is well-equipped to deal with EV service and repairs. More to find out.

Well, you really haven't asked the important question yet. How much servicing do you expect to have done to your Leaf in the 2 or 3 years of your lease? The basic answer is that EVs require very little service or maintenance other than brakes and tires. Unlikely you will need either one during the period of the lease. The few other items on the service list are basically inspections.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Nissan gives you the full value of the federal EV tax credit as a reduction in the value of the vehicle you lease. In other words, they reduce the value of the car by $7,500 plus any other applicable discounts/rebates before they calculate the monthly cost of your lease.

No. That ended after the 2018 came out. They now play it like GM and pocket the Federal credit, giving you some of it in the form of lease credits or incentives. I only got about $4k towards my lease, total, IIRC.

 

[cwerdna]

Nissan gives you the full value of the federal EV tax credit as a reduction in the value of the vehicle you lease. In other words, they reduce the value of the car by $7,500 plus any other applicable discounts/rebates before they calculate the monthly cost of your lease.

No. That ended when the 2018 came out. They now play it like GM and pocket the Federal credit, giving you some of it in the form of lease credits or incentives. I only got about $4k towards my lease, total, IIRC.

Wow. I heard that happened but thought it varied depending on trim and that there might've been a trim/equipment level where Nissan passed along the full $7500 in the form of a cheaper lease. But if you have an '18 SL w/ProPilot, yours is as high as you can go. Maybe they did pass along the full amount on some '18s at some point then stopped?

I didn't follow closely as I didn't have any plans to lease or buy a 40 kWh Leaf.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I think the S got the full pass-through, for a while, now that you mention it. But I don't think it lasted very long. I could be mistaken about that.

 

[SalisburySam]

TLR - If you knew then...what you know now... Maybe. Probably.

Turning Mr. Peabody’s Wayback Machine to April, 2010, there I was reading somewhere an announcement that Nissan is going to manufacture an all-electric hatchback with a 100-mile range and deliver it the following year. And that they were taking reservation deposits of $99.00. Are they kidding? Who buys a non-existent car like that? As a geeky early tech adopter, sign me up! and for what would be called the “SL.”

As deliveries slowly began in late 2011, I saw my car changed to a 2012. My anxiously awaited delivery in February, 2012 was an amazing event. As the first or second LEAF sold at that dealership, it was almost as big a deal for them as for me. I met almost everyone at the dealership including the owner, and the LEAF-trained technician who would be the sole person working on my vehicle. Saw the service bays, tools, and charging station at the bay all specific to the LEAF. Lots of coffee, pictures, handshaking, and a detailed introduction to the vehicle from my sales person who was very knowledgeable about the actual LEAF. He got me set up with CARWINGS, and we all were impressed with the fit and finish of this beautiful Japan-made car. A short time later my wife and I were off in an incredible vehicle the likes of when neither of us had seen but were enjoying immensely.

Despite the sales person’s suggestion to lease the vehicle, we decided to buy it anyway. Possibly a mistake but today I’m not sure that really matters much.

Initial Surprise #0: hey, the nav features suck. This was, for me, one of the most convoluted non-intuitive intentionally-annoying interfaces I’d seen, especially coming from my Magellan GPS with it stupidly-simple interface. But wait, you can’t even use it if you’re moving, nor can the passenger. Ugh. A bit of the bloom is off the rose. Couple that with the nag screen EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU START THE FRIGGIN’ CAR.

Surprise #1: hey, this doesn’t really have a 100-mile range. Got well and truly screwed on this factoid.

Surprise #2: hey, you can’t go anywhere. There was really no charging options enroute outside Nissan dealerships so any trip was from dealership to dealership and with a long time spent at each. I had a quickcharge port on my SL but there were no DCFC’s in the entire state at the time and for years to come.

Surprise #3: hey, cold weather sucks. While the early days were cold, we had a new battery and didn’t really notice battery cold-weather impacts that much. Then came the following winter in Ohio and by that time and with this forum’s informative postings, we were acutely aware of the cold-weather range loss. Even a 60-mile round trip with heated seats, steering wheel, and cabin heat mostly on Interstates at 65mph was a bit of an anxious drive.

Surprise #4: hey, overall range drops like a rock. Even with baby-tender care to use the 80% charging option at all times and with low usage, first bar drop happened at less than 6,000 miles. That was at year 3. Lost 2nd bar in year 5 at less than 10,000 miles. Had I been putting more miles on the vehicle, I may have qualified for a battery replacement, and today I still have 10 bars at just under 13,000 miles.

Surprise #5: hey, CARWINGS sucks. When it works it was amazing...but that was less than half the time. If the servers weren’t glitchy, the cell network was, or the car was parked where there was weak-to-no signal, or I was holding my phone wrong (iPhone4, remember AntennaGate), or some other wacky reason.

Surprise #6: AT&T’s 2G network was on life support and the plug pulled, requiring a $199 “investment” if I wanted to continue using the CARWINGS services. So I “invested” and it worked but not a lot better than before. At least I had none of the 12v battery issues others have had.

Surprise #7: hey, the maps are woefully out-of-date, and updates are expensive and also woefully out of date. Didn’t really matter much as I much earlier found navigation to be an exercise in futility. See Surprise #0. And iPhone tools for navigation were far superior anyway.

Today, I look back and say I had one of those typical “early adopter” experiences. I paid a lot for the chance to be first on the block with an all-electric commuter vehicle, giving me first-hand knowledge of EV ownership, service, operations, upsides, and downsides. And for all of that I’m thankful. My maintenance costs have been minimal as expected, I can change my own cabin filter and wiper blades. The reliability has been superb outside of CARWINGS and now EVConnect which for me is no better. Many of the items of suckage above are still items of suckage today. But mostly my overarching emotion is disappointment. I’m disappointed that Nissan didn’t take this bold first vehicle and parlay that into an amazing first-mover advantage, eclipsing anything Tesla and others could possibly have done. I had expected significant range increases with subsequent models and it took years to add paltry amounts. Even today’s 150-mile range is non-competitive against 300-mile vehicles from Chevy and Tesla. I understand not everyone needs longer range, but for a vehicle to be an ICE replacement, I think a 300-miles range is the minimum needed.

So now I have my 310-mile range Tesla Model 3, which continuously amazes me. The new feature updates, wonderful navigation, and range gave me my first change to NOT need an ICE and I now have two EV’s. I kept my 2012 LEAF as a 2nd around-town vehicle and the fact that I still like it. It is far easier for me to get into and out of the LEAF and for our relatively mild winters here in North Carolina now, I still enjoy the steering wheel heater.

And at the end of next month I’ll have 7 years with my early-adopter car. I wonder when it’ll be time to say goodbye, and get that 2nd Tesla.

 

[Triggerhappy007]

I think the S got the full pass-through, for a while, now that you mention it. But I don't think it lasted very long. I could be mistaken about that.

Not sure about when you leased yours, but it seems like the full incentives are still available on the 18 and 19 Leafs. Here's those amount according to Edmunds for NY, your zip code will probably be lower:
18 S - $9,325
18 SV - $8,050
18 SL - $7,500
19 S - $11,700
19 SV - $10,550
19 SL - $10,150

https://www.choosenissan.com/nissan-offers/
Choose the Leaf and then click "Offer Details" under the Lease to see the actual amount.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Nope. $3500 "total savings" including $2500 "bonus cash" and $1000 NMAC lease cash, in my locale. I'm sure some Leafs are getting it now as a clearance bonus, in some locales.

 

[Triggerhappy007]

Nope. $3500 "total savings" including $2500 "bonus cash" and $1000 NMAC lease cash, in my locale. I'm sure some Leafs are getting it now as a clearance bonus, in some locales.

That's horrible. I just saw you're from upstate NY. I just Googled NY zip code and put in 10001. I'm not familiar with the area. NY State is supposed to have the lowest lease rates in the nation, but I guess not in your area.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I did better than that in April, getting a little over $4k off, IIRC. I also got free (and unwanted) locking lug nuts, and the cargo cover, which I thought came with the SL but apparently doesn't always.