Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell

[ydnas7]

A USA spec Hyundai is around 25MPG (combined) https://www.hyundaiusa.com/tucson/specifications.aspx 2.0 FWD Petrol
This correlates to the Australian 200gCO2/km http://www.hyundai.com.au/vehicles/ix35/specifications-and-range 2.0 FWD Petrol
in UK, diesel Hyundai is from 135gCO2/km http://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/ix35#efficiency 1.7 CRDi Diesel Blue Drive 2WD Manual

Hyundai ix35 is the same as Hyundai Tucson (marketing - different names for different regions, some prefer names, some prefers code numbers)
Asutralian ADR81/02 seems same as UK test https://www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au/GVGPublicUI/Information.aspx?type=FuelConsumptionLabel

if 200gCO/km is about 25MPG
then
135gCO2/km is about 37MPG (200/135 x 25)

so if a Hydrogen Tucson vehicle is rated as equivalent to 37MPG, then it is achieving the same emissions as what a diesel Tucson achieves today.
http://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2014/10/How-Clean-Are-Hydrogen-Fuel-Cells-Fact-Sheet.pdf
UCS figures indicate that the fossil fuel H2 gives the Hydrogen Hyundai 38MPGghg

just like the Mercedes Hydrogen B Class, Hyundai's frugal diesel has comparable emissions as its Hydrogen equivalent. comparing the like vs like, the same vehicle. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19799

 

[GRA]

Denser urban settings also have a higher percentage of people using mass transit.
In Minneapolis/St. Paul there are a number of apartments and condos that do offer EV charging. I expect this number to grow faster than the nationwide rollout of hydrogen refueling stations.

True, this is in the U.S.. Hydrogen makes sense for some uses, private cars aren't one of them.
Maybe in 30 years.

Re the bolded section, quite so, there is less need to own a car at all in dense urban environments for local travel, where some combination of walking/biking/transit/carsharing is possible, and that need will shrink even further with the advent of autonomous vehicles. Which only leaves people needing cars for road trips, and for road trips, fast refueling and long range are big pluses. At the moment, FCVs have the price/performance advantage in those areas, although that could change as batteries develop. Of course, the fueling infrastructure is still lacking, but then so are QCs/SCs in large parts of the country, and at least where FCVs are being introduced the infrastructure is being built.

 

[TonyWilliams]

At the moment, FCVs have the price/performance advantage in those areas, although that could change as batteries develop. Of course, the fueling infrastructure is still lacking, but then so are QCs/SCs in large parts of the country, and at least where FCVs are being introduced the infrastructure is being built.

I just want to be clear for folks reading this that you're not suggesting that the single digit number of hydrogen stations that are predominately in Southern California are some comparison to the EV infrastructure that consists of thousands and thousands of refueling locations and hundreds of thousands of cars.

There is NO COMPARISON.

EVs don't just stop getting better and having a more robust infrastructure because a handful of the oldest and biggest auto manufacturers want to play with hydrogen.

Here is a FANTASTIC overview of where I think one pivotal car will be in 2020, the Tesla Model 3:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/3258855-will-teslas-model-3-compete

 

[GRA]

At the moment, FCVs have the price/performance advantage in those areas, although that could change as batteries develop. Of course, the fueling infrastructure is still lacking, but then so are QCs/SCs in large parts of the country, and at least where FCVs are being introduced the infrastructure is being built.

I just want to be clear for folks reading this that you're not suggesting that the single digit number of hydrogen stations that are predominately in Southern California are some comparison to the EV infrastructure that consists of thousands and thousands of refueling locations and hundreds of thousands of cars.

There is NO COMPARISON.

EVs don't just stop getting better and having a more robust infrastructure because a handful of the oldest and biggest auto manufacturers want to play with hydrogen.

Here is a FANTASTIC overview of where I think one pivotal car will be in 2020, the Tesla Model 3:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/3258855-will-teslas-model-3-compete

The single-digit number of refueling stations you mention primarily in SoCal, is scheduled to increase this year to 20-25 or so in the major California metro areas, and apparently add some more in the NE, although that may be next year. Totals in CA are scheduled to increase to 50 or so next year, increasing every year until there are are 100 or so here, at which point full commercial viability will (it's hoped) be achieved, and the market can take over. No guarantee of that, of course. The companies selling/leasing the vehicles are restricting purchasers to people who live within a reasonable distance of a fueling station, and making sure that the areas with the most potential owners have them.

Obviously, if you can charge at home, a BEV currently gives you many more potential places where you could use it in the U.S. But then, with central point rapid refueling, you don't need to be able to charge at home or work. That's a nice to have for those who can, but limiting for those who can't. As for fast recharging for trips, as I said that is still geographically quite limited even for Tesla owners (especially off major travel routes), and much slower beyond one QC stop.

So, while the H2 fueling infrastructure will still be quite limited, where you will be able to buy these cars it will be perfectly adequate given the initial slow rollout, and certainly better than was the case for e.g. the Tesla Roadster when it was introduced, at a roughly comparable level of development and volume. You won't be able to drive them cross-country for a while, but then how many people need to do that? Most of my road trips are intrastate, and CA's a big state. So, if a FCV will work for you now, good. And if not, there are other options, from the soon (we hope) to arrive 2nd Gen BEVs, to road-trip worthy anywhere now PHEVs, or whatever you like among HEVs/high mileage ICEs. The main thing is to be moving in the right general direction.

Those who are interested in more detail about the buildout schedule in California and other details should consult the (overly long and often repetitively argumentative, but still informative) Hydrogen and FCEV Discussion Thread, http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14744

or skip that and have a look at:

"Annual Evaluation of Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle Deployment and Hydrogen Fuel Station Network Development"; California Air Resources Board; 2014. Has details of current and planned stations, where they're located and why, projections of FCEV sales out to 2020, projected H2 demand, station coverage and capacities, operating requirements, etc. http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/ab8/ab8_report_final_june2014.pdf

Also see.:

"The Hydrogen Transition"; Ogden, Joan; Yang, Christopher; Nicholas, Michael; Fulton, Lew; 2014.
Describes where we currently are, what steps will be needed to make the transition, projections of costs to do so, H2 and FCEV prices and cost curves, comparisons with other AFV technology costs and timelines, how much money various states, countries and regions are spending to support the development of FCEVs and H2 infrastructure etc. http://steps.ucdavis.edu/files/08-1...White-Paper-Hydrogen-Transition-7.29.2014.pdf

That's quite enough off-topic for today.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The single-digit number of refueling stations you mention primarily in SoCal, is scheduled to increase this year to 20-25 or so in the major California metro areas, and apparently add some more in the NE, although that may be next year. Totals in CA are scheduled to increase to 50 or so next year, increasing every year until there are are 100 or so here, at which point full commercial viability will (it's hoped) be achieved, and the market can take over....
So, while the H2 fueling infrastructure will still be quite limited, where you will be able to buy these cars it will perfectly adequate given the initial slow rollout, and certainly better than was the case for e.g. the Tesla Roadster when it was introduced, at a roughly comparable level of development and volume. You won't be able to drive them cross-country for a while, but then how many people need to do that? Most of my road trips are intrastate, and CA's a big state.

The Tesla Roadster from now 7 years ago was not restricted to SoCal, or just California. People have already driven them around the world (yes, literally, around the world).

There are ZERO plans to build out ANY hydrogen beyond CARB-ZEV markets. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

The TOTAL of those hydrogen cars in 2020-2025 will be several thousand, with maybe 100 stations (I seriously doubt that we will actually get to 100, but tax money will definitely be spent as if we were).

When folks reflect on there own personal use, as you have, it really has no bearing on what people at large do with a car. Yes, most people have M-F, 9-5 jobs and drive 37 miles daily. Hurray. But, neither you nor I are in that cookie cutter role, and neither are millions of folks. Many millions.

Go look out on freeway in a rural area. What will you see? People driving cars to places all over... some even crazy enough to drive really long distances. HUMANS DRIVE THOSE DISTANCES. HYDROGEN CARS CAN'T.

Tesla cars can TODAY. It will only get better, while Hyundai, Toyota, and Honda (and maybe a few others like Daimler and VW) will dabble in hydrogen, mostly for regulatory and tax credit reasons. We will be lucky if there are 10,000 hydrogen cars in the USA and 100 stations by 2025, but there absolutely will be MILLIONS of EVs.

 

[GRA]

The single-digit number of refueling stations you mention primarily in SoCal, is scheduled to increase this year to 20-25 or so in the major California metro areas, and apparently add some more in the NE, although that may be next year. Totals in CA are scheduled to increase to 50 or so next year, increasing every year until there are are 100 or so here, at which point full commercial viability will (it's hoped) be achieved, and the market can take over....
So, while the H2 fueling infrastructure will still be quite limited, where you will be able to buy these cars it will perfectly adequate given the initial slow rollout, and certainly better than was the case for e.g. the Tesla Roadster when it was introduced, at a roughly comparable level of development and volume. You won't be able to drive them cross-country for a while, but then how many people need to do that? Most of my road trips are intrastate, and CA's a big state.

The Tesla Roadster from now 7 years ago was not restricted to SoCal, or just California. People have already driven them around the world (yes, literally, around the world).

And you drove your LEAF BC2BC, and probably someone has ridden a pogo stick across the country. Just because it CAN be done doesn't mean it's a practical use. Elseways, why have you continually been upgrading to more expensive but more capable BEVs that offer more and more mileage, and modifying them to offer faster 'refueling'? Simple, you recognize that the cars' range and charging times were serious handicaps to practical use on longer trips.

There are ZERO plans to build out ANY hydrogen beyond CARB-ZEV markets. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

Currently true. So what? I live in _the_ CARB state, as do most of the likely purchasers (I'm not one of those), and the majority of the remaining likely purchasers live in other CARB-ZEV states. If FCVs prove out, they'll expand, and if not, then BEVs or something else will have won. Either's fine with me.

The TOTAL of those hydrogen cars in 2020-2025 will be several thousand, with maybe 100 stations (I seriously doubt that we will actually get to 100, but tax money will definitely be spent as if we were).

Agree generally, we'll have to see on the station total.

When folks reflect on there own personal use, as you have, it really has no bearing on what people at large do with a car. Yes, most people have M-F, 9-5 jobs and drive 37 miles daily. Hurray. But, neither you nor I are in that cookie cutter role, and neither are millions of folks. Many millions.

Go look out on freeway in a rural area. What will you see? People driving cars to places all over... some even crazy enough to drive really long distances. HUMANS DRIVE THOSE DISTANCES. HYDROGEN CARS CAN'T.

Not without fueling infrastructure, certainly, but the same's true for BEVs or ICEs. OTOH, at the moment FCEVs can drive considerably further than any BEV without refueling/recharging, and are priced considerably less. So it all comes down to what your personal needs are. I spend a high % of my time driving long distances in rural areas, and at the moment, an FCEV would work best for me. Other people with different needs may find BEVs work best for them. Ain't choice wonderful?

Tesla cars can TODAY. It will only get better, while Hyundai, Toyota, and Honda (and maybe a few others like Daimler and VW) will dabble in hydrogen, mostly for regulatory and tax credit reasons. We will be lucky if there are 10,000 hydrogen cars in the USA and 100 stations by 2025, but there absolutely will be MILLIONS of EVs.

Actually, H2 cars, _given the fueling infrastructure_, are considerably better at driving THOSE DISTANCES than even Teslas, which have benefited from 3 years of infrastructure growth to allow them to be used in some parts of the country with reasonable efficiency, but still lacking that in many others. A car that can realistically go 250-300 miles at freeway speeds year-round, even if only inside the state, is far more useful to me and many people who take road trips, than one that will go 150 miles year round when new (what I expect from the Model 3, matching the S60), but could be used outside of the state on a very limited number of routes. Given the ratio of my in-state trips to out of state ones, I'd be perfectly comfortable owning a FCV for everything in-state, and renting when I need to drive out of state. In a few years, everything may change: H2 fueling infrastructure may start rapidly expanding while fuel and vehicle prices rapidly drop, or BEV year-round range may radically increase while charging times and prices radically drop. A few years from now it will be time to reassess. But really, Tony, we've had all these arguments before in the H2 & Fuel Cell thread, so do we really need to redo them all again in every single specific-FCEV thread?

 

[lorenfb]

But really, Tony, we've had all these arguments before in the H2 & Fuel Cell thread, so do we really need to redo them all again in every single specific-FCEV thread?

Right, a total waste of forum bandwidth, especially given how poorly the forum functions with the new format!
Besides, just continual Tony posting of hyperbole about crystal ball forecasting data from Tesla.

Back to reality: Where are those Model X deliveries?

 

[TonyWilliams]

But really, Tony, we've had all these arguments before in the H2 & Fuel Cell thread, so do we really need to redo them all again in every single specific-FCEV thread?

Right, a total waste of forum bandwidth, especially given how poorly the forum functions with the new format!
Besides, just continual Tony posting of hyperbole about crystal ball forecasting data from Tesla.

Back to reality: Where are those Model X deliveries?

So, you just add to the issue of "bandwidth" with more blather?

Tesla short sellers, like you obviously are, are going to get a well deserved squeeze when the Model X does arrive this fall.

Then, Model 3 reveal next spring. I predict $400 stock price. How's that from my "crystal ball"?

 

[JasonA]

The single-digit number of refueling stations you mention primarily in SoCal, is scheduled to increase this year to 20-25 or so in the major California metro areas, and apparently add some more in the NE, although that may be next year. Totals in CA are scheduled to increase to 50 or so next year, increasing every year until there are are 100 or so here, at which point full commercial viability will (it's hoped) be achieved, and the market can take over. No guarantee of that, of course.

Those pics I posted from the Solar Decathalon back in 2013 ( 2 years ago!!!) and all three FCHV's makers and providers said the same thing then! :lol: :roll:

So at this year's 2015 Decathlon when we meet up... and see the SAME EXACT cars again.. what will be this years pitch and excuse??

"they are coming!!" we promise! :lol:

EDIT: let me add... how's Tesla's SC network and the USA's CHAdeMO/combo station rollout been compared to Hydrogen since 2013? :lol:

I have more Frakenplugs near me then hydrogen!! :mrgreen:

 

[GRA]

The single-digit number of refueling stations you mention primarily in SoCal, is scheduled to increase this year to 20-25 or so in the major California metro areas, and apparently add some more in the NE, although that may be next year. Totals in CA are scheduled to increase to 50 or so next year, increasing every year until there are are 100 or so here, at which point full commercial viability will (it's hoped) be achieved, and the market can take over. No guarantee of that, of course.

Those pics I posted from the Solar Decathalon back in 2013 ( 2 years ago!!!) and all three FCHV's makers and providers said the same thing then! :lol: :roll:

So at this year's 2015 Decathlon when we meet up... and see the SAME EXACT cars again.. what will be this years pitch and excuse??

"they are coming!!" we promise! :lol:

EDIT: let me add... how's Tesla's SC network and the USA's CHAdeMO/combo station rollout been compared to Hydrogen since 2013? :lol:

I have more Frakenplugs near me then hydrogen!! :mrgreen:

Well, let's see. Toyota had scheduled the Mirai to debut here in 3Q 2015, and Honda had/has scheduled their FCV for 2016. They have to have the stations up in time to fuel their cars, because otherwise what good are the cars? Since Toyota is subsidizing something like 18 or 19 of them themselves, I think we can assume that those will arrive on time. As to the general timeline, for anyone who wants to read CA as well as wordlwide H2 deployment plans, issues, etc., see the links I posted several messages back in a reply to Tony.

 

[GRA]

Via ievs:

Hyundai Tucson FCEV Drives 1,480 Miles In 24 Hours

http://insideevs.com/hyundai-tucson-fcev-drives-1480-miles-in-24-hours/

Arnt-Gøran Hartvig and Marius Bornstein set in Germany a new record for distance traveled in 24 hours in a hydrogen fuel cell car.

They drove a Hyundai Tucson ix35 for a 1,480.73 miles (2,383 km) achieving an average of 61.7 mph (nearly 100 km/h) on public roads.

The two were driving 186 miles back and forth (sounds like real-world application…not) between Vatenfall’s hydrogen station in HafenCity, Hamburg, and a Shell hydrogen station in Sachsendamm, Berlin.

In June, their Hyundai Tucson FCV also set a record of 435 miles on a single refuel.

 

[Stoaty]

Via ievs:

The two were driving 186 miles back and forth (sounds like real-world application…not) between Vatenfall’s hydrogen station in HafenCity, Hamburg, and a Shell hydrogen station in Sachsendamm, Berlin.

Very useful if you like visiting hydrogen stations, otherwise, not so much. What a waste of energy in a useless demonstration!

 

[GRA]

Via ievs:

The two were driving 186 miles back and forth (sounds like real-world application…not) between Vatenfall’s hydrogen station in HafenCity, Hamburg, and a Shell hydrogen station in Sachsendamm, Berlin.

Very useful if you like visiting hydrogen stations, otherwise, not so much. What a waste of energy in a useless demonstration!

Pretty much like most record-setting attempts, including Tesla transcontinental drives, around the world flights by electric planes, and so on ad infinitum. OTOH, Interstate 80 starts in downtown San Francisco, and Truckee, the gateway to North Lake Tahoe and numerous ski areas around it, is at (mile) Exit 185. Oddly enough, they're building an H2 station (actually, adding it to an existing Shell station) there for just that reason, the same reason that Tesla built an SC there, as well as the H2 station (also an add-on) that's been built in West Sacramento (Tesla's SCs are in Rocklin/Roseville and Folsom instead). So, depending on how much extra energy is needed to make the climb over Donner summit (7,200+ feet) followed by the 1,400 foot descent into Truckee, it may well be possible for the Tucson to do S.F.-Truckee non-stop in winter. Otherwise, it will fuel up in West Sac. Most people with ICEs fill up before ascending the climb in any case, because gas is a lot cheaper when you're not paying mountain monopoly prices, and it's always nice to have a large fuel reserve in winter, when the freeway may be closed with little warning due to snow or accident for hours or (occasionally) days.

 

[evnow]

Apparently Tucson FCEV buyers are finding it hard to use the vehicle.

This is like having a BEV that can only be charged at Blink QC.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/513010068843714/

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/50910-Why-Fool-Cells-WHY/page10?p=1109815#post1109815

Actually after reading there for a bit I started to feel sad for these owners. These early adopters mean well for environment, but often cannot even use their FCEV for several month now they have chosen to lease an FCEV instead of a BEV.

 

[evnow]

This is priceless. From a facebook posts.

Sounds like MadMax - people struggling to get enough fuel to get buy.

Has anyone fueled up at OCSD yet with H70 (full fill)? Got just enough fuel to get there and back but not there again so I want to make sure.

Tucson, my second week not driving no place to fill, ,left enough to drive when the station opens.

Torrance is "STATION NOT READY" boosters offline as of 8:30 pm on 7/14.

Harbor City is "RECHARGING" with an estimated time of 87 minutes!
No hydrogen fueling in the South Bay!

 

[evnow]

and this ...

I don't know about everyone else, but I simply don't accept the fact that - as I write this - only 2 of 8 "open" Hydrogen stations are online. This infrastructure is nowhere near ready for consumer refueling. The fuel cell vehicles that Hyundai has leased cannot be supported adequately by these poorly managed stations.

I for one did not lease my vehicle to pay $500+ a month so that this grand experiment could be conducted with my research dollars.
I'm about ready to demand they take my FCV back so I can get a vehicle that I can actually drive! Anyone else feeling the same?

 

[GRA]

Hasn't the inadequacy of the current, never intended to be commercial H2 fueling stations been covered repeatedly and in depth, either here or in other threads?

 

[epirali]

Hasn't the inadequacy of the current, never intended to be commercial H2 fueling stations been covered repeatedly and in depth, either here or in other threads?

Yes, but you see that lack of infrastructure has not been resolved in the last four weeks. Therefore its hopeless!!!!

But seriously I think I'd still be kind of miffed if literally was fighting to get my car fueled up. I do wonder how (if at all) Hyundai selected customers of the car and what kind of disclaimers and waivers they made them sign.

 

[JasonA]

I guess you haven't been following our Mirai thread on the Rav forum? :lol:

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1640

Got pretty gnarly over there but I posted all this in that thread... and some still just don't understand the "Hydrogen Hype"

I really feel sorry for all those Tuscon owners.. they really got the screw job.

P.S. I never posted here because Tony's doing an awesome job on this front! So I kept it going over there!

mwalsh decided nogo in the end!

 

[epirali]

I guess you haven't been following our Mirai thread on the Rav forum? :lol:

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1640

Got pretty gnarly over there but I posted all this in that thread... and some still just don't understand the "Hydrogen Hype"

I really feel sorry for all those Tuscon owners.. they really got the screw job.

P.S. I never posted here because Tony's doing an awesome job on this front! So I kept it going over there!

mwalsh decided nogo in the end!

So I am curious, anyone know what the Tucson owners were told, or disclosed, etc? Was there any kind of screening as Toyota seems to be doing?