WetEV said:
GRA said:
WetEV said:
Far more capable. Open your eyes. Look at a map of the world, draw a circle of radius half the range of a hydrogen car around the hydrogen fueling stations currently operational. That is the places hydrogen cars can go. Now draw circles around every Plugshare listed L1 or L2 charger half of the range of an iMiev. Add in circles around your house, your mom's house, your friends, etc. Add more circles around campgrounds and hotels with outlets. And so on. That is the places an iMiev can go. While there are likely a few places a hydrogen car can go that an iMiev can't (as I'm sure you will mention each one again and again), far more of the map of the world is covered by iMiev circles now, and even after spending a billion dollars on 700 hydrogen stations (isn't that about the worldwide total to date?) for the tiny number of people willing to lease or buy $60k+ cars.
We define capable in different terms.
Sure. Lots more people can use BEVs than can use hydrogen cars. Lots more people can afford to use BEVs, as they cost $40,000 less.
Lots more people can afford to use FCEVs (in areas where there's infrastructure) than BEVs of similar range, as the FCEVs cost at least $32,000 less. And lots more people can afford to use ICEVs/HEVs/PHEVs, because they cost many thousands less than either. Haven't we done this round several times before?
GRA said:
WetEV said:
Yes, a very low bar. Both ways. But you can't avoid any point, but are compelled to respond, right?
And you're not?
I'm not required to get the last word in every conversation. Oh, I know that is a good debate tactic. [
Yet, you did try. Your turn.
GRA said:
WetEV said:
The government meaning the taxpayers. I doubt it, long term. Manufacturers meaning will add to the price of cars being sold, or reduce profits, or even more likely from the taxpayers. Again, I doubt it. Sorry, but I don't see how the economics can possibly work as hydrogen is and will be far more expensive than electric power for the foreseeable future. Hydrogen stations are far more expensive than public charging stations, and will be for the foreseeable future.
I don't see governments supporting public charging long term either, and companies have already had over 5.5 years to figure out how to make them profitable while providing electricity cheaper than gas, and have signally failed to do so.
Wrong standard. As most charging in the home or work, public charging is more about convenience than cost. This will become more true with time, as ranges increase.[/quote]
Only for people with home/work charging, and as I've pointed out numerous times, most of the world's urban driving population doesn't have that. Decades from now, maybe they will.
GRA said:
WetEV said:
iMiev sales to date worldwide are about 38,000. Far more popular because it is a far more realistic car for most people to own.
The fact that it's been on sale for longer, is cheaper to buy and is far more acceptable to consumers in some countries with conditions very different from the U.S. might have just a teensy bit to do with it, don't you think? Let's see how things look when the Mirai's been on sale for the same length of time, corrected for the price difference.
Corrected for the price difference? What exactly do you mean?
Yes, iMiev is far more acceptable to consumers than overpriced hydrogen cars.[/quote]
I mean, correct for the 5x difference in EPA range, and equipment. You've refer to the Mirai as an econobox, and unlike the iMiEV it's most definitely not. It comes fully loaded with no options, and while it's certainly not a luxury car, it's several classes above the iMiEV.
GRA said:
WetEV said:
Sure, from the legal standpoint, hydrogen cars are a ZEV. That is, after all, the reason why manufacturers are hyping them. The manufacturers get more ZEV credits from hydrogen cars than from BEVs. BEVs, unlike hydrogen cars, sell in places without ZEV credits.
Yet they don't except in miniscule numbers, without credits and/or subsidies (same as FCEVs).
Without credits or subsidies, BEVs are better choices for some drivers. Sure, a small fraction with 70 mile ranges, but the fraction that would be happy with a BEV will grow with increasing range. And the fraction that are real BEV candidates that actually own a BEV will grow with time. More convenient, less expensive.[/quote]
Again, more conveinent only applies to that fraction with access to guranteed charging at home or work, which is less expensive than buying gas. I
know we've covered this numerous times already.
Without credits and subsidies, hydrogen is both less convenient and more expensive. Sure, the latter might change with changing technology. But I don't see how the low cost of a BEV, the cheapest car in total ownership cost in much of the USA, is going to be beat by hydrogen power. Less convenient, more expensive.[/quote]
I do see how it could, depending on the individual's circumstances and how things develop, and until we've reached much further along in development, want to proceed with every reasonably likely option.
GRA said:
WetEV said:
Most of the world's urban inhabitants lack hydrogen fueling, and will for the foreseeable future. It would be far cheaper and safer to build out public charging than building out hydrogen fueling stations. After all, what is the cost of a home L1 charger? A few hundred dollars, including installation? Somehow that seems like a solvable problem, unlike hydrogen fueling stations.
Location, location, location. Installing even L1 charging at every parking spot will take decades, and will probably be far more expensive and disruptive than installing H2 stations at existing gas stations. But both should go ahead, until one or both can serve everyone. It won't happen before mid-century at the earliest, and maybe not for 50 years.
I'm not even close to convinced the L1/L2 charging is more expensive per car than hydrogen. Free Tesla Model S 100P's are currently cheaper than hydrogen filling per car supported. When it gets down to free iMievs for everyone, let us know. Then reduce the cost by a factor of 10, and hydrogen is still 10 times more expensive than L1/L2 charging.[/quote]
Of course it's not cheaper now, if you're talking about mass quantities of cars. No one has ever said it would be. But where's the potential major step reductions in charging cost? Real mass production of EVSEs will lower the price somewhat, but electricity isn't going to get a lot less expensive no matter how it's produced, and it's not as if the rest of the electric infrastructure isn't mature. By comparison, making and storing renewable H2 is still at the infant stage, with lots of room for cost reductions. No, it will never be cheaper than a BEV
if a BEV fully meets someone's needs. The issue is what it costs compared to the other options when a BEV doesn't meet someone's needs.