Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[GetOffYourGas]

*******

Just-Drive-The-Prius(tm)

$0.0625 per mile = $2.50 per gal / 40mpg

*******

2012 Toyota RAV4 EV

$0.06236 per mile for NRG /eVgo public DC charging

*******

{Leaf}

$0.06236 per mile for NRG /eVgo use only

Leaf charged at home.

1/(3 miles/kWh) * $0.12/kW (national average)

$0.04 per mile for home charging.

While I sleep, most of the time.

Put this way, the eVgo pricing seems incredibly reasonable. Yet people seem to be throwing a fit over it, calling it "price gouging" etc.

The question is, can eVgo be a profitable going concern at these rates, while continuing to expand their network? If so, that's great news for EVs. Not so great for Hydrogen.

For another data point, ChargePoint rates in Syracuse are $0.49/kWh.

1/(3 miles/kWh) * $0.49/kWh

$0.16333 per mile for ChargePoint! :shock:

 

[GRA]

A Prius only gets 40 mpg? Since when? Gen 3 was rated at 50 mpg combined, and Gen 4 at 52 or 56. At my usual station's current $2.54/gal, for Gen 4 that's $0.0488 or $0.0454/mile.

Meanwhile, via GCC:

Ballard Power signs deal for production of fuel cell stacks in China; est. $168M over 5 years; buses and commercial vehicles

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/07/ballard-power-signs-deal-for-production-of-fuel-cell-stacks-in-china-est-168m-over-5-years-buses-and.html

 

[WetEV]

A Prius only gets 40 mpg?

Depends very much on driving pattern, and also driver.

Short commute is hard to get anything close to rated MPG, as the engine runs just to warm up, near 40 MPG in winter. Seattle to Portland in summer, averaged 55 MPG in a 2006 Prius.

EPA is 48 city 45 highway 47 combined.

 

[TonyWilliams]

A Prius only gets 40 mpg? Since when? Gen 3 was rated at 50 mpg combined, and Gen 4 at 52 or 56. At my usual station's current $2.54/gal, for Gen 4 that's $0.0488 or $0.0454/mile.

I only used 3 miles per kWh for the RAV4 EV, when it can most certainly do better than that. Also, for the gasoline car, I have not included oil changes, etc.

By just changing the RAV4 to 4 miles per kWh, I can once again match your inflated Prius data with ONLY public DC charging.

Charging at home in Washington state with 6.5 cent per kWh electricity is a whole 'nother ball game. The whole idea is not to cherry pick the absolute best case scenario for whatever favored solution you may support.

$0.25 per mile = Toyota hydrogen car that can go 60 miles on one KG of hydrogen at $15 per KG.

 

[GRA]

A Prius only gets 40 mpg? Since when? Gen 3 was rated at 50 mpg combined, and Gen 4 at 52 or 56. At my usual station's current $2.54/gal, for Gen 4 that's $0.0488 or $0.0454/mile.

I only used 3 miles per kWh for the RAV4 EV, when it can most certainly do better than that. Also, for the gasoline car, I have not included oil changes, etc.

By just changing the RAV4 to 4 miles per kWh, I can once again match your inflated Prius data with ONLY public DC charging.

Charging at home in Washington state with 6.5 cent per kWh electricity is a whole 'nother ball game. The whole idea is not to cherry pick the absolute best case scenario for whatever favored solution you may support.

$0.25 per mile = Toyota hydrogen car that can go 60 miles on one KG of hydrogen at $15 per KG.

Quite so, which is why I use EPA numbers - I exceed them on the highway, and usually at least equal them around town, but that's me. Hypermilers will do better, and stoplight drag racers or Car & Driver editors will do worse. But let's not forget that the Mirai lessor pays nothing for their H2 for the first three years, and IIRR buyers get $15k off to pay for H2, although IMO anyone who buys an FCEV now without having any idea whether H2 will be competitive with gas after they've spent their $15k on H2, is nuts. While that's hardly a long-term commercial proposition, and no one's claiming that H2 is cost-effective now, it's rather deceptive to quote prices for H2 when no customer is actually paying it. Here's the actual cost per mile for H2 for a customer during that period: $0.00 per mile. Isn't playing with numbers fun?

 

[Marktm]

I charge 95%+ at home - OpenEVSE Level II. To date - approx 3000 miles - using 750 kwh at 10 cents/kwh => 2.5 cents/mile. Used QC a few times - believe it will be at least double the cost (maybe triple) - waiting for the first bill.

 

[TonyWilliams]

it's rather deceptive to quote prices for H2 when no customer is actually paying it. Here's the actual cost per mile for H2 for a customer during that period: $0.00 per mile. Isn't playing with numbers fun?

If we are using only EPA, then the RAV4 is closer to 3 miles per kWh, than 4.

If I have a Nissan LEAF or BMW i3 with a "no charge-to-charge" card, the cost per mile is... $0.00.

Silly comparisons.

 

[RegGuheert]

The Emeryville site referred to above is operated by AC Transit, which AFAIA is the largest user of FCEV buses in the state. Now, about your classification of my mentioning the 33% H2 RFS as 'repeating nonsense'. . . ? Oh, the Appendix lists the stations which use or are intended to use 100% renewable H2, for those who might be interested. There are 8 so far, not counting the dem/val site at OCSD in Fountain Valley that decommissioned.

It seems your claims are supported by CA's official numbers. I'm still skeptical of these numbers, however. What does it mean for a station to offer "100% Renewable" hydrogen? I seriously doubt that is even possible in today's world. Simply put, we are almost-certainly utilizing MUCH more fossil fuel to enable a few people to drive FCVs on H2 from "100% renewable H2" than if they had simple purchased and driven a gasser.

 

[RegGuheert]

While that's hardly a long-term commercial proposition, and no one's claiming that H2 is cost-effective now, it's rather deceptive to quote prices for H2 when no customer is actually paying it.

Hiding the actual costs of H2 from the consumer is not the same as H2 having a zero cost.

It would be one thing if CA was subsidizing H2 with the hopes that it would one day offer the the lowest-cost solution. Unfortunately, it will likely remain the highest-cost solution forever.

Ask yourself this: Today, a taxpayer can purchase an H2 FCV and their personal expense for the fuel will be indistinguishable from zero since the percentage of the overall population is also indistinguishable from zero. But since any growth in H2 penetration rate for personal transportation applications will require continued subsidies, now and in the future, how free will this free ride be if the penetration rates get to 50% or 100%.

The massive costs (both economic and environmental) of H2 fuel are real. Let's all keep that fully in mind as we decide how we want power our society. We need to apply H2 only where it offers real economic and environmental benefits. Personal transportation will likely never be a good fit for H2.

 

[GRA]

it's rather deceptive to quote prices for H2 when no customer is actually paying it. Here's the actual cost per mile for H2 for a customer during that period: $0.00 per mile. Isn't playing with numbers fun?

If we are using only EPA, then the RAV4 is closer to 3 miles per kWh, than 4.

If I have a Nissan LEAF or BMW i3 with a "no charge-to-charge" card, the cost per mile is... $0.00.

Silly comparisons.

But real ones.

 

[GRA]

The Emeryville site referred to above is operated by AC Transit, which AFAIA is the largest user of FCEV buses in the state. Now, about your classification of my mentioning the 33% H2 RFS as 'repeating nonsense'. . . ? Oh, the Appendix lists the stations which use or are intended to use 100% renewable H2, for those who might be interested. There are 8 so far, not counting the dem/val site at OCSD in Fountain Valley that decommissioned.

It seems your claims are supported by CA's official numbers. I'm still skeptical of these numbers, however. What does it mean for a station to offer "100% Renewable" hydrogen? I seriously doubt that is even possible in today's world. Simply put, we are almost-certainly utilizing MUCH more fossil fuel to enable a few people to drive FCVs on H2 from "100% renewable H2" than if they had simple purchased and driven a gasser.

Feel free to read the report, which details the standards for how H2 can be made,and also mentions some of the LCFS numbers achieved by the methods that have been certified as qualifying for REC. The state really isn't going to accept paper numbers for this, as they're paying for most of it. In the case of the Emeryville station, the electricity for on-site electrolysis is generated by on-site PV, and they're scheduled to upgrade the storage capacity, from 60 kg. to 350 kg. in the 4th quarter. I think, but am not certain, that most of the other 100% renewable stations in use/scheduled in the previous round are using some form of biomass.

 

[GRA]

While that's hardly a long-term commercial proposition, and no one's claiming that H2 is cost-effective now, it's rather deceptive to quote prices for H2 when no customer is actually paying it.

Hiding the actual costs of H2 from the consumer is not the same as H2 having a zero cost.

Have I ever said otherwise?

It would be one thing if CA was subsidizing H2 with the hopes that it would one day offer the the lowest-cost solution. Unfortunately, it will likely remain the highest-cost solution forever.

Reg, we've been over this numerous times - the requirement isn't that it will be the lowest cost solution, but that it will be competitive with fossil fuels, whether through cost reductions, carbon/other taxes or a combination.

Ask yourself this: Today, a taxpayer can purchase an H2 FCV and their personal expense for the fuel will be indistinguishable from zero since the percentage of the overall population is also indistinguishable from zero. But since any growth in H2 penetration rate for personal transportation applications will require continued subsidies, now and in the future, how free will this free ride be if the penetration rates get to 50% or 100%.

That will only happen if the cost of H2 and FCEVs both come down. After all, the auto manufacturers are picking up the tab because they believe they will and both will become profitable without subsidies, not because they're all green and cuddly. If H2/FCEVs can't achieve that, then they'll fail.

The massive costs (both economic and environmental) of H2 fuel are real. Let's all keep that fully in mind as we decide how we want power our society. We need to apply H2 only where it offers real economic and environmental benefits. Personal transportation will likely never be a good fit for H2.

We know that's your opinion, Reg. Other people have different opinions. As I've said many times, I'm neutral - until all the ZEV techs and/or carbon neutral or negative biofuels achieve a much greater degree of maturity, I believe it's simply too early to make a choice, and we should proceed with any that have a reasonable chance of consumer acceptance and environmental benefit.

 

[GRA]

All via GCC:

DOE announces FY17 SBIR Phase I Release 1 topics; includes fuel cell catalysts and hydrogen delivery

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/07/doe-announces-fy17-sbir-phase-i-release-1-topics-includes-fuel-cell-catalysts-and-hydrogen-delivery.html

. . . The fuel cell subtopic includes novel, durable supports for low-platinum group metal (PGM) catalysts for polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) fuel cells. The hydrogen delivery subtopic focuses on metal hydride materials for compression. . . .

This subtopic seeks approaches to develop a technique that will enable high throughput discovery of metal hydrides for high-pressure hydrogen compression.

Reversible metal hydride materials have great potential to improve the reliability of compressors at hydrogen refueling stations at reasonable cost, but are challenged by efficiency. To achieve the pressures of interest at refueling stations (875 bar), metal hydrides typically require heating well above 100°C as well as substantial cooling to temperatures ranging from 20 to -10°C. Few materials are capable of such pressures, and many are significantly impacted by hysteresis effects that diminish their performance over time. Even at pressures below 200 bar, the efficiency of metal hydride compression is significantly lower than that of mechanical compression.

Research is needed in the discovery of new metal hydride materials for high-pressure compression. . . .

Ballard signs follow-on technology solutions agreement for MEA development with leading global automotive OEM

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/07/20160721-ballard.html

. . . Under the contract Ballard will provide expertise in proton exchange membrane (PEM) fuel cell technology in order to advance the customer’s membrane electrode assembly (MEA) development program related to future versions of its engine for fuel cell vehicles.

This follow-on contract involves Technology Solutions work that began with this customer in 2014, including technology transfer. MEAs are a key component of each PEM fuel cell and the MEA-related work in this customer program is being undertaken by Ballard engineers and test technicians in conjunction with the OEM’s in-house fuel cell technical team. The program is expected to be completed later in 2016. . . .

From my occasional 'probably out in the distant future, and possibly never' file:

Duke study: serpentinized rock in oceans may be large, overlooked source of free hydrogen gas

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/07/20160721-duke.html

Rocks formed beneath the ocean floor by fast-spreading tectonic plates may be a large and previously overlooked source of free hydrogen gas, a new Duke University study suggests. Their paper is published in the journal Geophysical Research Letters.

Recent discoveries of free hydrogen gas, which was once thought to be very rare, have been made near slow-spreading tectonic plates deep beneath Earth’s continents and under the sea. . . .

UK team produces hydrogen from fescue grass via photocatalytic reforming

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/07/20160721-cardiff.html

A team of researchers from the UK’s Cardiff University’s Cardiff Catalysis Institute and Queen’s University Belfast have shown that significant amounts of hydrogen can be unlocked from fescue grass—without significant pre-treatment—using sunlight and a metal-loaded titania photocatalyst. . . .

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Anybody go to a trade show in Long Beach CA back in May that included this stand alone clean H2 station?

http://www.mcphy.com/en/news/releases/hydrogen-mobility-as-part-of-simplefueltm-team-mcphy-energy-na-will-display-a-refuelling-solution-at-act-expo-in-long-beach-ca-from-may-3-5-1623/

Apparently, this is what MA is aiming for as its featured in our next clean cities meeting. I can't object to it since its supposed to be solar powered and self contained.

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Unitel Technologies to supply methanol reformer for H2 and hydrogen sulfide plant to SE Asian company

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/07/20160722-unitel.html

Unitel Technologies has been engaged by a major Southeast Asian conglomerate to supply its methanol reforming technology and engineering know-how for the construction, start-up and operation of an on-site Unitel M2H (1,000 Nm3/hour) hydrogen production system and a downstream hydrogen sulfide plant (H2S).

Hydrogen sulfide is produced by reacting hydrogen (in this case, from the M2H unit) with molten sulfur at elevated temperatures. H2S is used to make mercaptans, other downstream chemicals and for mining and metallurgy applications. The balance of the hydrogen from the M2H unit will be used for other applications. . . .

Using methanol to make hydrogen for decentralized operations is an option when pipeline natural gas or LPG are not readily available. Methanol is an internationally traded liquid product that can be easily transported to remote points of use by truck or train. Its low cost and availability make it an attractive energy vector, Unitel suggests. . . .

Small-scale self-contained hydrogen plants offer a substitute to piped hydrogen and tube trailers for a variety of low-volume applications in industries such as electronics, steel, food, chemicals, pharmaceuticals and glass. Hydrogen fueling and fuel cells are also potential future uses.

 

[GRA]

Via ABG:

In deep with a hydrogen vehicle expert: 'There is something different this time'
We sit down for a talk with Dr. Joan Ogden after a ten-year gap.

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/07/22/hydrogen-vehicle-expert-joan-ogden-q-a/

 

[GRA]

Via ABG:

Hyundai's all-new 2018 hydrogen-powered CUV comes into focus
The Winter Olympics will set the stage for the new fuel cell vehicle

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/07/25/more-details-emerge-on-hyundais-all-new-2018-hydrogen-cuv/

. . . We've since heard that Hyundai believes that a CUV/SUV model offers the best option for customers buying a fuel cell vehicle. Earlier this year, Hyundai's head of the company's fuel cell research, Sae-Hoon Kim, said that, "all customer feedback says range and boot space are the priorities."

Yup.

The Intrado concept had a supposed range of around 375 miles. What that would translate to outside of the fictional auto show universe is unknown, but it sounds like Hyundai is ready to make all of this more real

 

[ydnas7]

That next Hydrogen Hyundai had better be free (as in free beer) because its Hydrogen infrastructure costs are greater than providing free Tesla 3 ) or GM Bolt or Nissan LEAF 2.

 

[GRA]

Lab research with the usual caveats, via GCC:

Researchers identify pentlandite as equally efficient alternative to platinum for hydrogen production

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/07/20160727-pentlandite.html

Researchers have identified artificially-produced pentlandite (a natural ore, Fe4.5Ni4.5S8) as a direct ‘rock’ electrode without the need of further surface modifications for hydrogen evolution under acidic conditions. The pentlandite provides high activity and stability at low overpotential for H2 generation. According to their study, artificial pentlandite is just as efficient as the platinum electrodes commonly used today for the electrolytic production of hydrogen from water, but is lower cost. . . .

Also GCC:

Broad-Ocean Motor in strategic collaboration with Ballard; $28.3M investment, 9.9% ownership; initial order for 10,000 fuel cell vehicles

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/07/20160727-ballard.html

. . . Founded in 1994, Broad-Ocean is a global manufacturer of motors that power small and specialized electric machinery for electric vehicles (EVs), including buses, commercial vehicles and passenger vehicles, and for heating, ventilation and air conditioning (HVAC). Broad-Ocean has 4 business units: EV; Rotating Electrical for Vehicles; HVAC; and EV Operations Platform. . . .

Broad-Ocean’s fourth business unit—EV Operations Platform—operates a commercial vehicle leasing business in China through which it buys new energy vehicles, including electric vehicles, and subsequently leases these buses and commercial vehicles. Broad-Ocean has now expanded this business to include fuel cell vehicles.

On 18 July 2016, Broad-Ocean signed an agreement with Guangdong Nation Synergy Hydrogen Power Technology Co. Ltd. relating to the purchase of 10,000 fuel cell vehicles, including buses and delivery trucks, all of which are expected to have Ballard’s leading PEM fuel cell technology inside. . . .

It appears that Chinese regulators have no problem with FCEV safety, as long as the company is Chinese instead of Japanese (similar to their attitude to battery safety, where they won't certify South Korean companies' LMO tech, only LiFePO4 as used by Chinese companies). In other words, pure protectionism.

 

[ydnas7]

....
It appears that Chinese regulators have no problem with FCEV safety, as long as the company is Chinese instead of Japanese (similar to their attitude to battery safety, where they won't certify South Korean companies' LMO tech, only LiFePO4 as used by Chinese companies). In other words, pure protectionism.

Chinese love Hydrogen, thats why they produce so much of it from Coal.

Chinese banned type 4 pressure tanks due to inspection failures from their own fleet of CNG taxis. Type 3 is safe, type 4 is banned due to demonstrated safety problems. Toyota has chosen type 4 tanks for Mirai, Nissan was using type 3 tanks for its earlier H2 vehicles. Its not a nationality issue, its an intrinsic safety issue. Polymer liners have intrinsic safety issues compared to aluminum liners.