Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[GRA]

Happy "National Hydrogen Day" everyone. ;-)
Here, too http://www.hydrogenfuelcellday.org/ ; very disheartening. :-\


ps. Anyone know if the CAFCP receives any public funding? I'm shocked -- shocked! -- that I can't find that information on their website.

Don't know, although I suspect it would be minimal. As the website indicates, CAFCP is a collaboration between auto manufacturers, fuel providers, technology (fuel cell) providers and various govt. organizations including CARB and CEC, each working in their particular areas.

Regardless of the issue or matter, CaFCP and its members are engaged on a day-to-day basis to move fuel cell electric vehicles closer to market.

• Automotive members provide fuel cell passenger vehicles that are placed in demonstration programs, where they are tested in real-world driving conditions.
  
  Energy members work to build hydrogen stations within an infrastructure that is safe, convenient and fits into the community.
  
  Fuel cell technology members provide fuel cells for passenger vehicles and transit buses.
  
  Government members lay the groundwork for demonstration programs by facilitating steps to creating a hydrogen fueling infrastructure.

http://cafcp.org/aboutus/whoweare

Of interest in your second link was this announcement:

MURRAY HILL, N.J. and NEW PROVIDENCE, N.J., Oct. 8, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- Linde North America, Inc. today announced that its second retail hydrogen fueling station for fuel cell automobiles in California is now operational. Coinciding with National Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Day, the new station opened for business at the San Juan Capistrano Gas and Auto Services located on Junipero Serra Road in San Juan Capistrano.

"This newly operational fueling station follows the one we opened at the Ramos Oil Company station in West Sacramento earlier this year," said Mike Beckman,vice president of Hydrogen Fueling-Linde North America, Inc. "The San Juan Capistrano station is our first station in Southern California. We expect to open another five stations in California during the next year, starting in the San Francisco Bay Area."

 

[GRA]

Via GCC; lab work, so years away if ever, but solid-state storage which will be the next step beyond expensive high-pressure tanks if it can be commercialized:

Sandia, Berkeley and Los Alamos labs in $9M effort for automotive onboard solid-state hydrogen storage; HyMARC

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/10/20151008-hymarc.html

Sandia National Laboratories will lead a new tri-lab consortium to address unsolved scientific challenges in the development of viable solid-state materials for storage of hydrogen onboard vehicles. Better onboard hydrogen storage could lead to more reliable and economic hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

Called the Hydrogen Materials—Advanced Research Consortium (HyMARC), the program is funded by the US Department of Energy’s (DOE) Fuel Cell Technologies Office within the Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy at $3 million per year for three years ($9 million total), with the possibility of renewal. In addition to Sandia, the core team includes Lawrence Livermore and Lawrence Berkeley national laboratories.

HyMarc is one of three multi-lab consortia being put forward by the DOE in the hydrogen arena; the other two are FC-PAD (Fuel Cell Performance and Durability) and H2RENEW (Hydrogen Production from Renewables).

The HyMarc consortium will address the gaps in solid-state hydrogen storage by leveraging recent advances in predictive multiscale modeling, high-resolution in situ characterization and material synthesis. Past efforts, which synthesized and characterized hundreds of materials for solid-state hydrogen storage, laid a solid foundation for current work including the understanding of the kinetics and thermodynamics governing the physical properties of these types of storage methods. . . .

Current hydrogen storage misses capacity, cost targets. In the past five years, fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs) have gone from a concept to reality. Automakers are starting to roll out commercial FCEVs and investments are being made to deploy hydrogen refueling infrastructure, especially in early markets, such as California and the Northeast.

However, the commercial FCEV light-duty vehicles are designed for 700-bar compressed hydrogen storage on board the vehicle and hydrogen-refueling infrastructure is being deployed for compressed hydrogen refueling. Although compressed hydrogen provides a near-term pathway to commercialization, this storage method falls short of DOE targets for onboard hydrogen storage, particularly for volumetric hydrogen energy density and cost. . . .

Thermodynamics, kinetics challenges. Although HyMARC will consider all types of hydrogen storage materials, two categories of solid-state materials, novel sorbents and high-density metal hydrides, are of particular interest. These materials have the potential to meet DOE targets to deliver hydrogen at the right pressure and energy density to power a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle.

A key challenge is the thermodynamics—the energy and conditions necessary to release hydrogen during vehicle operation. Sorbents, which soak up hydrogen in nanometer-scale pores, bind hydrogen too weakly. In contrast, metal hydrides, which store hydrogen in chemical bonds, have the opposite problem—they bind the hydrogen too strongly.

The kinetics, the rate at which a chemical process occurs, is also an issue for high-density metal hydrides. These materials undergo complicated reactions during hydrogen release and uptake that can involve transitions between liquid, solid and gaseous phases. In some cases, the chemical reactions can form intermediates that trap hydrogen.

The consortium will explore several innovative ideas for solving these problems. The overall concept is to synthesize well-controlled materials to serve as model systems and develop experimental platforms for systematically probing key processes that limit performance. . . .

Also GCC:

Toyota to unveil new fuel cell vehicle concept; focus on distributed generation as well as transportation

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/10/20151008-toyota.html

With its fuel cell Mirai already on sale, Toyota Motor is continuing to push the fuel cell envelope with the introduction of a new fuel cell concept at the upcoming Tokyo Motor Show at the end of this month. The new Toyota FCV Plus is a fuel cell concept that embodies Toyota’s vision of a hydrogen-based society. . . .
Toyota envisages a sustainable society in which hydrogen energy is in widespread use—a society it says is embodied by the new FCV Plus concept vehicle, which functions as a distributed power generation system as well as a vehicle.

Clean generation of hydrogen from a wide range of primary energy sources will make local, self-sufficient power generation a global reality, and fuel cell vehicles will take on a new role as power sources within their communities, Toyota proposes. Toyota’s aim is to add an all-new sense of purpose to the automobile by turning fuel cell vehicles from eco-cars into energy-cars.

In addition to the vehicle’s own hydrogen tank, the car can also generate electricity directly from hydrogen stored outside the vehicle. The vehicle can thus be transformed into a stable source of electric power for use at home or away. When the car is not being used as a means of transport, it shares its power generation capabilities with communities as part of the local infrastructure.

The car’s fuel cell stack can be reused as an electricity generating device, transcending the traditional functions of cars. Put to versatile uses around the world, these stacks could contribute significantly to local communities, Toyota suggests. . . .

 

[GRA]

Via GCR:

Full-Retail Hydrogen Stations Now Coming Online In California

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100395_full-retail-hydrogen-stations-now-coming-online-in-california

There are only a handful of hydrogen fueling stations currently operating in California, but that number is set to grow in the very near term. That's the assessment of the California Fuel Cell Partnership (CAFCP), which issued an update on station construction in the Golden State yesterday, in recognition of "National Hydrogen Day."

California was chosen by Hyundai, Toyota, and Honda as the U.S. launching point for their production hydrogen fuel-cell cars because it was the only state with any fueling infrastructure to speak of. And the state government has committed to funding the construction of new hydrogen stations over the coming decade.

The CAFCP says it is aware of roughly 50 stations in operation, under construction, or somewhere in the permitting or regulatory approval process. As of today, however, only two stations currently meet the group's criteria for what it calls "full retail" status. [GRA note: Presumably West Sacramento and the just completed San Juan Capistrano]. That means they are equipped to dispense hydrogen, accept all forms of payment that would be used at a typical gas station, and have no access restrictions.

In addition, six more stations are in operation but not selling hydrogen to retail customers on an unrestricted basis, the CAFCP says. This includes the handful of stations previously built for demonstration purposes, research, and to service pilot programs for automakers. . . .

A further six stations are undergoing a "commissioning" process, meaning they are being tested and awaiting approval from the relevant authorities to sell hydrogen to customers.

Beyond that, the CAFCP says there are 15 more stations under construction, and 17 that have received funding, but have not started construction.

Finally, there are seven stations pending site acquisition, or relocation from an existing site. . . .

I've been watching developments at my local station, and all the underground work seems to have been completed: piping, tanks etc. Above ground dispensers haven't been installed yet, but the piping and protective bollards are in place. Work stalled for a couple of weeks in late August or early September, but I have no idea if that was due to permitting, inspections, waiting for equipment or what have you. Then it picked up again in mid-September, but construction has been pretty leisurely for whatever reason. I suspect the Oct. 31st deadline to qualify for the max. O&M subsidies will see the remaining work get done a lot faster.

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

DOE awards more than $20M to advance fuel cell technologies; new report highlights strong market growth

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/10/20151009-doe.html

The US Department of Energy (DOE) has awarded more than $20 million to 10 projects to advance fuel cell and hydrogen technologies, and to enable early adoption of fuel cell applications such as light-duty fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs) (DE-FOA-0001224, earlier post).

The announcement of the latest investment come along with release of a new DOE report—“Fuel Cell Technologies Market Report 2014”—showing the fuel cell industry is continuing to grow at an unprecedented rate, totaling more than $2.2 billion in sales in 2014. The report describes data compiled in 2015 on trends in the fuel cell industry for 2014 with some comparison to previous years. . . .

Seven of the projects address the hydrogen and fuel cells research and development area including hydrogen production via microbial biomass conversion; low platinum group metal catalyst development for fuel cell applications; development of integrated intelligent hydrogen dispensers; and hydrogen delivery pipeline manufacturing.

Three projects were selected to address early market and demonstration. These include the demonstration of mobile hydrogen refueling technology to address the lack of widespread hydrogen fueling stations; and fuel cell-powered range extenders for light-duty hybrid electric vehicles.

In addition, the city of Ithaca, New York has proposed to become home to one of the first commercial hydrogen-electrolyzer fueling stations in the northeastern United States and to ramp up outreach through the use of FCEVs. . . .

Direct Link to DoE report mentioned above: http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/10/f27/fcto_2014_market_report.pdf

 

[GRA]

Semi-OT, but related to an earlier discussion (see pg. 301), via ievs:

NRG Restructures Its Business – Money-Losing EVSE Division Shifted To GreenCo.

http://insideevs.com/nrg-restructures-business-money-losing-evse-division-shifted-greenco/

. . . NRG CEO David Crane said: “Now is neither the time to abandon GreenCo nor to transfer its full value to someone else, but it is very much the time to impose a new higher level of financial rigor on GreenCo befitting the type of capital discipline imposed on entrepreneurial startups by venture capitalists. . . .”

The electric charging division, EVgo, which we believe is a money-losing division, will be included in GreenCo together with solar.

Only time will tell whether this means lower investment and slower expansion of the charging network, but we are pretty sure this move is a result of fulfilling a $100 million dollar legal commitment the company was forced to employ by the government as penance for some prior wrongdoing (over-charging of Californians during the energy crisis of 2000-2001 on their monthly bills). . . .

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

European working group led by Intelligent Energy to develop 90kW automotive EC fuel cell stack for mass manufacture

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/10/20151013-ie.html

Intelligent Energy will lead a pan-European industry working group to develop its proprietary 90kW EC (evaporatively cooled, earlier post) fuel cell automotive technology in the funded project called VolumetriQ.

VolumetriQ is a three-year program that will deliver a blueprint for stack suitability for mass manufacture and potential future industrialization. Funded by €5 million (US$5.7 million) from the European program FCH JU (Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking, the target is to develop fuel cell stacks that can be manufactured in high volumes for use in hydrogen fuel cell vehicles by 2020.

In addition to the lead partner Intelligent Energy, the project will involve four industrial partners; Johnson Matthey Fuel Cells, Solvay Speciality Polymers, ElringKlinger and Pretexo; as well as academic input from CNRS Montpellier. Furthermore, BMW Group and Daimler will participate in the project to set out the stack requirements.

The program outputs must demonstrate cost reduction, and advance manufacturing technology with optimized component detail designs. . . .

Also via GCC:

New JV pushes hydrogen infrastructure expansion in Germany; ~400 stations by 2023; $455M investment

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/10/20151013-h2.html

Six industrial companies in Germany—Air Liquide, Daimler, Linde, OMV, Shell and Total—have formed a cross-sector joint venture, H2 Mobility Deutschland GmbH & Co. KG, to support a staged expansion of hydrogen filling stations across Germany to bring the total to around 400 stations by 2023.

The Berlin-based company has started operations and is working in preparation for Stage One of the joint action plan. This envisages the accelerated set-up of 100 filling stations over the next few years. Senior representatives of the H2 Mobility venture partners met today at launch talks held with Federal Minister of Transport Alexander Dobrindt and discussed the next steps. The industry and government partners have reinforced their commitment by signing a memorandum of understanding on hydrogen filling stations for Germany. . . .

The H2 Mobility action plan envisages a Germany-wide network of H2 stations by 2023, which would make Germany the first country to offer an inter-regional network where fuel cell vehicles (FCEVs) can fill up with hydrogen. Investments of around €400 million (US$455 million) in total are planned. . . .

A recent post described research in solid-state H2 storage, but it appears that there's some commercialization already. A longish but necessary excerpt, not really suitable for summarizing, via GCC:

Hydrexia and HyGear partner on low-cost hydrogen distribution in Europe; solid state storage and delivery

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/10/20151013-hydrexia.html

Australia-based hydrogen solid state storage and distribution company Hydrexia has entered an agreement with Netherlands-based HyGear, supplier of industrial gases and on-site generation systems, to supply hydrogen in Europe. The hydrogen will be produced by HyGear’s small-scale Hy.GEN steam methane reforming (SMR) facilities located across Europe. . . .

Hydrexia solid-state storage distribution trailers deliver hydrogen to smaller customers situated around the Hy.GEN hub, which would otherwise not be good candidates for onsite generation. Ground-mounted, solid-state storage systems (magnesium hydrides) provide buffer and backup storage for the Hy.Gen backup operations, at about half the CAPEX of traditional hydrogen tube trailers.

They also provide reduced OPEX costs, operating at low pressure and being directly refilled by the onsite Hy.GEN system, eliminating the need for trucked in high pressure hydrogen to replenish backup storage.

Hydrexia storage systems. Hydrexia’s solid-state ground storage product is a scalable skid-based solution designed for industrial and energy customer sites that currently use multi-cylinder packs or tube trailers for hydrogen supply or backup. Metal hydride storage vessels are packaged together into a variety of configurations to optimize storage capacity and flow rates to satisfy customer requirements. The balance of plant system provides the required thermal management, interfaces and controls for an autonomous hydrogen storage and delivery system.

Mobile Delivery Products. The solid-state trailer product is optimized for high hydrogen storage density and low delivery cost. The trailer design can deliver up to 900 kg of H2—more than three times the capacity of a standard bulk tube trailer used by industrial gas companies today.

At the filling station, the trailer is filled with hydrogen at low pressure (up to 10 bar). At the customer site, the trailer is connected to Hydrexia’s balance of plant system, which supplies the necessary thermal management and controls for autonomous hydrogen delivery to the customer site.

According to Hydrexia, its systems are about half the capital cost ($/kg-H2) of compressed hydrogen storage. The Hydrexia products can provide up to four times the storage density of compressed hydrogen, which reduces footprint and simplifies siting. The systems operate at low pressure (up to 10bar), which provides superior safety. Hydrexia says that its ground storage products will be available for commercial deliveries starting Q1 2016. . . .

The mobile delivery products are said to be commercially available a bit later, in Q2 2016. The rest of the article details Hygear's on-site SMR production methods. This is exactly the kind of cost breakthrough that will be needed to make H2 commercially viable as an auto fuel. Now we'll have to see if they can meet their claims.

 

[finman100]

so with all these articles...where does it show electricity used to accomplish all of the 'magic'? I thought so.

 

[Stoaty]

Toyota doubles down on fool cells:

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/toyota-phase-out-gas-powered-vehicles-doubling-down-hydrogen-n444406

 

[GRA]

so with all these articles...where does it show electricity used to accomplish all of the 'magic'? I thought so.

See the various links/articles to efficiency improvements in electrolysis, research on photochemical/thermochemical production of H2, California's 33% RFS for vehicle H2, etc. throughout this thread. Or you could go here: http://www.greencarcongress.com/h2/index.html
and search that forum.

Or you could read this GCC article from today:

California Hydrogen Business Council says a robust P2G RD&D program should be a priority for the state

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/10/20151013-p2g.html

The case for using Power-to-Gas solutions to store renewable energy is compelling for a number of important use cases, according to a new white paper released by the California Hydrogen Business Council (CHBC). The paper, —“Power-To-Gas: The Case For Hydrogen”—outlines the feasibility and economics of renewable energy storage solutions using P2G. Among the paper’s conclusions is that a robust P2G RD&D program should be a priority for the state of California. Currently, P2G is being deployed in Europe and Canada but is only at the early demonstration phase in California.

Consider the source certainly applies, but here's the direct link to the paper (17 pages, including the cites and sources):

https://californiahydrogen.org/sites/default/files/CHBC%20Hydrogen%20Energy%20Storage%20White%20Paper%20FINAL.pdf

 

[GRA]

Toyota doubles down on fool cells:

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/toyota-phase-out-gas-powered-vehicles-doubling-down-hydrogen-n444406

Via GCC, a more detailed account of Toyota's plans:

Toyota announces aggressive environmental targets through 2050; cutting new vehicle CO2 by 90% compared to 2010

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/10/20151014-tmc.html

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

DLR developing four-passenger fuel cell aircraft

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/10/20151015-dlr.html

The German Aerospace Center (Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt; DLR) is developing a four-passenger aircraft powered solely by a hydrogen fuel cell battery system. . . .

HY4 uses a hybrid system: the main power source is a low-temperature Proton Exchange Membrane (PEM) fuel cell, which continuously supplies the electric motor with durable and reliable power. A high-performance lithium battery covers peak power loads during take-off and when climbing.

The HY4’s electric motor has an output of 80 kW and allows for a maximum speed of approximately 200 km/h (124 mph) and a cruising speed of 145 kmh/h (90 mph). Depending on velocity, altitude and load, a range of between 750 and 1500 kilometers (466 to 932 miles) is possible. . . .

Looks like it will be based on the Pipistrel Taurus G4, basically a couple of motor gliders joined side by side by a new center section which contains the prop. They're talking about future regional air taxi use (presumably not by this a/c, but a FCHV one developed for the purpose), as an electric motor's high torque (no doubt combined with the high L/D ratio of those wings) allows STOL capability, and the fuel cell/battery is quiet.

 

[GRA]

Via GCC, cross-posted with the Mirai thread:

ITM Power takes delivery of first Toyota Mirai FCEV in UK; fuel contract with Toyota

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/10/20151019-itmpower.html

. . . ITM Power also signed its first fuel contract, with Toyota, covering the green hydrogen fuel dispensed from the three London HyFive refueling stations, funded by the Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking (FCH JU) and the two further refueling stations funded by OLEV and the FCH JU. . . .

. . . three of these hydrogen stations will be deployed on existing fuel retail forecourts in London. The refueling stations have a total capacity of 400 kg/day and will form the initial seeding of a UK green hydrogen infrastructure initially centered on London. . . .

H2 price £10/kg (US$15.50/kg., lowest price in the U.K.), on-site generation. As in the U.S., Toyota will be paying for the fuel for 3 years. Checking U.K. fuel prices at http://www.petrolprices.com/, the average for unleaded is currently 108.30p/L, or about 410p/U.S.G., so given an efficiency advantage versus a comparable-size and performance gas ICE of 2-2.5, £10/kg seems to be in the ballpark of comparable cost. But that's probably untaxed, so they still have to get it down some more as H2 will undoubtedly be taxed eventually, and they need to get it down well below 'petrol' to make the average person want to switch, absent prohibitions on driving anything but ZEVs in some urban areas.

 

[GRA]

Okay, it's intended for humor but does show why the majority of apartment/condo dwellers will consider FCEVs more practical than BEVs for many years to come, until such time as outside receptacles/public chargers are ubiquitous, via ievs:

Charging A BMW i3 From A 4th Floor Apartment – Video

http://insideevs.com/charging-a-bmw-i3-from-a-4th-floor-apartment-video/

I'm at ground level, but would have to use the same method to charge a BEV at home, and my landlord has zero incentive to install a closer receptacle that wouldn't require an extension cord run out a door or window, let alone a 240V circuit.

 

[finman100]

Yep, that is an unsolvable problem with no answers whatsoever. very humorous. <sarcasm off>

1st solution: go charge at a QC station for 15 minutes. You know, 10 minutes more than a fabled FCV fill.
2nd solution: Investigate workplace charging.
3rd solution: Actively invite property owners to install at minimum an outlet to charge from. Arrange payments accordingly.
4th solution: dont buy an EV expecting to charge from a 4th story building. Jesus, that is just sad that people are stupid.

5th solution: just get a Mirage (sorry Mirai) and return to old fuel-guzzling ways. But 'greener'. <again, sarcasm off>

YMMV

 

[GRA]

Yep, that is an unsolvable problem with no answers whatsoever. very humorous. <sarcasm off>

Sure, they're solvable, but only over a period of decades.

1st solution: go charge at a QC station for 15 minutes. You know, 10 minutes more than a fabled FCV fill.

Which assumes that there is a QC nearby (I have one within walking distance). Of course, that QC costs far more than just buying gas (as does H2 at the moment in the U.S., but the auto companies are picking up the tab), so that's not going to convince anyone not motivated by ideology to switch from fossil fuels. And 15 minutes at a QC gives you 35-50 miles of range (SCs do better), versus 250 or 300 miles for that 5 minute H2 fill, so the total fueling/charging times per week are far more favorable for H2 (or any liquid fuel).

2nd solution: Investigate workplace charging.

Not available for me or most people, even here in EV central, although it's certainly a good idea over the long term. But even if such installations are made mandatory, for all new construction at least, it will still take decades to provide a significant % of the fleet need. In the Bay Area, if you work in the tech industry for a major company, you're probably covered, but not many other job sites are likely to have charging (or any need).

3rd solution: Actively invite property owners to install at minimum an outlet to charge from. Arrange payments accordingly.

You can invite them all you want, but unless you make it worth their while (how?), very few will do so. Just as an example of the scale needed, see page 55 showing the percentage of European multi-family dwellings by country in the housing stock, and page 60, which shows the total numbers: http://www.bmwfw.gv.at/Wirtschaftspolitik/Wohnungspolitik/Documents/housing_statistics_in_the_european_union_2010.pdf

Again, requiring all new construction to be so fitted will take decades to have a significant effect (see page 54 above for the age of the housing stock). And that ignores security, liability and obsolescence issues. If you just provide a receptacle, it needs to be in a locked, weather proof box, so people can't steal the electricity (assuming you don't have a secure garage), and there needs to be some way to bill for it. Furthermore, you invite theft of your plug-in EVSE - even assuming that the price comes down to say $100 due to mass production, that's still worth stealing by any low life who needs some quick cash. Providing a permanently attached EVSE ups the cost to the building owner, and just means the copper thieves will be stealing the property owner's property instead of yours.

Built-in inductive charging is the most secure, weatherproof system, but it's still going to cost more and at the moment there isn't yet a single standard, so you face compatibility/obsolescence issues. H2 has a single world-wide standard, with little need to improve as it already achieves near liquid-fuel fill times. Of course, if H2 storage goes over to low-pressure (hydrides or nano-tube), there might be an issue, although there seems to be little reason why you'd need to change the connector; just lower the service pressure (saving energy no longer needed for compression).

4th solution: dont buy an EV expecting to charge from a 4th story building. Jesus, that is just sad that people are stupid.

That's pretty much what I'm saying, except that I'd change that to read don't buy a BEV/PHEV without guaranteed practical home charging, and buy an FCEV instead if there's a H2 station conveniently located (and the price is equal or less than gas). Which will likely be the easiest and most common situation for decades in Europe and Asia, because you can just add the H2 capability onto gas stations, and eventually convert them over entirely to H2. Always assuming the price comes down enough, but in Europe it appears they're already there, at least for gas-powered ICEs. H2 prices will only come down with scale, but so far at least, it doesn't appear that public charging can benefit in the same way.

5th solution: just get a Mirage (sorry Mirai) and return to old fuel-guzzling ways. But 'greener'. <again, sarcasm off> YMMV

Your fourth and fifth solutions are effectively the same, and make my point.

 

[smkettner]

Yep, that is an unsolvable problem with no answers whatsoever. very humorous. <sarcasm off>

1st solution: go charge at a QC station for 15 minutes. You know, 10 minutes more than a fabled FCV fill.
2nd solution: Investigate workplace charging.
3rd solution: Actively invite property owners to install at minimum an outlet to charge from. Arrange payments accordingly.
4th solution: dont buy an EV expecting to charge from a 4th story building. Jesus, that is just sad that people are stupid.

5th solution: just get a Mirage (sorry Mirai) and return to old fuel-guzzling ways. But 'greener'. <again, sarcasm off>

YMMV

Or get a new landlord.....

 

[finman100]

A very few have figured that theoretically FCV will work.

only a few hundred thousand have figured that EVs work and are working now.

Not decades. WTF.

 

[lorenfb]

Yep, that is an unsolvable problem with no answers whatsoever. very humorous. <sarcasm off>

Sure, they're solvable, but only over a period of decades.

1st solution: go charge at a QC station for 15 minutes. You know, 10 minutes more than a fabled FCV fill.

Which assumes that there is a QC nearby (I have one within walking distance). Of course, that QC costs far more than just buying gas (as does H2 at the moment in the U.S., but the auto companies are picking up the tab), so that's not going to convince anyone not motivated by ideology to switch from fossil fuels. And 15 minutes at a QC gives you 35-50 miles of range (SCs do better), versus 250 or 300 miles for that 5 minute H2 fill, so the total fueling/charging times per week are far more favorable for H2 (or any liquid fuel).

2nd solution: Investigate workplace charging.

Not available for me or most people, even here in EV central, although it's certainly a good idea over the long term. But even if such installations are made mandatory, for all new construction at least, it will still take decades to provide a significant % of the fleet need. In the Bay Area, if you work in the tech industry for a major company, you're probably covered, but not many other job sites are likely to have charging (or any need).

3rd solution: Actively invite property owners to install at minimum an outlet to charge from. Arrange payments accordingly.

You can invite them all you want, but unless you make it worth their while (how?), very few will do so. Just as an example of the scale needed, see page 55 showing the percentage of European multi-family dwellings by country in the housing stock, and page 60, which shows the total numbers: http://www.bmwfw.gv.at/Wirtschaftspolitik/Wohnungspolitik/Documents/housing_statistics_in_the_european_union_2010.pdf

Again, requiring all new construction to be so fitted will take decades to have a significant effect (see page 54 above for the age of the housing stock). And that ignores security, liability and obsolescence issues. If you just provide a receptacle, it needs to be in a locked, weather proof box, so people can't steal the electricity (assuming you don't have a secure garage), and there needs to be some way to bill for it. Furthermore, you invite theft of your plug-in EVSE - even assuming that the price comes down to say $100 due to mass production, that's still worth stealing by any low life who needs some quick cash. Providing a permanently attached EVSE ups the cost to the building owner, and just means the copper thieves will be stealing the property owner's property instead of yours.

Built-in inductive charging is the most secure, weatherproof system, but it's still going to cost more and at the moment there isn't yet a single standard, so you face compatibility/obsolescence issues. H2 has a single world-wide standard, with little need to improve as it already achieves near liquid-fuel fill times. Of course, if H2 storage goes over to low-pressure (hydrides or nano-tube), there might be an issue, although there seems to be little reason why you'd need to change the connector; just lower the service pressure (saving energy no longer needed for compression).

4th solution: dont buy an EV expecting to charge from a 4th story building. Jesus, that is just sad that people are stupid.

That's pretty much what I'm saying, except that I'd change that to read don't buy a BEV/PHEV without guaranteed practical home charging, and buy an FCEV instead if there's a H2 station conveniently located (and the price is equal or less than gas). Which will likely be the easiest and most common situation for decades in Europe and Asia, because you can just add the H2 capability onto gas stations, and eventually convert them over entirely to H2. Always assuming the price comes down enough, but in Europe it appears they're already there, at least for gas-powered ICEs. H2 prices will only come down with scale, but so far at least, it doesn't appear that public charging can benefit in the same way.

5th solution: just get a Mirage (sorry Mirai) and return to old fuel-guzzling ways. But 'greener'. <again, sarcasm off> YMMV

Your fourth and fifth solutions are effectively the same, and make my point.

Most still don't 'get' the basics of what you state. Luckily for automotive OEM shareholders, most aren't
strategic marketing managers for any automotive OEMs.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The concept that a quick charge electric vehicle would somehow be more expensive to operate than either a hydrogen car or any gasoline car is just not correct. It's easy to say, but just as easy to disapprove, as I have done several times already in this thread.

Currently, today, quick charging is available from both Tesla and other sites for free. But let's use just the fee for use method to compare with 1250 miles per month:

A) NRG / eVgo chargers at 40kW average with a Nissan LEAF with average consumption of 4 miles per kilowatt hour in the city.

B) Toyota hydrogen car that travels 50 miles per kilogram of hydrogen and costs $14 per kilogram

C) The tried and true Toyota Prius that travels 50 miles per gallon with gasoline at three dollars per gal.

*****

A) $14.95 monthly fee plus $1.50 per 15 minute charge session that will provide 10kWh, or 40 miles range. Cost for 1250 miles is ((1250 / 40) * $1.50) + $14.95, then 1250 miles divided by $61.83 per month using ONLY public fee-for-service for 15 minutes daily = $0.0495 per mile

B) $14 / 50 = $0.28... about 565% more expensive per mile !!!

C) $3 / 50 = $0.06... slightly more expensive, if you really get 50mpg around town (doubtful) and gasoline stays cheap!!! Hydrogen isn't even close.

Maybe we should compare natural gas, too?

 

[mbender]

Or get a new landlord.....

Or live in a state (eg, CA) that legally requires landlords to install (level 2) chargers for tenants who are willing to pay for the installation.

Yep, that is an unsolvable problem with no answers whatsoever. very humorous. <sarcasm off>

1st solution: go charge at a QC station for 15 minutes. You know, 10 minutes more than a fabled FCV fill.
2nd solution: Investigate workplace charging.
3rd solution: Actively invite property owners to install at minimum an outlet to charge from. Arrange payments accordingly.
4th solution: dont buy an EV expecting to charge from a 4th story building. Jesus, that is just sad that people are stupid.

5th solution: just get a Mirage (sorry Mirai) and return to old fuel-guzzling ways. But 'greener'. <again, sarcasm off>

YMMV