How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity?

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surfingslovak said:
Something doesn't add here, your data implies over 27 kWh of usable battery capacity: 18.75 kWh / 0.68 = 27.57 kWh. Could you please confirm that you took it from 80% (80% SOC) down to the first battery warning (17% SOC)? I apologize for asking the obvious, but is it safe to assume that you reset the energy economy gauge?
1
It was an 80% charge according to the car 10 of 12 bars, low battery came on at 55 miles, I continued to 60 with the GOM at 4 miles, so I went past the low batt warning a bit. Sorry it's not more accurate but the aero charger I have has no read out, so I guess there is some plus or minus a bit here.
 
djchrispaul said:
To clarify, the miles per kwh started out at 2.9 and I got it to 3.2. As I said the car has only 120 miles and when I picked it up from the dealer the kwh reading was 0.8 and has slowly been rising over the week.
OK, judging by your explanation the energy economy for the past 60 miles was 3.5 miles/kWh or better. This makes more sense than 2.9 mpk. Although the battery looks healthy, you might want to repeat this test to have a better baseline to compare against as your vehicle ages. Please be sure to reset the energy economy gauge as shown in the video below.

djchrispaul said:
It was an 80% charge according to the car 10 of 12 bars, low battery came on at 55 miles, I continued to 60 with the GOM at 4 miles, so I went past the low batt warning a bit. Sorry it's not more accurate but the aero charger I have has no read out, so I guess there is some plus or minus a bit here.

Please keep in mind that the GOM is nearly meaningless for capacity measurement, it's so fluid that it's not suitable as a point of reference. Try to rely on known and properly calibrated markers such as 80 or 100% charge and the low or very low battery warnings. Everything else is debatable, and not very useful. With the latest data, you seem to have 23 kWh of usable capacity: ( 55 / 3.5 ) / 0.68. This is still off a bit, but it's getting closer.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW-44xqVmsM[/youtube]
 
surfingslovak said:
djchrispaul said:
To clarify, the miles per kwh started out at 2.9 and I got it to 3.2. As I said the car has only 120 miles and when I picked it up from the dealer the kwh reading was 0.8 and has slowly been rising over the week.
OK, judging by your explanation the energy economy for the past 60 miles was 3.5 miles/kWh or better. This makes more sense than 2.9 mpk. Although the battery looks healthy, you might want to repeat this test to have a better baseline to compare against as your vehicle ages. Please be sure to reset the energy economy gauge as shows in this video:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW-44xqVmsM[/youtube]

Will do thanks! I'll report again hopefully with more accuracy!
 
The only true method to determine how far your car will go is to actually drive the car from 100% to Turtle. The important parameters to consider are listed in the notes in the bottom of the range chart (link in my signature line).

You should always use climate control off, as there are too many variables there, and I suggest as level highway as can be found in your area.

Temperature is easy to match, but an important note is BATTERY temperature. If you just used a DC quick charger 6 times in a row, and the ambient air is 55F, your battery might be 120F.

Conversely, if your car is left sitting outside in the freezing cold overnight, but it's now 70F in the afternoon, your battery is not at 70F. This is a typical southern California winter weather pattern.

So, the baseline run when your car is new (and record all the data for future use) and a subsequent future run when you suspect a battery abnormality later needs similar battery temperature, ambient temperature (it's important to match up air density at the same elevation), same level terrain if possible (level terrain and steady speed will eliminate the variables of regeneration, because there won't be any), no heater or a/c (for hopefully obvious reasons), the same vehicle weight and dry road conditions. The end result should give you a baseline to compare your performances to consider battery degradation. Some great tools for data collection are Gidmeter or LEAFscan tools !!!

Some more notes to gather your baseline range data; you want a road where you can maintain a steady speed. To compensate for any wind and to compensate for elevation variations (you absolutely will be returning to the same elevation when you pull back in your driveway at the end of the test), I recommend 40-ish miles out, and return of 40-ish miles in the opposite direction, all at 60mph. If you can't travel at 60mph, match whatever speed you use with your estimated range; for example, 50mph steady speed can go about 97 miles per the range chart, so drive outbound about 45-47 miles before turning around for the return.

You need to reset your odometer and miles/kWh economy meter on the dash at the beginning of your run, but don't reset this data until you've collected the data at the end of the test. You should use the Nav economy meter (which reads 0.1 high with the present firmware) to get steady speed data. Get your car at the stable target speed (again, let's choose 60mph) and then reset the Nav economy meter while at that target speed to (hopefully) get the target miles/kWh at that speed. For instance, while on the outbound 40-ish mile leg, at 60mph with cruise control, hit reset on the Nav economy screen reset, and at the end of a continuous 40-ish miles while still at 60mph, expect to see 4.0 miles/kWh on that meter before you start slowing down to reverse course. Then subtract 0.1 to match the console date, to get 3.9 miles/kWh.

Then do the same on the return run. Get to speed, then reset Nav economy gauge, and read the result at the end BEFORE you change the speed. Again, if there's any wind, or elevation changes, or both, you'll get two different numbers for each direction. Again, do not reset the dash economy meter until you've recorded that data for the entire trip, from 100% charge to Turtle mode. Naturally, the dash miles/kWh number won't match your two way averaged 60mph Nav data (even when corrected -0.1), since you weren't driving 60mph the entire trip, like in your driveway, and through the neighborhood to the highway that your test was conducted on.

Its not so important to note fuel bars (but you can) as they are a variable In energy capacity per unit (but not as crazy as the GoM). For instance, the fuel bars will show 12 units at "100%" charge, even if the battery is -20C with 50% degradation. Important "hard data" landmarks are the mileage readings at Low Battery Warning, Very Low Battery, and subsequently Turtle. You don't need to drive the car to dead, just Turtle mode.

Check the tire pressure before a run! 36psi is recommended, many of us run right up to the 44psi limit specified by the tire manufacturer. Reset both economy meters and odometers. Do not attempt this on windy days. Do NOT use the GoM (that's just dumb) or CarWings (current firmware is off 2.5% for mileage). DO NOT USE AVERAGE SPEED.

BALANCE THE BATTERY CELLS FIRST!!! That means, charge to 100% and let the car sit for 4 hours after the car reaches 100% while still plugged in. Or, if you observe a top off charge between one and four hours after reaching 100%, you can then consider the cells balanced (as much as is possible). You don't have to do anything else. The LEAF's automation will take care of all the dirty work.

Checklist before the data collecting run:

1. Any changes to car from stock (different tires, bike rack, Texas cattle horns, etc)
2. Tire pressures set, heater and air conditioning off, car at 100% charge, cells allowed time to balance
3. Gross vehicle weight? 3350 pounds plus operator, passengers, spare tire, bags, concrete, etc
4. Route, length, elevation, hills if any, general conditions (dry, concrete/asphalt, etc)
5. Assumed or measured battery temp (from LEAFscan tool)
6. Ambient air temp
7. Gid count at start, if available
8. SOC, if available (from LEAFscan)
9. Starting total voltage (should be 393.5v from GidMeter or LEAFscan tools)

Data to record:

1. Outbound steady speed (confirm with cruise control on)
2. Outbound observed steady speed miles/kWh from Nav adjusted -0.1
3. Inbound steady speed (confirm with cruise control on)
4. Inbound observed steady speed miles/kWh from Nav adjusted -0.1
5. Miles at Low Battery Warning
6. Miles at Very Low Battery
7. Overall miles covered to Turtle
8. Overall miles/kWh from dash economy display
9. Calculated battery useable energy (miles / miles/kWh = battery kWh)
10.Ending pack voltage, SOC, and Gid (350v-ish from GidMeter or LEAFscan tools)

Post all this data on here for our crack team of LEAFers to decode, but plug the car in to recharge first!

Tony
 
TonyWilliams said:
The only true method to determine how far your car will go is to actually drive the car from 100% to Turtle. The important parameters to consider are listed in the notes in the bottom of the range chart (link in my signature line).

You should always use climate control off, as there are too many variables there, and I suggest as level highway as can be found in your area.

Temperature is easy to match, but an important note is BATTERY temperature. If you just used a DC quick charger 6 times in a row, and the ambient air is 55F, your battery might be 120F.

Conversely, if your car is left sitting outside in the freezing cold overnight, but it's now 70F in the afternoon, your battery is not at 70F. This is a typical southern California winter weather pattern.

So, the baseline run when your car is new (and record all the data for future use) and a subsequent future run when you suspect a battery abnormality later needs similar battery temperature, ambient temperature (it's important to match up air density at the same elevation), same level terrain if possible (level terrain and steady speed will eliminate the variables of regeneration, because there won't be any), no heater or a/c (for hopefully obvious reasons), the same vehicle weight and dry road conditions. The end result should give you a baseline to compare your performances to consider battery degradation. Some great tools for data collection are Gidmeter or LEAFscan tools !!!

Some more notes to gather your baseline range data; you want a road where you can maintain a steady speed. To compensate for any wind and to compensate for elevation variations (you absolutely will be returning to the same elevation when you pull back in your driveway at the end of the test), I recommend 40-ish miles out, and return of 40-ish miles in the opposite direction, all at 60mph. If you can't travel at 60mph, match whatever speed you use with your estimated range; for example, 50mph steady speed can go about 97 miles per the range chart, so drive outbound about 45-47 miles before turning around for the return.

You need to reset your odometer and miles/kWh economy meter on the dash at the beginning of your run, but don't reset this data until you've collected the data at the end of the test. You should use the Nav economy meter (which reads 0.1 high with the present firmware) to get steady speed data. Get your car at the stable target speed (again, let's choose 60mph) and then reset the Nav economy meter while at that target speed to (hopefully) get the target miles/kWh at that speed. For instance, while on the outbound 40-ish mile leg, at 60mph with cruise control, hit reset on the Nav economy screen reset, and at the end of a continuous 40-ish miles while still at 60mph, expect to see 4.0 miles/kWh on that meter before you start slowing down to reverse course. Then subtract 0.1 to match the console date, to get 3.9 miles/kWh.

Then do the same on the return run. Get to speed, then reset Nav economy gauge, and read the result at the end BEFORE you change the speed. Again, if there's any wind, or elevation changes, or both, you'll get two different numbers for each direction. Again, do not reset the dash economy meter until you've recorded that data for the entire trip, from 100% charge to Turtle mode. Naturally, the dash miles/kWh number won't match your two way averaged 60mph Nav data (even when corrected -0.1), since you weren't driving 60mph the entire trip, like in your driveway, and through the neighborhood to the highway that your test was conducted on.

Its not so important to note fuel bars (but you can) as they are a variable In energy capacity per unit (but not as crazy as the GoM). For instance, the fuel bars will show 12 units at "100%" charge, even if the battery is -20C with 50% degradation. Important "hard data" landmarks are the mileage readings at Low Battery Warning, Very Low Battery, and subsequently Turtle. You don't need to drive the car to dead, just Turtle mode.

Check the tire pressure before a run! 36psi is recommended, many of us run right up to the 44psi limit specified by the tire manufacturer. Reset both economy meters and odometers. Do not attempt this on windy days. Do NOT use the GoM (that's just dumb) or CarWings (current firmware is off 2.5% for mileage). DO NOT USE AVERAGE SPEED.

BALANCE THE BATTERY CELLS FIRST!!! That means, charge to 100% and let the car sit for 4 hours after the car reaches 100% while still plugged in. Or, if you observe a top off charge between one and four hours after reaching 100%, you can then consider the cells balanced (as much as is possible). You don't have to do anything else. The LEAF's automation will take care of all the dirty work.

Checklist before the data collecting run:

1. Any changes to car from stock (different tires, bike rack, Texas cattle horns, etc)
2. Tire pressures set, heater and air conditioning off, car at 100% charge, cells allowed time to balance
3. Gross vehicle weight? 3350 pounds plus operator, passengers, spare tire, bags, concrete, etc
4. Route, length, elevation, hills if any, general conditions (dry, concrete/asphalt, etc)
5. Assumed or measured battery temp (from LEAFscan tool)
6. Ambient air temp
7. Gid count at start, if available
8. SOC, if available (from LEAFscan)
9. Starting total voltage (should be 393.5v from GidMeter or LEAFscan tools)

Data to record:

1. Outbound steady speed (confirm with cruise control on)
2. Outbound observed steady speed miles/kWh from Nav adjusted -0.1
3. Inbound steady speed (confirm with cruise control on)
4. Inbound observed steady speed miles/kWh from Nav adjusted -0.1
5. Miles at Low Battery Warning
6. Miles at Very Low Battery
7. Overall miles covered to Turtle
8. Overall miles/kWh from dash economy display
9. Calculated battery useable energy (miles / miles/kWh = battery kWh)
10.Ending pack voltage, SOC, and Gid (350v-ish from GidMeter or LEAFscan tools)

Post all this data on here for our crack team of LEAFers to decode, but plug the car in to recharge first!

Tony

Great post Tony---very informative and helpful. I just want to add that I personally appreciate your contribution to this forum; and I think I speak for many other members. :D :D :D
 
I must have a Leaf with a weak battery, still have 12 bars and haven't noticed any reduced range. I drove to VLB+ about 3 miles of very gentle driving and charging to 100% only used 18 kWh, (level 2 charger measured on utility grade kWh meter) that would be 15.3 kWh into the battery. How many kWhs does a battery have remaining a VLB? Anyone care to test my car with a GidMeter, in Temecula or San Diego?
 
pchilds said:
I must have a Leaf with a weak battery, still have 12 bars and haven't noticed any reduced range. I drove to VLB+ about 3 miles of very gentle driving and charging to 100% only used 18 kWh, (level 2 charger measured on utility grade kWh meter) that would be 15.3 kWh into the battery. How many kWhs does a battery have remaining a VLB?
At VLB you have about 3.3 kWh left in the battery to turtle, or about 4 kWh from the wall. That would put you at about 22 kWh from the wall which is around 10% down on capacity from the highest readings we've seen for turtle->100% charges from the wall (24-25 kWh).

Of course, GerryAZ reports that his LEAF when new only took 22.85 kWh from the wall so that might imply that your car is seeing very little degradation. Hard to say unless you take the car down to turtle and charge to 100%.
 
pchilds said:
What do I gain by taking it down to turtle?
Information on the range for your style of driving.

Doesn't that degrade the battery?
From the available evidence, yes. In my opinion, the only piece of information that you need is the Gid count after your battery is charged to 100% and properly balanced. This will tell you where your battery capacity stands.
 
pchilds said:
What do I gain by taking it down to turtle? Doesn't that degrade the battery?

From what I have read, most batteries do not like deep discharges and that is why I have no plans to do this type of testing on my Leaf.

Last week I did buy a GID meter and when it arrives next week, I look forward to gathering some data on pack capacity.
 
KJD said:
pchilds said:
What do I gain by taking it down to turtle? Doesn't that degrade the battery?

From what I have read, most batteries do not like deep discharges and that is why I have no plans to do this type of testing on my Leaf.

Last week I did buy a GID meter and when it arrives next week, I look forward to gathering some data on pack capacity.
Where can I buy a GID meter and how does it connect to the car?
Thanks.
 
djchrispaul said:
Where can I buy a GID meter and how does it connect to the car?
Thanks.
http://www.wwwsite.com/puzzles/socmeter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note that you can pay $100 more and Gary will build the meter for you (I think that option is still available; I know I took advantage of it). You just plug the meter in to the port under the dash.
 
Stoaty said:
djchrispaul said:
Where can I buy a GID meter and how does it connect to the car?
Thanks.
http://www.wwwsite.com/puzzles/socmeter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note that you can pay $100 more and Gary will build the meter for you (I think that option is still available; I know I took advantage of it). You just plug the meter in to the port under the dash.

The OBD2 port?
 
Update, Thursday night I charged to 100% and left it plugged in 4 hours, to balance the batteries. Drove to VLB, Friday. The battery took 21.1 kWh, much better than 18 kWh. :D

11 months and 8500 miles, lifetime miles/kWh 4.9.
 
pchilds said:
Update, Thursday night I charged to 100% and left it plugged in 4 hours, to balance the batteries. Drove to VLB, Friday. The battery took 21.1 kWh, much better than 18 kWh. :D

11 months and 8500 miles, lifetime miles/kWh 4.9.
Indeed! My guess is that your battery is very close to mine, and it would take between 22.6 to 22.9 kWh from the wall to charge up from turtle to full. Here is how my last full charge looked like. Note that I interrupted it around 80% SOC:

fullchargejune


And this is how it looked like in January this year. This implies about 6% loss, which is roughly consistent with my last Gid reading (270).

januaryfullcharge
1
 
I love all of the tools that Tony and the other data-heads are using. I wish I had the money, time and motivation to work with a fully assembled GID meter and get this kind of data for myself. But this begs the question: Doesn't Nissan HAVE all of this collected data from the past 18 months on our entire population of Leafs (we all punch "OK" every day multiple times to help them with this)?
Instead of giving us meaningless collective data like Eco-trees and efficiency rankings, can't they give us the straight scoop on battery degradation by just giving us a peek at the avg. kwH needed to charge aggregate cars at Time X (say, Oct. 2011) vs. Time Y (now)... computers can extrapolate these figures even when all cars start charging at a different level? That would answer all of this needless speculation that can't ever be verified because we're all doing one-off experiments with limited data sharing capability.

Transparency, Nissan, please consider it. It will, in the end, help marketing in the long-term, even if the press will have actual degradation figures to gloat over.

Josh
 
Nissan can add a TMS to the battery pack.. it cools by conducting heat to the steel case, so just attach a cold plate to the exterior of the case, add some insulation and it will cool the battery down. The cold plate connects to the AC system and would require a freon valve. Perhaps they would need a bigger compressor.
 
pchilds said:
Update, Thursday night I charged to 100% and left it plugged in 4 hours, to balance the batteries. Drove to VLB, Friday. The battery took 21.1 kWh, much better than 18 kWh. :D

11 months and 8500 miles, lifetime miles/kWh 4.9.

Okay, I admit most of the discussion here leaves me lost so just tell me the answer to this. I read that charging to 80% is good, which is what I do. But 100% +4 hours balances the cells, whatever the hell that means. So should I do the 100% + 4 hours, and if so, how often? Thanks, you brainiacs.
 
DesertDenizen said:
Okay, I admit most of the discussion here leaves me lost so just tell me the answer to this. I read that charging to 80% is good, which is what I do. But 100% +4 hours balances the cells, whatever the hell that means. So should I do the 100% + 4 hours, and if so, how often?
100% charge + 4 more hours plugged in to charging dock will balance the battery pack (if it needs balancing). The one time I did this, I didn't see any change in my Gids on a full charge, so I guess my battery wasn't out of balance. There isn't any way to judge in advance if your battery is out of balance (that I know of). You might want to do this every 1-3 months IF and only if you need the extra 1-3% that balancing MIGHT give you. Not doing it won't hurt the pack, but you may get a bit of extra storage after balancing. The important thing is to do this ONLY right before you plan to drive a fair distance, so the battery doesn't sit at high SOC, which is known to be bad for it. My recommendation for those who don't need the full charge now is to wait until Fall when temperatures are cooler to do this balancing. That's what I plan to do, and I don't live in a particularly hot area.
 
Thanks Stoaty, that makes it simple for me. I do not need a few extra percentage points of range so I will skip the balancing. I have only taken it to 100% twice in my year of ownership and need not do that again. I actually only charge to 80% just before my use of the vehicle, so it hasn't even spent any significant time at 80%. Trying to cling on to that tenuous twelfth bar.
 
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