Goodbye Nissan Leaf, hello Kia Soul EV

[camasleaf]

Anyone's guess, I suppose. Mine: about 5,000 bucks. A loss total of 20,000 dollars. This is why I've leased Spark EV and now Soul EV. No more buying EVs until many years from now when the tech stabilizes.

For those who bought, like myself, this math doesn't quite work out the same. Even if the price falls as low as you predict it would still be less expensive to keep the Leaf for 3 more years than leasing another car, provided you can still make it work. This is my plan, I will put about 120k miles on mine after 6 years, then even if I have to "unload" it at 5k I will have saved enough in gas so overall it won't be to bad. The depreciation rate has slowed down a lot for older Leafs, and my guess I will be able to do better than 5k then.

We bought the 2011. I figure I already saved enough on gas to pay for a new battery. Plan to keep the car for as long as it still makes the RT commute of 25 miles. Like you said the key is how long can you make the limited range work.

 

[DaveEV]

Nissan is the only EV maker that doesn't use a TMS!

VW is not using active cooling for the e-Golf as far as I'm aware.

 

[apvbguy]

There is a car for everyone out there. Not everyone needs a big screen shining at you while you drive.

screen envy??? :lol: :lol:

don't hold your breath waiting on the model 3, the model X has been pushed back until Q3 of 2015

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

hope you leased and did not buy

It seems Kia has made a very strong commitment on a battery capacity warranty that makes long term ownership of this car very practical. Of course, the lease deal is also outstanding. It sounds like you can't go wrong with this car, buy or lease. I just wish I knew it would be available here in Michigan by the time my lease is up next year.

I admit I have not followed any car real close because I am committed to a lease until the end of 2016 but where has Kia presented any information that would "seem"ingly make them more committed to the consumer?

I have seen a lot of words but until its backed up with user experiences, I have to think we don't know how long these packs will last. Keep in mind we are talking about a company just fined for lying.

I maybe a die hard Nissan fan (actually just a die hard LEAF fan) but I still have a level of distrust for big businesses and auto manufacturers in general that applies to EVERYONE.

Its not much of a secret that we hold warranties to be a very strong selling point and Kia knows this so putting out a better warranty may make some people think that Kia has a better product but sorry, they have been doing that for years and have yet to prove they can build a better car than anyone else

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Anyone's guess, I suppose. Mine: about 5,000 bucks. A loss total of 20,000 dollars. This is why I've leased Spark EV and now Soul EV. No more buying EVs until many years from now when the tech stabilizes.

For those who bought, like myself, this math doesn't quite work out the same. Even if the price falls as low as you predict it would still be less expensive to keep the Leaf for 3 more years than leasing another car, provided you can still make it work. This is my plan, I will put about 120k miles on mine after 6 years, then even if I have to "unload" it at 5k I will have saved enough in gas so overall it won't be to bad. The depreciation rate has slowed down a lot for older Leafs, and my guess I will be able to do better than 5k then.

We bought the 2011. I figure I already saved enough on gas to pay for a new battery. Plan to keep the car for as long as it still makes the RT commute of 25 miles. Like you said the key is how long can you make the limited range work.

Another thing to consider is how well public charging can be incorporated to bolster that shrinking range. I will admit that is the ideology rationalized in my head that helped my decision to get an EV (admittedly, I did not need a lot of help )

After 4 years, the results have been inconsistent but generally MUCH below expectations. But that does not have to be true the next 4 years. Our numbers are growing and noise should be getting louder as well.

 

[WetEV]

It has a TMS, it is better than all LEAFs!!!

Not everywhere, not for everyone. A battery in an insulated box with a cooling system will likely be hotter than a passively cooled battery when the outside temperature is reasonable, like 10C to 15C. So for the cool coastal Pacific Northwet... I mean Northwest, a TMS is not only more expense to buy, not only uses more energy, but would have a shorter battery lifetime.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Nissan is the only EV maker that doesn't use a TMS!

VW is not using active cooling for the e-Golf as far as I'm aware.

no TMS is what EVERYONE should be aspiring too. But Kia is close. AFAIK, they only have battery box ventilation which brings safety and the consequences of extreme use/environment to what I consider to be a very acceptable compromise

 

[Valdemar]

Do we know when Kia's air cooling system is active? Only while driving? Considering EVs are typically not driven for prolonged periods of time it is unclear how effective it is at lowering battery temps overall.

 

[nosuchthing]

There seems to be no TMS action when car is parked and not plugged in. But there have been no extreme temps yet for me to vouch for that. I did hear it, or something, when charging on a hot day.

Ultimately, TMS is a minutia I can live without knowing details of. My expectation is that Li polymer will deliver decent range in 3 years as it does now.

While on the subject...we are at 20,000 1.5 year mark with our Spark EV and the 100% charge shows 85-mile range just like it did on day one.

And one more thing. It seems that Soul GOM underreports miles remaining by a few miles. Otherwise it's very stable and does not crazy jump around like the Leaf's. Spark's GOM is the best.

 

[Nfuzzy]

Nissan is the only EV maker that doesn't use a TMS!

VW is not using active cooling for the e-Golf as far as I'm aware.

no TMS is what EVERYONE should be aspiring too. But Kia is close. AFAIK, they only have battery box ventilation which brings safety and the consequences of extreme use/environment to what I consider to be a very acceptable compromise

Amen to that! Why would anyone WANT a TMS if the industry can eventually get a battery chemistry that can hold up on its own? Added cost and complexity which are two things I love to avoid with my EV! Jury is still out on the 2015 but hopefully it shows an improvement. And for the record I considered the Kia but not only is it not available in my area the added cost doesn't quite justify the extra couple of miles on the GOM. My 2015 Leaf regularly gets me over 100 miles range + GOM in the summer.

 

[pchilds]

Nissan is the only EV maker that doesn't use a TMS!

VW is not using active cooling for the e-Golf as far as I'm aware.

VW is saying the exact thing that Nissan said,(We have special batteries that don't need active cooling.) we shall see in a few years. I bet VW tested in Arizona too. :roll: I guess you won't be fast charging the e-Golf often, and don't drive it too fast. Because, "VW utilizes a lithium-ion cells designed for gentle charge and de-charge".

“In terms of the battery pack, the engineering goal was to develop a highly efficient system as opposed to one that focused on charge-time or capacity (like some of our competitors). In partnership with Panasonic, VW utilizes a lithium-ion cells designed for gentle charge and de-charge during use which helps to reduce heat and energy consumption often associated with cells designed for rapid charging and de-charging. Our engineers refer to them as “marathon cells.” Additionally, without a cooling system weight savings are achieved which aides in overall efficiency of the vehicle. Due to the efficiencies achieved, minimal waste heat is created during operation (i.e. during fast charging) and is quickly directed by the battery metal structure into the chassis, away from the battery, helping to prevent extreme temperature conditions inside the pack.”

 

[Valdemar]

While on the subject...we are at 20,000 1.5 year mark with our Spark EV and the 100% charge shows 85-mile range just like it did on day one.

Does it mean Spark has a more stable battery than the Leaf or just a bigger inaccessible buffer to compensate for capacity loss?

 

[asimba2]

Amen to that! Why would anyone WANT a TMS if the industry can eventually get a battery chemistry that can hold up on its own? Added cost and complexity which are two things I love to avoid with my EV! Jury is still out on the 2015 but hopefully it shows an improvement. And for the record I considered the Kia but not only is it not available in my area the added cost doesn't quite justify the extra couple of miles on the GOM. My 2015 Leaf regularly gets me over 100 miles range + GOM in the summer.

The grass is always greener on the other side. I certainly do not aspire to the massive vampire draws the Tesla has in both hot an cold weather:
"I was on vacation for a few days and the Leaf was outside and unplugged (mean outdoor temp approx 25°F). Over the 8.5 day period, the idle power loss was 0.4 kWh (took 9 minutes to top-off at about 11A average charging current), which equates to only 50 watt hours per day. It's the purple square on the graph. That car can really sleep, even in the cold!

In contrast, the Tesla lost 18.85 kWh over only 4.9 days, which equated to 5,630 watt hours per day. It took slightly over 4 hours to top off at 20A. If the Tesla had been unplugged for the same amount of time as the Leaf, it would have taken slightly over 7 hours to top off, using 32.63 kWh. At my cost (Windsource @ 16¢ / kWh) for an 8.5 day vacation the Leaf would cost 6.4¢ while idle, and the Tesla $5.22."

I can't find the forum thread where I saw data for hot temps, but my recollection is the Tesla TMS could draw nearly half of the Leaf's TOTAL battery capacity in one day of high heat. I'd prefer heat tolerant chemistry over a complicated and wasteful TMS any day.

Can the Soul's A/C be triggered remotely when parked? Might not be a bad idea to turn it on for a bit at 3-4 pm on really hot days to let the battery breathe a bit.

 

[nosuchthing]

Does it mean Spark has a more stable battery than the Leaf or just a bigger inaccessible buffer to compensate for capacity loss?

Don't know the answer to that. But one thing appears to be true, it's better than 2011-13 Leaf's battery.

 

[Valdemar]

Does it mean Spark has a more stable battery than the Leaf or just a bigger inaccessible buffer to compensate for capacity loss?

Don't know the answer to that. But one thing appears to be true, it's better than 2011-13 Leaf's battery.

I find the statements above contradicting each other.

 

[GRA]

Does it mean Spark has a more stable battery than the Leaf or just a bigger inaccessible buffer to compensate for capacity loss?

Don't know the answer to that. But one thing appears to be true, it's better than 2011-13 Leaf's battery.

The likely reasons that the (2014) Spark hasn't suffered the same degradation as a LEAF in similar conditions are that its LiFePO4 chemistry is more heat tolerant, and it has full, active liquid-cooled (and heated) TMS. Better coming and going. It lacks the Volt's large buffer.

While a battery that doesn't need a TMS is obviously the ideal to aim for, the companies shouldn't be moving towards the ideal on the backs of their customers. No one wants a TMS one minute longer than it's necessary, but at the moment, for most of the U.S. they are necessary to slow degradation and provide a reasonable lifetime at a semi-affordable price.

 

[nosuchthing]

Nothing contradictory about that (the above), Valdemar...

 

[Valdemar]

Nothing contradictory about that (the above), Valdemar...

If the capacity losses are masked by the inaccessible buffer is it really better? Now, if there is no buffer as GRA says then sure. You were making a statement without knowing the basic facts about the underlying technology. I can't help but notice there is a lot of speculation here that batteries from other manufacturers are "better" than Nissan's with no real data to back these claims up. I'm not a big fan of Nissan, but at least they were honest enough to include the capacity gauge.

 

[lorenfb]

Obviously TMS is of value for extreme high temp conditions, but there appears to be an over emphasis
on that aspect of battery degradation. As an example my 2013 Leaf had an initial capacity of about
60.5 Ahrs. Now at 13k miles it has 56.5 Ahrs and over its 1st summer never saw more than 85-90 degrees.
So to assume that for the average BEV owner in non-extreme temp environment the use of TMS will
greatly reduce battery degradation is to ignore other factors in the actual casual relationship and their
correlation coefficients as related to battery degradation.

 

[Pipcecil]

TMS does more than just protect the battery. It gives a more reliable range. The leaf has HORRIBLE range swings in the winter. Compare that to a Volt or other vehicle with TMS. Yes, the TMS uses more power during the winter time, but the range loss from that power is significantly smaller than the range loss from a cold battery. I think this gives BEVs such bad rap. You really want as much consistent range as possible either by season or over the life of the vehicle and TMS is the only way to do it currently. You need a battery to withstand degradation over time, degradation from hit, and superior cold weather performance. That's a tall order for any battery since these problems are inherent in most Li-ion batteries.