Gen 1 GM Volt Plug-In Hybrid (2011-2015)

[qwk]

Generalizing isn't smart at all. I drive about 30 miles 3 times a week, and over 120 miles the rest of the time. The Volt would make absolutely no sense in my case. Here is the kicker, I have burned exactly 0 gallons of gas driving even more than that since March. I could have done it in a Leaf, but it would have been a great inconvenience. That's why a car with over 200 miles of range has such great VALUE. Sure it's more expensive in the beggining, but over time, you get much closer to the cost of an ice; no other vehicle needed.

Actually the fallacy lies in failing to use the average. Anyone can come up with a scenario where any car works better than another. It's easy to "prove" that a PIP will use less gas than a Volt or a Leaf if you get to pick the numbers. The question at the moment, and the only relevant question really, is whether the average driver could get more zero emission miles from a Volt or a Leaf. That answer is very straightforward. They'd get more zero emission miles from a Volt.

If you think that spending $100K on an additional car is an answer to anything -- much less the nutty claim that this has "VALUE" in any economic sense -- then there isn't much to say other than religious people will believe what they want to believe.

You just made my point. Averages from some random survey(which doesn't necessarily reflect reality)don't mean jack. All that matters is how you use your car. For me the Volt is the worst of both worlds. Expensive for what it is, no power(my standards), and you still have oil changes, spark plugs, muffler, air filter and so on. I still have to visit a gas station, and the car is made by a company that is known for building junk. What a deal!

The Leaf has most of the same problems, but at least it doesn't use gas, ever.

Now the Model S is expensive, but you get what you pay for. Only a fool can expect mind blowing performance, looks, touchscreen, no gas usage, for cheap. The car is worth every penny and more. Nobody is going to save any money buying a Model S, or a volt/leaf for that matter. If you really want cheap transportation, you buy a used gas car that gets good mileage. The problem is, those are not very fun to drive because mileage and performance don't go together in and ICE, but they can in an EV(as Tesla has shown).

 

[evnow]

Serioiusly? You don't think 20% is a bigger number than 12%?

That is not what you said - and I was commenting on.

You said ...

To simplify, all the data available indicates drivers go less than 40 or more than a 100 miles a day.

And that is obviously BS. It implies nobody drives between 40 and 100 miles.

In anycase, people buy depending on their commuting and other needs. Nobody's driving profile matches that of the "average" person. For eg. in the last 3 years we've driven over 100 miles rarely - and on those occasions used Leaf with intermediate recharging - using ICE only once. But I regularly drive over 40 miles. For our "over 100 miles" travels we mostly take to the air.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

To simplify, all the data available indicates drivers go less than 40 or more than a 100 miles a day.

Clearly incorrect exaggeration meant to stir up a response.
No stat like that can be absolute. You're saying that no one drives between 40 and 100 miles.

I'm exactly one of those and why I leased a Leaf and did not find the Volt useful. We typically drive 30-60 miles a day. For most of our drives a Volt would always end up using at least some gas. The Volt will use gas anyway to prevent gas from becoming stale. We've been using the Leaf almost exclusively for months. Its perfectly suited to our driving. The only time we've used our ICE is when we needed a second car or when we took a long trip (300 miles). The Volt's poor electric range isn't sufficient for our use to be all electric. Its poor gas mileage makes it an inferior substitute to our current VW diesel that gets 45-55mpg.

If you think of electrification as a spectrum, with pure gas (ICE) on one extreme and BEV on the other extreme, the Volt is exactly in the middle. It can perform at full capacity either on electric only or when the ICE running. While thats convenient, from a practical cost standpoint, its the worst possible combination. You pay the penalty for having both a full ICE drivetrain and a full BEV drivetrain. Lots of redundant added cost, lots of space taken up, suboptimal performance either way.

The BMW i3 is intriguing. Its on the BEV end of the spectrum with an ICE added to provide some level of emergency power. Smallest practical engine, small gas tank, minimal power, electric only connection to minimize transmission, cost, space for exhaust etc. Will be interesting to see how the numbers work out for efficiency, performance and cost. If it does well as a BEV, it could be interesting to consider it as a BEV w emergency backup. Compared to the Volt, its likely to have more interior space and much better electric range.

 

[scottf200]

Here is how ~1650 Volts on http://www.voltstats.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; drive electric.

Some charge at home and work. Thus you can easily get 70-90 miles of electric driving if necessary.

Aside: Seeing quite a few in AZ. Look at leaderboard. Click on 'State' column until arrow next to it is up. Then hold down Shift key and click on 'EV Miles' until arrow next to it is up. Lot of new ones.

 

[scottf200]

Here is the bigger picture of the Volt people (USA Volts and only those signed up on OnStar).
So busy trying to compare but the Volt is running a LOT of miles on grid/solar electricity just like any BEV!!
Show me the grid miles from other BEVs.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Here is how ~1650 Volts on http://www.voltstats.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; drive electric.

Is this meant to show people don't drive more than 30 miles a day?

Looking at stats on a Volt is not a useful stat to indicate driving characteristics of the general public. Its a self selected sample set.

You're asking the set of users who thought the Volt's range was adequate about the range they drive. I'd be surprised if their usage didn't match expectations. Why would someone buy a car with a 38 mile range if they intend to drive 60 miles a day (not even counting longer trips) and therefore end up using the Volt in CS (ICE) mode with worse mileage than a much cheaper yet roomier Prius?

 

[scottf200]

Here is how ~1650 Volts on http://www.voltstats.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; drive electric.

Is this meant to show people don't drive more than 30 miles a day? Looking at stats on a Volt is not a useful stat to indicate driving characteristics of the general public. Its a self selected sample set.
You're asking the set of users who thought the Volt's range was adequate about the range they drive. I'd be surprised if their usage didn't match expectations. Why would someone buy a car with a 38 mile range if they intend to drive 60 miles a day (not even counting longer trips) and therefore end up using the Volt in CS (ICE) mode with worse mileage than a much cheaper yet roomier Prius?

It actually shows that the majority drive 40 or less. It also shows they the 40 doesn't stop a lot of them from driving farther. 242,000,000+ electric grid/solar miles is impressive!

I've truly lost count of the number of Prius owners that bought Volts and could not believe how much nicer/better the Volt was in about every way. These past Prius owner's threads are very convincing. They are THRILLed with the Volt experience over the Prius. They usually start out with ... I used to think ...

This is from last Saturday 10Aug2013 and I was driving ~70 mph (little 45, then 65&75 mix) following a friend up to a MI lake.
I'm quite happy with the 165.8 miles I drove on that 2.81 gallons and $0.60 midnight low rate charge!

 

[joeaux]

This thread is a joke.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Here is how ~1650 Volts on http://www.voltstats.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; drive electric.

Is this meant to show people don't drive more than 30 miles a day? Looking at stats on a Volt is not a useful stat to indicate driving characteristics of the general public. Its a self selected sample set.
You're asking the set of users who thought the Volt's range was adequate about the range they drive. I'd be surprised if their usage didn't match expectations. Why would someone buy a car with a 38 mile range if they intend to drive 60 miles a day (not even counting longer trips) and therefore end up using the Volt in CS (ICE) mode with worse mileage than a much cheaper yet roomier Prius?

It actually shows that the majority drive 40 or less. It also shows they the 40 doesn't stop a lot of them from driving farther. 242,000,000+ electric grid/solar miles is impressive!

I've truly lost count of the number of Prius owners that bought Volts and could not believe how much nicer/better the Volt was in about every way.

Not sure what the point is. Ok, Volt owners have driven x miles on electric. I'm sure there are lots of miles logged on the all electric Leaf BEV, maybe more if you count world wide miles. Don't have to worry about dividing electric vs. gas miles. I guess GM needs to publicize electric miles because people will assume they're all gas miles. Such an assumption with a BEV isn't possible.
Branding them as "solar miles" sounds like a marketing term. Is this intended as a GM sales pitch? You could just as easily have called them electric grid/coal miles. You can't tell where the miles came from so why cherry pick solar?

As previously discussed, there's nothing but glowing reports on gm-volt including those from Prius owners. Given the strong bias enforced on that website, it doesn't surprise me that you can lose count of glowing positive remarks. I bet I can count how many Volt detractors are on that website.

Other than a marketing debate, I don't see the point in debating.
The Volt, and other plug in hybrids, can help as a transition to an electric, no-emission future. Thats good overall. Manufacturers can produce a variety of vehicles to see what resonates with consumers. I'm not sure why GM ends up so defensive about the Volt. Its worth trying lots of product permutations and see what works.

I agree with Elon that more EVs, even plug in hybrids, will help the EV cause. More power to ya. Hope the Volt does well, especially when the v2 comes out. Will be interesting to see how the Leaf v2, Volt v2, and Tesla Gen III will compare. Exciting times.

 

[Stewy13]

Care to explain?
You can do 40-80km/charge in a Volt and you can do 100-160km/charge in a LEAF.
Your math doesn't add up as they say.

If you're smart enough to do the math then it does add up. The Volt is the simplest case. To simplify, all the data available indicates drivers go less than 40 or more than a 100 miles a day.

All the data available, from where/who exactly?

Your fallacy is just looking at the range numbers without considering the drive cycle. (You can't use opportunity charging to change the result because the Volt can opportunity as well as the Leaf. In fact we know empirically that Volt owners opportunity charger more often than Leaf owners, meaning if anything the X-40 days overstate how competitive the Leaf is in the zero emission mile race.)

You can however use quick charging to change that result which is something the Volt can't do.
Your point below falls apart when this is factored in.

Over 70 miles you get 0 zero emission miles for the Leaf since you're not taking it and 40 for the Volt.

Let's go back to what I quoted you on:

Both the Volt and the i3 tailpipe hybrids will give you more zero emission (electric) miles than a Leaf.

I'll try to make my point simple enough for you "smart enough" people to do the math :roll: and perhaps give you insight into my criticism of your statement.
Both a Volt and a LEAF have the same amount of km/miles on the odometer, which one will have more electric km/miles on the odometer: The 100% Electric Car or the Plug-In Hybrid Car?

 

[jhm614]

Both a Volt and a LEAF have the same amount of km/miles on the odometer, which one will have more electric km/miles on the odometer: The 100% Electric Car or the Plug-In Hybrid Car?

I agree with you in principal and, with the same odo reading, the Volt will never have more EV miles than the Leaf. However, it is possible that the Volt could have the same number of EV miles. It really depends on the drivers individual driving pattern. My wife drives about 15 miles a day. She would be an all EV miler in a Volt. I drive 60 miles a day, so I would have 20 gas miles a day.

 

[mkjayakumar]

Both a Volt and a LEAF have the same amount of km/miles on the odometer, which one will have more electric km/miles on the odometer: The 100% Electric Car or the Plug-In Hybrid Car?

How about a different way of looking at it ? Joe who owns a Volt, and John who owns a Leaf have driven 15K miles in the last one year. Which one has put in more electric miles ?

That is probably a realistic question. For instance the last 4 weeks I have been driving the Honda Van which gives me a poor 16 miles to a gallon only because I am afraid to take the Leaf and drastically reduce the Gid count in the peak summer. Since I don't lose a lot of Gids during the rest of the year, I figured this is the best way to get the best out of my Leaf, as I drive 70 miles a day round-trip commute and I am now forced to charge L1 for at-least two hours in my office. This is what I did last summer and that is what I guess got me close 18K miles before I lost my first bar in the Texas heat.

 

[DaveEV]

For instance the last 4 weeks I have been driving the Honda Van which gives me a poor 16 miles to a gallon only because I am afraid to take the Leaf and drastically reduce the Gid count in the peak summer. Since I don't lose a lot of Gids during the rest of the year, I figured this is the best way to get the best out of my Leaf, as I drive 70 miles a day round-trip commute and I am now forced to charge L1 for at-least two hours in my office.

IMO, letting the car sit in a warm garage is worse than driving it in the heat because now it's just sitting in the garage losing capacity doing nothing instead of you driving it. If you have to L2 to make it back home, so be it. You might just charge to 80% at both ends, trying to time it so it gets to 80% just before you head back in the other direction. Or even better, since it's only 35 miles, you might aim for 8 bars when you leave which should get you home around 2 bars remaining.

Or trade the LEAF in for a Volt and charge at both ends as well.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

For instance the last 4 weeks I have been driving the Honda Van which gives me a poor 16 miles to a gallon only because I am afraid to take the Leaf and drastically reduce the Gid count in the peak summer. Since I don't lose a lot of Gids during the rest of the year, I figured this is the best way to get the best out of my Leaf, as I drive 70 miles a day round-trip commute and I am now forced to charge L1 for at-least two hours in my office.

IMO, letting the car sit in a warm garage is worse than driving it in the heat because now it's just sitting in the garage losing capacity doing nothing instead of you driving it. If you have to L2 to make it back home, so be it. You might just charge to 80% at both ends, trying to time it so it gets to 80% just before you head back in the other direction. Or even better, since it's only 35 miles, you might aim for 8 bars when you leave which should get you home around 2 bars remaining.

Or trade the LEAF in for a Volt and charge at both ends as well.

Agreed. Use it or lose it. Don't live in fear. I hope you leased. If so, don't worry about it. If you didn't, sell it if you're that worried about it.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Some conversation at my monthly stop at the pump to pick up 2-3 gallons... if only I had a dime for every time someone said to me "I wish they made something like that in a pickup"

Bob Lutz is right, a big detractor to people embracing these vehicles is their ICE counterparts are pretty efficient so the upper bound on the savings isn't high enough to be compelling to a lot of people.

 

[scottf200]

To be clear, I don't think any Volt owner does not think we are losing physical battery capacity at some rate. I've replaced batteries in numerous rechargeable devices I've owned and read many articles. Certainly GM is dynamically trying to make the Volt owners initial driving years (5'ish?) consistent. I compare this to some threads on this forum where people are literally watching their battery degrade weekly using several methods (android app seems to be the most accessible). Even some are watching the battery before/after doing DCFCs!

GM/OnStar upgraded our Volt app a while ago. It has some pretty cool displays that show various stats on how our fellow Volt owners are driving. They show by national, region, state as well as time frames.

Here are electric only miles per week on a national and my state (IL) level.
(Only USA Volts and then a subset of those that signed up for OnStar are included)

|

Some conversation at my monthly stop at the pump to pick up 2-3 gallons... if only I had a dime for every time someone said to me "I wish they made something like that in a pickup"<snip>

ViaMotors is doing it for fleet trucks a fleet managers think long term (spreadsheet jockeys). Here is their calculator for an 8 year cycle: http://www.viamotors.com/vtrux/calculator/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

ViaMotors is doing it for fleet trucks a fleet managers think long term (spreadsheet jockeys). Here is their calculator for an 8 year cycle: http://www.viamotors.com/vtrux/calculator/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ViaMotors is not news... are they "doing it" or talking about doing it?

When folks say they wish there was something like that in a pickup truck, I think they mean something they could go to a local dealer and actually obtain, get parts and service, etc... not visit a web site to learn about a company doing conversions for fleets at sky high prices with some undetermined delivery date.

 

[RegGuheert]

To be clear, I don't think any Volt owner does not think we are losing physical battery capacity at some rate. I've replaced batteries in numerous rechargeable devices I've owned and read many articles. Certainly GM is dynamically trying to make the Volt owners initial driving years (5'ish?) consistent.

Really, Scott??!!

Because about five months ago you stated that you thought that idea is "sort of a myth that likes to get repeated here on MNL":

I've started following the GM-Volt forum for the last 3 months and I get the impression that nobody over there knows whether GM made plan to eat into the extra capacity over the long run or not to preserve the advertised range of about 40 miles.

Yes, it is sort of a myth that likes to gets repeated here on MNL. There was a comment made in an interview to that affect as I recall but nothing remotely official. After 21K EV miles in my 2011 it has not appeared to lose any range. 30 winter, 45 summer (2011/12-EPA 35, 2013-EPA 38).

Now you state the GM is "certainly" doing this. What changed your mind?

 

[joeaux]

Now you state the GM is "certainly" doing this. What changed your mind?

I'd like to know the answer to that too. I researched the Volt for years before I bought one. Got reams of data, information, video etc. from GM and many other sources. As far as I can tell GM never had or has any plans to open up more of the 10.5 KW or so we get from our battery. The intent on only allowing the middle of the battery in the first place was to extend the life of the battery for 10 to 15 years because completely charging or completely discharging a Lithium battery can be detrimental to it's longevity (as anyone with a Lithium battery based car knows). I've heard the hearsay, "sorta" comments but nothing official.

 

[RegGuheert]

As far as I can tell GM never had or has any plans to open up more of the 10.5 KW or so we get from our battery.

Just to be clear here, I don't think anyone has suggested that GM might make more than 10.5 kWh available to the users in the 2011 Volt. The idea is that GM must increase the SOC range of the battery as the battery degrades to be able to provide that 10.5 kWh. So whereas a new 2011 Volt may use the SOC range of 20-85%, a Volt with a degraded battery may use an SOC range of, say, 15-90% and eventually will have to open up the SOC range to some limits only GM knows. At that point, the range of the vehicle will necessarily drop as further degradation occurs.