Gen 1 GM Volt Plug-In Hybrid (2011-2015)

[Train]

In fact, I expect that almost every ICEV will be a PHEV in the relatively near future.

Not sure what you mean by "almost every ICEV" and "near future." Is "almost every ICEV" 95%? 90%? 80%?

Is "near future" five years from now? Ten?

Perhaps this is wishful thinking. Some are going to be disappointed when the realities and limitations of BEV's (as some are experiencing now) become more apparent. Natural gas is a practical alternative to petrol powered cars. I believe there will be multiple kinds of cars, natural gas, diesel, gasoline, electric, hybrid electric/petrol/natural gas.

In my opinion, 10 years from now, BEV's will still be niche cars and will make up less than 1% of sales.

 

[CarZin]

CarZin wrote:
You battery purists crack me up. As you think it's ridiculous to haul around an engine, I think it's even more stupid to haul around a ton of extra battery capacity that costs a fortune.The Volt is most certainly a bridge technology. But it is a bridge technology that provides a future for pure electrics. Obviously it is the better design philosophy. The sales comparisons make that fairly obvious.


The additional cost and the additional weight of the LEAF's 24 kW battery over the 16 kWh battery in a Volt is $2,800 (according to Mr. Lutz) and about 200Lbs.

I'ts that obsolescent ICE in the Volt that makes it both so much more expensive, and about 400 lbs heavier, than the LEAF.

I think your definition of the future is also flawed.

I drive a BEV, and last time I checked, It still was the present...

Unfortunately, for your argument, you aren't comparing apples to apples. Since the gas engine can take you over 300 miles, you would need to compare the weight and cost of a battery system that would take you 300 miles. Short story, your cost weight argument doesn't work.

GM didn't put an engine in he car to travel the extra 40 miles the Leaf would carry you. They put a gas engine in to travel a few hundred more miles without stopping, and without needing the car to cost another 20k, and carry around a huge battery with ridiculous expensive capacity you don't need 90% of the time.

 

[JeffN]

Were those the same GM employees that claimed the Volt would get 250 MPG?

Overall plugin hybrid mpg figures that high are entirely possible with the right battery size and driving pattern. You seem to be implying they are fictional and that GM conjured up those numbers on their own.

First, under my new and longer commute I've been getting 240+ total mpg averaged over the last 6+ weeks and 3,400 miles so those types of numbers are entirely plausible for some people. Second, the 230 mpg number that GM touted several years ago was based on a proposed EPA formula that ultimately got dropped.

Actually, the EU's published overall plugin hybrid mileage estimate for the Volt/Ampera is 196 mpg (US gallons) because it takes into account the Volt's fully charged battery range.

 

[cwerdna]

Unfortunately, those $89K and $75K figures still being tossed around in more recent news "stories" like http://beta.fool.com/rekhamarwah/2012/09/14/voltage-fluctuates/11696/?ticker=TM&source=eogyholnk0000001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[SanDust]

Your Volt transmission description sure sounds a lot simpler than the one below, posted buy a Volt owner:

The Volt transmission is simple if you understand how a planetary gearset works. The lengthy description you've cited seems complicated because it's trying to explain the system to someone who doesn't understand how a planetary gearset works. Basically the main traction motor is either turning the sun gear with the ring gear locked or the main traction motor is holding the sun gear stationary and the small motor generator is turning the ring gear. It's not any more complex than that.

The other poster is right that your weight argument makes no sense when you're looking at energy densities of 150wh/kg. The Volt can go 350 miles or something. For a BEV to do that far it would need a battery that weighed 1500 pounds.

 

[Herm]

Unfortunately, those $89K and $75K figures still being tossed around in more recent news "stories"

People like to hang on to old comfortable beliefs, even edatoakrun is still misunderstanding the 230mpg claim after all this time.

 

[edatoakrun]

Unfortunately, those $89K and $75K figures still being tossed around in more recent news "stories"

People like to hang on to old comfortable beliefs, even edatoakrun is still misunderstanding the 230mpg claim after all this time.

I never found the those disingenuous claims of 200+ "mpg" by Volt advocates particularly difficult to understand, Herm.

I do find it difficult to understand why even some Volt owners still can't seem to understand the lie inherent in their statements, when they continue to parrot the claim:

JeffN

Overall plugin hybrid mpg figures that high are entirely possible with the right battery size and driving pattern. You seem to be implying they are fictional and that GM conjured up those numbers on their own.

First, under my new and longer commute I've been getting 240+ total mpg averaged over the last 6+ weeks...

 

[CarZin]

It's not a lie if it's properly qualified. The combined figure is a display of the usefulness of the 40 mile range at reducing gas consumption. It is a way of showing that you don't need to drive a pure BEV to reduce your gasoline consumption to near zero. I have a combined rating of 1000 MPG and I bet I travel more electric miles in a year than 99% of Leaf owners because I don't have to care about ending up on the side of the road when the battery runs down.

The combined MPG is important, because without it, all you have it MPGe and MPG in PHEV. It would make a prius plug in look better than the Volt, and it clearly isn't for the vast majority of drivers (at reducing gas consumption).

 

[edatoakrun]

It's not a lie if it's properly qualified...quote]

OK, lets give your "properly qualified" approach a few tries.

It is not true that a 2012 Volt gets 240 mpg.


It is not true that a 2012 Volt gets 1,000 mpg.


It is not true that a 2012 Volt gets any more than 35 mpg city and 40 mpg highway, as rated by:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/31618.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hey, it works!

Now, as to the same agency's rating of the 2012 Volt while running on electricity:

Volt kw-hrs/100 miles

36 City

37 Highway


And the 2012 LEAF's kw-hrs/100 miles rating:

32 City

37 Highway

 

[JeffN]

It's not a lie if it's properly qualified...quote]

OK, lets give your "properly qualified" approach a few tries.

It is not true that a 2012 Volt gets 240 mpg.

I don't recall anyone saying that it got 240 mpg on official methodologies, and I don't recall GM saying it got 230 mpg in the last 3 years since that proposed EPA formula was left out of the final regulation.

It is not true that a 2012 Volt gets 1,000 mpg.

I don't recall anyone saying that it did, based on official test methodologies. And, again, the EU (NEDC) actually rates the 2011-2012 Volt as 196 mpg. Getting 1000 mpg in actual use would be difficult, but is certainly possible. I see that 82 owners at voltstats.net are getting over 1000 total mpg.

It is not true that a 2012 Volt gets any more than 35 mpg city and 40 mpg highway, as rated by:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/31618.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hey, it works!

Hey, we agree on something!

Of course, in real use it's not difficult to get 42+ mpg in combined city/highway use.

Now, as to the same agency's rating of the 2012 Volt while running on electricity:

Volt kw-hrs/100 miles

36 City

37 Highway


And the 2012 LEAF's kw-hrs/100 miles rating:

32 City

37 Highway

The 2013 Volt is now being sold so we should use those numbers instead. EPA
is reporting only the combined city/highway all-electric number for 2013 at the fueleconomy.gov website:

Volt kw-hrs/100 miles

35 Combined (I'm personally getting 25 the last few months in a 2011 Volt)

Volt all-electric MPGe

98 Combined

2012 LEAF kw-hrs/100 miles

34 Combined

2012 LEAF MPGe

99 Combined

 

[SanDust]

I never found the those disingenuous claims of 200+ "mpg" by Volt advocates particularly difficult to understand, Herm.

I do find it difficult to understand why even some Volt owners still can't seem to understand the lie inherent in their statements, when they continue to parrot the claim:

If you look at voltstats you'll find that 44% of Volt owners get more than 200 MPG. Hardly surprising that "some Volt owners" think they get that. :lol: In any case, they're certainly not, as you claim, lying. Here's a rhetorical question: Is torturing the data and cherry picking facts in order to make a disingenuous argument tantamount to lying?

The reality is that a driver with a normal driving pattern will end up with more EV miles if they drive a Volt than if they drive a Leaf + an ICE vehicle. There just aren't many days when they'd go beyond the Volt's EV range but not beyond the Leaf's range, and on the days when they couldn't drive the Leaf because the driving exceeds the Leaf's EV range they'd still get their 40 miles of EV range with the Volt.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I never found the those disingenuous claims of 200+ "mpg" by Volt advocates particularly difficult to understand, Herm.

I do find it difficult to understand why even some Volt owners still can't seem to understand the lie inherent in their statements, when they continue to parrot the claim:

If you look at voltstats you'll find that 44% of Volt owners get more than 200 MPG. Hardly surprising that "some Volt owners" think they get that. :lol: In any case, they're certainly not, as you claim, lying. Here's a rhetorical question: Is torturing the data and cherry picking facts in order to make a disingenuous argument tantamount to lying?

The reality is that a driver with a normal driving pattern will end up with more EV miles if they drive a Volt than if they drive a Leaf + an ICE vehicle. There just aren't many days when they'd go beyond the Volt's EV range but not beyond the Leaf's range, and on the days when they couldn't drive the Leaf because the driving exceeds the Leaf's EV range they'd still get their 40 miles of EV range with the Volt.

this is true since my household (LEAF/Prius) would do less than 2000 miles on gas during our annual 27,000 average combined annual miles

 

[CarZin]

OK, lets give your "properly qualified" approach a few tries.

I typically tell people that I go about 1000 miles before I end up burning a gallon of fuel. I tell them I have burned about 16 gallons in 16k miles. I tell them I have used $250 in electricity.

This isn't rocket science. I stand by my previous comments on the merits of combined fuel economy. I am sorry if it gets a few leaf owners panties in a wad.

 

[Cheezmo]

I really wish the Volt and Leaf owners would get along. They both have their benefits and shortcomings.

They are both a step in the right direction.

Wallets are speaking and the Volt is the more appealing step right now.

When I had one of each and was looking at a 3rd EV, it was pretty much a no brainer. The extended range of the Volt and its handling were it's big plusses, the heat related battery issues on the Leaf was it's big negative (living in Texas).

With our 2 Volts, one is pretty much all electric, still on the first tank of gas from the dealer. The 2nd is at about 72MPG as it has been used for 2 400+ mile trips.

 

[Stoaty]

I really wish the Volt and Leaf owners would get along. They both have their benefits and shortcomings.

They are both a step in the right direction.

I think the Volt is a great car. I'm really impressed with what GM has accomplished. Right now I am still glad I bought a Leaf instead, but that could change depending on what happens with the battery capacity loss situation. The Leaf fits my needs better and allows me to burn less fossil fuel than if I had purchased a Volt.

 

[CarZin]

I've got no problems with leafs or most of their owners. I know about 10 leaf owners. If the Volt were not made, I would seriously consider a leaf despite its short comings. I do have a problem with people not seeing the forest through the trees with regards to the future of transportation. Personally, I don't think electric cars will survive without the Volt. It's going to be necessary to gain widespread approval. Most people are not going to spend 30k on a commuter car that requires another car to go long distances, and most people aren't going to be able to afford an electric car with a ton of range.

 

[ztanos]

It's not a lie if it's properly qualified...quote]

OK, lets give your "properly qualified" approach a few tries.

It is not true that a 2012 Volt gets 240 mpg.


It is not true that a 2012 Volt gets 1,000 mpg.


It is not true that a 2012 Volt gets any more than 35 mpg city and 40 mpg highway, as rated by:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/31618.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hey, it works!

Now, as to the same agency's rating of the 2012 Volt while running on electricity:

Volt kw-hrs/100 miles

36 City

37 Highway


And the 2012 LEAF's kw-hrs/100 miles rating:

32 City

37 Highway

Because no car in the history of cars, has ever beaten the EPA ratings. :roll:

 

[redLEAF]

At least some media sources (AutoWeek) recognize the falsehood of some of the latest 'charges' against the Volt ... in my own area Volt versus LEAF's sightings have to be close to 30 to 1:

http://www.autoweek.com/article/201...-and-the-Chevy-Volt&utm_campaign=awdailydrive

 

[mwalsh]

At least some media sources (AutoWeek) recognize the falsehood of some of the latest 'charges' against the Volt ... in my own area Volt versus LEAF's sightings have to be close to 30 to 1

I'm still seeing entirely the opposite - Far more LEAFs in my 'hood than Volts. Though I am seeing more Volts, so they must be starting to catch up.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I really wish the Volt and Leaf owners would get along. They both have their benefits and shortcomings.

They are both a step in the right direction.

I think the Volt is a great car. I'm really impressed with what GM has accomplished. Right now I am still glad I bought a Leaf instead, but that could change depending on what happens with the battery capacity loss situation. The Leaf fits my needs better and allows me to burn less fossil fuel than if I had purchased a Volt.

i will 2nd Sloatly as well for the 3rd time say the Volt is a great option for a lot of people since this thread has kinda degenerated into "my car is great, your car is worthless" vein.

i think the Volt is a great car but i am more favored for the LEAF simply because one of the 2 commutes in my house cannot do it on EV alone if i had a Volt so even if cost was not a factor (and it is) it is still the range.

if i was going to change anything, it would be replacing the Prius with the Volt but did a cost analysis of transportation costs on that and it barely works because the Volt would be exclusively used for the 64 mile RT in Winter meaning 30 miles on gas everyday if we take 35 as the EV range in winter and in my household its an easy excuse to not take the LEAF when the LEAF works due to various levels of comfort in the house.

all this is despite several dozen successful trips in all kinds of weather conditions. so you see, i fight the EV misconception battle 24/7