Gen 1 GM Volt Plug-In Hybrid (2011-2015)

[AndyH]

Are Republicans using Volt as a proxy to attack Obama ?

http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=23754

President Obama has averted the Bush-Cheney depression, and given the US auto industry a fighting chance. Needless to say, that isn’t the narrative either conservatives or the status quo media want to push right now.

But it’s hard to attack the auto industry directly, especially since it is doing much better than anyone could have expected given overall economic conditions. And so we have that bastion of the status quo media, the Politico, giving Rush Limbaugh a whole story on his “Obama Motors” spiel and nonsense like this, “Limbaugh said the Volt, as well as other hybrid automobiles — such as the Toyota Prius, which sells for roughly $30,000 — are nothing more than an expensive way to promote the environmentalist agenda.”

I think right-wing talking heads may be using it. The GM bailout is a terrible thing from a conservative ideological standpoint.

However, I doubt you will hear much from the Republican establishment. Ed Whitacre is a key figure in the Texas Republican party, is very close to the Bush family, was a Bush Ranger (top tier fundraiser), McCain fundraiser, and has been a friend of Karl Rove since before W was elected. No doubt this was an Obama compromise to prevent the majority of Republican outrage about the politically unpopular bailout.

From Ingrassia's Crash Course page 224:

The gathering crisis made unlikely bedfellows of the Bush White House and the Democrats in the House of Representatives, who...on the weekend of December 6-7...hammered out a compromise on Detroit: $14 billion in emergency loans to keep GM and Chrysler in business until March 31, during which time a new government "car czar" would help them craft a long-term restructuring plan.

Bush/Cheney negotiated a bailout but the final vote died in the Senate when the "heartless 'party of no'" stood firm and the bill died in the Senate.

As the negotiations had neared a climax, White House staffers had quietly passed the word that if Congress wouldn't provide money to GM and Chrysler, President Bush would do it himself. Within days the president diverted $17.4 billion from the $700 billion bank-rescue package to keep the companies afloat for three months.

Bush's executive order required the two companies to submit new "viability plans" on February 17, outlining the measures they would take to return to profitability. George W. Bush, quite simply, wasn't going to preside over the bankruptcy of General Motors or Chrysler - icons of both American industry and American culture - during the waning days of his presidency.

Bush dumped the problem on the Obama administration. The new president's team hit the ground running and did the work that GM and Chrysler failed to have to guts to tackle.

 

[evnow]

Bush dumped the problem on the Obama administration. The new president's team hit the ground running and did the work that GM and Chrysler failed to have to guts to tackle.

Unsurprisingly conservative media has ignored Bush's role in the bailout.

Politico disappears Bush from GM bailout history

http://mediamatters.org/research/200906080047

 

[planet4ever]

If I can interrupt all this political talk for a moment, did you see this statement about the Volt from Larry Nitz, GM’s executive director of EVs and hybrids?

Let me put it simply: If you don’t have a way to plug in this vehicle, don’t buy it.

(Found at http://gm-volt.com/2010/08/08/epa-rating-on-volt-is-near/)

I interpret that to mean that running in "range extender" mode the Volt is no match for a Prius. It may turn out not to be even as fuel-efficient as some non-hybrid cars.

In my mind, this means that the proper way to look at the Volt is just the opposite of what some others here have been saying. It is not a useful pluggable hybrid. It is an EV with a 40 mile range, and an emergency extra power supply on-board.

Personally, if that's what you want, I think it makes more sense to get an EV with a 40 mile range and an emergency battery supply for an extra 60 miles, and I happen to know of a vehicle which provides just that. It's a lot cheaper, too.

 

[evnow]

I interpret that to mean that running in "range extender" mode the Volt is no match for a Prius. It may turn out not to be even as fuel-efficient as some non-hybrid cars.

It is supposed to be as good as a non-hybrid compact - which is 35 mpg ?

Considering the effort they have taken to keep it under wraps, it could be worse.

 

[Spies]

I interpret that to mean that running in "range extender" mode the Volt is no match for a Prius. It may turn out not to be even as fuel-efficient as some non-hybrid cars.

I also wonder what the emissions output of the Volt is going to be when running in "range extender" mode compared to other hybrid and non-hybrid vehicles.

 

[derkraut]

If I can interrupt all this political talk for a moment, did you see this statement about the Volt from Larry Nitz, GM’s executive director of EVs and hybrids?

Let me put it simply: If you don’t have a way to plug in this vehicle, don’t buy it.

(Found at http://gm-volt.com/2010/08/08/epa-rating-on-volt-is-near/)

I interpret that to mean that running in "range extender" mode the Volt is no match for a Prius. It may turn out not to be even as fuel-efficient as some non-hybrid cars.

In my mind, this means that the proper way to look at the Volt is just the opposite of what some others here have been saying. It is not a useful pluggable hybrid. It is an EV with a 40 mile range, and an emergency extra power supply on-board.

Personally, if that's what you want, I think it makes more sense to get an EV with a 40 mile range and an emergency battery supply for an extra 60 miles, and I happen to know of a vehicle which provides just that. It's a lot cheaper, too.

Hmmm? Now what could that vehicle be?? Hmmm? I've got it!! The Leaf!

 

[evnow]

The same would be true of a Chevy Volt. Only in the case of the Volt it is easier to visualize because it is a serial hybrid all the time. So you wouldn't add the power of the gas engine and electric motor on that vehicle either.

Actually in the case of Volt, you could add the powers. They can both be operated at their maximum power at the same time.

 

[AndyH]

The same would be true of a Chevy Volt. Only in the case of the Volt it is easier to visualize because it is a serial hybrid all the time. So you wouldn't add the power of the gas engine and electric motor on that vehicle either.

Actually in the case of Volt, you could add the powers. They can both be operated at their maximum power at the same time.

Can they? Not if the genset only comes to life after the battery's toast, and not if the energy from the genset goes directly to the motor and not to charge the pack.
:?

 

[evnow]

Can they? Not if the genset only comes to life after the battery's toast, and not if the energy from the genset goes directly to the motor and not to charge the pack.
:?

It is not crystal clear but in the "mountain" mode, it seems generator can come on even if battery is not depleted if there is greater power need. And yes, the genset can charge the battery.

 

[garygid]

On the Volt, ONLY the e-motor can "push" the car, and the ICE is just a generator of electricity (no pushing).

On the Prius, at least 2 can "push". Also, if one motor spins, then (due to the planetary gear that all 3 are conected to) at least one other motor must spin.

For Example:
Standing Still: The "traction" e-motor is not spinning, since it is connected "directly" to the wheels. If the ICE is stopped (or running), the "generator" e-motor must also be stopped (or running), possibly actually generating, maybe just spinning "freely", or briefly acting as a "starter motor" (to start the ICE).

Moving, Slower Speeds: The "drive" e-motor (connected to the wheels) can be "pushing" the car (or not) but must be spinning, the ICE can be at zero RPM (up to about 43 mph), and the "generator" e-motor just spinning "freely", or doing "Regen" (or might the traction e-motor also do Regen?).

Apparently, after the "43 mph limit", at least one of the e-motors gets spinning too fast, and the ICE must at least rotate, even if not providing any significant power.

It seems that if one needs any significant power, the ICE "lights up" to help push.

The system seems strangely complex, but also wonderfully integrated. Power, "idle", Regen, battery-charging, and braking are all smoothly integrated. Years of experience have really produced a fine vehicle. Good Job Toyota.

I hope their plug-in version works as well, and has a significant E-mode range and speed.

Is it known if the (comming-soon?) pkug-in "Prius" will be basically more battery for the Prius, or an entirely different drive train, maybe serial?

 

[evnow]

On the Volt, ONLY the e-motor can "push" the car, and the ICE is just a generator of electricity (no pushing).

Not correct. There was an interview sometime back in gm-volt. The chief Volt engineer said either motor can be used for traction. He went into some detail - but said the full details won't be disclosed ...

ps : Incidentally that was the most technical blog there - and few people understood it.

 

[LEAFfan]

On the Volt, ONLY the e-motor can "push" the car, and the ICE is just a generator of electricity (no pushing).

Not correct. There was an interview sometime back in gm-volt. The chief Volt engineer said either motor can be used for traction. He went into some detail - but said the full details won't be disclosed ...

ps : Incidentally that was the most technical blog there - and few people understood it.

Garygid is absolutely correct on this one. That interview was waaay back, and the latest is that the gen ONLY charges the batteries when they reach a certain percent. I've read this lately MANY times.

 

[garygid]

Might be true, but then it is NOT a true "serial" hybrid, nor is it an EV with a "generator" for extending range.

Maybe the Volt has become something of a parallel hybrid, ...
or possibly the information is old?

 

[planet4ever]

The same would be true of a Chevy Volt. Only in the case of the Volt it is easier to visualize because it is a serial hybrid all the time. So you wouldn't add the power of the gas engine and electric motor on that vehicle either.

Actually in the case of Volt, you could add the powers. They can both be operated at their maximum power at the same time.

I kept waiting for the obvious "therefore" from Gary's post that followed this, but since no one else has stated it, I will:

Therefore, in the Volt, 2 + 2 = 2. You can never get more horsepower out of the system than the electric motor alone can provide.

 

[evnow]

Garygid is absolutely correct on this one. That interview was waaay back, and the latest is that the gen ONLY charges the batteries when they reach a certain percent. I've read this lately MANY times.

Link pls. The news lately was mostly about Volt not having any mechanical link between ICE & the wheels - which is true.

 

[LEAFfan]

Garygid is absolutely correct on this one. That interview was waaay back, and the latest is that the gen ONLY charges the batteries when they reach a certain percent. I've read this lately MANY times.

Link pls. The news lately was mostly about Volt not having any mechanical link between ICE & the wheels - which is true.

I'll do one better. Here is the OFFICIAL answer from the Volt's/GM's Website: Q: How is the Chevy Volt different than other cars on the road?
A: The car is a plug-in range-extended electric vehicle with an on-board gasoline generator. It will have a large battery that stores power from your home electric outlet and which is connected to an electric motor. The electric motor directly propels the car. The battery can last for the first 40 miles. After that, should one continue to need to drive, the on-board gasoline/E85 generator will power up to provide electricity for the motor (my underlining). Here's the link: http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-faqs/

 

[LEAFfan]

If that one isn't clear enough (they left out the part about battery charging) here is a better one:
Q: How is the Chevy Volt different than today’s hybrids, like the Prius?
A: Today’s hybrids are called parallel hybrids. They use a small electric motor for low speed driving, but switch to a regular gas engine for acceleration and faster speed driving with the electric motor providing enhancement, hence both engines work side by side or in parallel. The Volt is a series vehicle meaning only the electric motor power the car at all times, the gas engine is just a generator, making electric to keep the batteries in a steady state of charge after 40 miles.

 

[evnow]

leaffan,

You are providing 101 answers to a 401 level course

 

[AndyH]

Watch the Jay Leno's Garage interview with a GM chief engineer.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/at-the-garage/hybrids/green-garage-2011-chevy-volt/

1:10 in...

A gasoline engine will...come on...it will then begin to generate just enough energy to keep the car going...we don't actually recharge the battery, we wait until you get home...

Jay beats on the engineer about the engine thu the video. The engineer stands his ground - the gasoline engine never comes on to supplement power or to climb a hill - it's only there to keep the car moving after the battery's dead.

The car does have regen - so if one uses the ICE to climb a hill and regen down, they can do some battery charging. Otherwise...

 

[evnow]

Watch the Jay Leno's Garage interview with a GM chief engineer.

Again, as I said simplistic answers.

http://gm-volt.com/2009/11/09/engineering-design-of-the-chevy-volts-two-electric-motors/

I had the following discussion with Alex Cattelan who is the Volt’s Chief Powertrain Engineer. It explains for the first time anywhere in more depth how the Volt’s two separate electric motors function.

The design of the electric motor, is there a separate generator or does the motor itself just turn the other way and act as a generator?

Very interesting question. There are two motors. One is considered the traction motor and the other one is the generator. However, and they are two motors, the traction motor is higher-powered and designed specifically to meet the traction requirements. The generator is designed to efficiently couple to the engine to generate what we need and match the efficiency band of the engine as much as possible in all the operating modes. So we look at that motor as coupled with the engine in system and then we also have a traction motor.

Some of the interesting pieces though of this are, for example, in EV operation I have two motors on board and I typically use the traction motor only to drive the vehicle. However, I do have some mechanisms to couple those motors and in some points of operation these two motors can be coupled and have a more efficient state.

Does that produce more power if they’re coupled?

It’s actually not additive for power, it’s actually the way it’s architected, and a lot of this is proprietary so I can’t get into the full architecture, but what it does is optimize the rotating speed and the losses of the motors so in certain states its better to operate both to propel the vehicle and in some states its better to utilize more of the generator and less of the traction motor. In some states its more efficient to use more of the generator and have more of the traction motor actually be a generator. That would be for example in coast down situation often we use our traction motor as a generator on regen.

We do have the ability to utilize both motors in propulsion mode.

The issue is and the direct answer to your question is we do have a primary traction motor and a primary generator motor and they are designed specifically for those levels of operation. However, we have a little bit of flexibility in exactly how we use them.

Notice what she says about the flexibilty that exists. There is a graphic that shows all the way the genset, battery & two motors can be linked. When I find it I'll post it.