I've had a Champion 3500/4000 watt for years, and it's quiet, reliable, and economical. Relatively clean, too. But it isn't sine wave output! Mine is a clone of a Honda, as probably is this one. I may look into this one.
gas generator trailer for EV's
- Thread starter DrRocket
- Start date
Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
DanCar said:Dear Phil, AKA Engineer, can I hook this up?EVDrive said:
http://www.costco.com/Champion-7000W-Running--9000W-Peak-DUEL-FUEL-Generator-wElectric-Start.product.100112008.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I believe the car will take up to 30kW while driving. "All" you need is the generator, a battery charger, plug to connect to the battery terminals. I am not sure how to deal with regen when you hit the brakes. Is the car seeing the generator input and automatically limits the regen to 30kw minus the generator/charger output? I would like to have the charger permanently installed on the car.
DanCar
Well-known member
Yeah, 7kW generator is probably not enough. Probably need at least 15kW generator. Since the battery is 24kWh, I'm thinking it could charge the battery in less than 2 hours or have enough juice to drive at 60 mph or less.camasleaf said:
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
DanCar said:
You also need 395 volt DC output into the battery... that your generator isn't likely to provide.
joewaters
Well-known member
I have a 7/9K genset of the same mfr, and have used it to charge my leaf through a Juicebox EVSE once. It is bulky, noisy and it weighs over 200 lbs. My purpose for the generator is for power outages, but I have considered trailer mounting it. Biggest problem I see is that it goes through 3 gallons of gas or 10lbs propane to charge 4 hours for ~75 miles of driving using it to charge via L-2. Aside from a one-time one-way trip to transport the car, I couldn't justify the expense over renting an ICE. A smaller, lower output genset (say 3/4k) could be carried in the trunk with an EVSEupgrade, and used during a stop to feed just enough juice to reach a grid tied EVSE in dire circumstances, and be worth the 1 gal of fuel for 25 miles or so. This would be less expensive to purchase, and not require a trailer, but does still leave you sitting somewhere while it runs. To get mobile go juice, adding the Enginer pack (not sure if it works with 2013 and up), or the Ingineer style trailer, it would be pretty pricey considering what you gain for the dollar. Then look at whether your insurance will cover damage to it should an accident happen.DanCar said:
joewaters said:
Did you have any problem with your JB and onboard charger when hooked up to the generator (presuming it was not an "inverter" type genset)? A portable gas generators for rent or to buy for around $400 retail with a 3500W (continuous) rating seems adequate to power up a ~3.3kW L2 EVSE during a stop in-route (e.g. a Motel 6) without 240V outlet "facilities" to gain additional range. Maybe it would get you up to 100 miles more range (assuming 3 miles per kWh) during an overnight rest stop, given at least one gas tank refill to the generator during the night. A generator of this type would weigh ~100lbs, so manageable to lift in or out of the car by ones self, and still fit quite handily, along with a portable L2 EVSE, as cargo in the trunk. More secure that way too to deter a possible theft situation as well. Hopefully, it would not be needed, in between RV Parks, but nice to have along for the ride just in case of an unforeseen battery depletion event.
Caveat: I have a RAV4 EV, with a normal charge range of ~100 miles, so there is plenty of space in the cargo bay to haul a portable generator of this size (and extra gas can) on an out of town trip somewhere out in the boonies <200 miles from home. But, I have been told the AC output waveform of such a gas generator (non-inverter type) will not work in an EVSE charging application. The THD of the generator I have in mind is ~10 to 12%. That may or may not be too much of a dirty waveform.
joewaters
Well-known member
The genny and Juicebox play just fine with the onboard charger at 6.6kw 240v on 30 amp breaker. I can't say anything toward a lower wattage genset since I don't have one, I don't see any trouble with anything 240vac, but 120v may need to have the Juicebox reconfigured. My personal opinion is that the cheaper you try to do something, the dirtier you'll get in the long run. Lower wattage in a Leaf means longer time to charge, means more fuel spent on non-charging loads, e.g. inverter cooling, engine efficiency. It also takes longer to charge which means the generator makes noise for a longer time and you have to find something to occupy that time.
The problem with charging in the motel parking lot is that the genny is sitting out while you try to sleep (or whatever you might be doing in a motel) making noise if it is close to the rooms, and inviting theft if it's far enough away to not hear.
Personally, I think a 2kw 120vac continuous propane generator for dire emergency stuffed into the trunk with a bottle of propane might be the best safety net for someone planning a trip with preplanned roadside charging available yet not trustworthy. I would be willing to gen-charge for an hour or so to get the car moving again for the last couple of miles to a station, but not as my source of propulsion for, say 70 miles, to fill in a gap in the map sans stations on more than one occasion. Of course there are exceptions. For any trip that would take me into tomorrow charging, which I could reach by ICE today, I would choose the comfort of my own bed and take the guzzler.In my leaf, this equates to about 400 miles in my region.
If I were to travel greater distances often enough, and demand the leaf be with me, I think it would be with a supplemental battery in the trunk, Enginer style, but designed to take DCQC charging through the car. Or buy a Model S and enjoy the drive.
The problem with charging in the motel parking lot is that the genny is sitting out while you try to sleep (or whatever you might be doing in a motel) making noise if it is close to the rooms, and inviting theft if it's far enough away to not hear.
Personally, I think a 2kw 120vac continuous propane generator for dire emergency stuffed into the trunk with a bottle of propane might be the best safety net for someone planning a trip with preplanned roadside charging available yet not trustworthy. I would be willing to gen-charge for an hour or so to get the car moving again for the last couple of miles to a station, but not as my source of propulsion for, say 70 miles, to fill in a gap in the map sans stations on more than one occasion. Of course there are exceptions. For any trip that would take me into tomorrow charging, which I could reach by ICE today, I would choose the comfort of my own bed and take the guzzler.In my leaf, this equates to about 400 miles in my region.
If I were to travel greater distances often enough, and demand the leaf be with me, I think it would be with a supplemental battery in the trunk, Enginer style, but designed to take DCQC charging through the car. Or buy a Model S and enjoy the drive.
Joewaters, thanks for the feedback.
What kind of generator (make and model, rating) did you use with your LEAF and L2 JuiceBox?
I have two dogs that will be traveling with me, with enough room in back for two air matresses, so the RAV4 is preferred over most any other EVs currently available. And this would solve the potential "theft issue". With the generator running outside, and the car doors closed, and a window cracked open on the opposite side, the noise might be bearable. For a short duration charge for another 15 miles or so, I'd be more inclined to charge in-route at a rural, roadside restaurant with a seating area in plain view to the furthest side of the parking lot. This model generator has a noise spec of <69dB, which I think is about the lowest rating I could stand for any length of time. The bigger gens are generally much LOUDER!
I'm planning to use a DuroStar DS4400 (3500W max. continuous rating). It's about the largest generator at about 130 lbs (ready to run) I can manage to get in and out of my "trunk" by myself. Fortunately, the RAV4 EV has a sudden cargo bay with enough depth to carry the generator (and JB), so it does not block my view out the rear window. Also, there is an anchors on each side in the rear of the car for a 3rd seat option in the standard model RAV4 carried over into the EV. All this is good for safety, no?
It has a 4 gallon tank and the specs say it will run for ~12 hours at 50% load. I suspect, at FULL load, without over filling the tank, the run time would be like 4 to 5 hours. At 3.3kW continuous power, that would get my EV another 40 to 50 miles further down the road in case I needed an emergency charge before the next publicly available 30 to 50A outlet comes along.
Any bigger than the aforementioned generator, and I would need the wheels installed and a ramp. A ramp would take up too much space, and my only traveling companion besides the dogs is my wife, so I have to manage the generator "heavy lifting" essentially by myself.
The manufacturer told me this generator's THD is 10% (under load). This is what worries me. The THD spec for the bigger generator you cited above is only 5% and advertised to have a "clean sinewave" output. I wish the DuroStar DS4400 which is more suitable for what I really need, had been advertise the same as well. I think using it to charge my RAV4 EV may be a crap shoot. :?
What kind of generator (make and model, rating) did you use with your LEAF and L2 JuiceBox?
I have two dogs that will be traveling with me, with enough room in back for two air matresses, so the RAV4 is preferred over most any other EVs currently available. And this would solve the potential "theft issue". With the generator running outside, and the car doors closed, and a window cracked open on the opposite side, the noise might be bearable. For a short duration charge for another 15 miles or so, I'd be more inclined to charge in-route at a rural, roadside restaurant with a seating area in plain view to the furthest side of the parking lot. This model generator has a noise spec of <69dB, which I think is about the lowest rating I could stand for any length of time. The bigger gens are generally much LOUDER!
I'm planning to use a DuroStar DS4400 (3500W max. continuous rating). It's about the largest generator at about 130 lbs (ready to run) I can manage to get in and out of my "trunk" by myself. Fortunately, the RAV4 EV has a sudden cargo bay with enough depth to carry the generator (and JB), so it does not block my view out the rear window. Also, there is an anchors on each side in the rear of the car for a 3rd seat option in the standard model RAV4 carried over into the EV. All this is good for safety, no?
It has a 4 gallon tank and the specs say it will run for ~12 hours at 50% load. I suspect, at FULL load, without over filling the tank, the run time would be like 4 to 5 hours. At 3.3kW continuous power, that would get my EV another 40 to 50 miles further down the road in case I needed an emergency charge before the next publicly available 30 to 50A outlet comes along.
Any bigger than the aforementioned generator, and I would need the wheels installed and a ramp. A ramp would take up too much space, and my only traveling companion besides the dogs is my wife, so I have to manage the generator "heavy lifting" essentially by myself.
The manufacturer told me this generator's THD is 10% (under load). This is what worries me. The THD spec for the bigger generator you cited above is only 5% and advertised to have a "clean sinewave" output. I wish the DuroStar DS4400 which is more suitable for what I really need, had been advertise the same as well. I think using it to charge my RAV4 EV may be a crap shoot. :?
joewaters
Well-known member
My Genny is the Costco 'Champion' branded 7000/9000W model 41537. Same as the earlier post save for the dual fuel option. I'm sure someone in another post, Ingineer perhaps, stated that the quality of the sine wave was not an issue for the Leaf (and I estimate your Rav4) since the on board charger was just going to convert it to DC to feed the battery. Now there may be other electronics you would like to power with the genny and they may be more sensitive to waveform. As to the Juicebox, 240vac power goes into a power supply to push out dc for the arduino and 240vac for the contactor. No sensitivity to waveform there, as far as I see. I bought my genset for house power during an outage and waveform there is important.
I pictured the notion of not having transportation due to loss of electricity, and connected a pigtail for the Juicebox to see if it was capable. Although it works, I don't recommend using 6 gal of gas to charge the Leaf for my 75 mile commute when I can take an ICE and use only 2. Specs on the genny are 8 hours at 50% load to 6 gallons of gas.Halve that time for 6.6kw charging (who wants to charge slowly?) so 4 hours for ~6 gallons. Now my Leaf takes right at 4 hours at 6.6kw to go from LBW to full, around 75 miles for me. This equates roughly to 12.5 mpg. Caution that this is just rough guessing, and not confirmed through actual testing, but I can take the same economy into a 3/4 ton Dodge fullsize truck and not have to carry a genset. If you feel more confident with a genny in the trunk, make it as small as possible, say 2kw just to say you have it for emergencies. Just don't plan for it to be cost effective.
I pictured the notion of not having transportation due to loss of electricity, and connected a pigtail for the Juicebox to see if it was capable. Although it works, I don't recommend using 6 gal of gas to charge the Leaf for my 75 mile commute when I can take an ICE and use only 2. Specs on the genny are 8 hours at 50% load to 6 gallons of gas.Halve that time for 6.6kw charging (who wants to charge slowly?) so 4 hours for ~6 gallons. Now my Leaf takes right at 4 hours at 6.6kw to go from LBW to full, around 75 miles for me. This equates roughly to 12.5 mpg. Caution that this is just rough guessing, and not confirmed through actual testing, but I can take the same economy into a 3/4 ton Dodge fullsize truck and not have to carry a genset. If you feel more confident with a genny in the trunk, make it as small as possible, say 2kw just to say you have it for emergencies. Just don't plan for it to be cost effective.
http://www.powerlandonline.com/powe...esel-generator-electric-start-remote-control/
This generator says it uses .08 gal/kW, that would be 12.5 kW/gal or at 3.5 m/kw, wall to wheels, 43.5 mpg with a LEAF.
This generator says it uses .08 gal/kW, that would be 12.5 kW/gal or at 3.5 m/kw, wall to wheels, 43.5 mpg with a LEAF.
All points well taken! The reason I am not thinking about a smaller generator is because those all seem to be limited to 120Vac applications only. Recharging an EV at 120V and charging with L1 EVSE is like waiting for a brick of butter to melt at room temperature. Recharging at a rate of ~1.5MPK is just not worth it. Also, for the price of a higher quality, lower wattage Japanese generator, I could buy FIVE Chinese made generators. Japanese inverter units have great reputations, but there is no way they are worth $2000 with such limited output power ratings. Besides that, I don't have an ICE car anymore suitable for taking out of town trips with two dogs. Renting an ICE car is not an option either for the same reason.
My destination is almost attainable at the extended range limit of my RAV4 EV (135 miles). If not for the last leg over the Sierra foothills, I could probably make it before running out of juice. There is an RV Park with 30/50A hookups where I will be staying. After an overnight charge on shore power, I can visit other points of interest <100 miles round trip from that RV Park. I should be able to make it home on the reverse route with one additional extended charge the night before. A 240Vac/12.5A (3000W continuous output) generator along for the ride is just enough insurance in case I misjudge my range or there are no public L2 EVSEs nearby or get aced out of a park by a bunch of already hooked up RVs.
My destination is almost attainable at the extended range limit of my RAV4 EV (135 miles). If not for the last leg over the Sierra foothills, I could probably make it before running out of juice. There is an RV Park with 30/50A hookups where I will be staying. After an overnight charge on shore power, I can visit other points of interest <100 miles round trip from that RV Park. I should be able to make it home on the reverse route with one additional extended charge the night before. A 240Vac/12.5A (3000W continuous output) generator along for the ride is just enough insurance in case I misjudge my range or there are no public L2 EVSEs nearby or get aced out of a park by a bunch of already hooked up RVs.
johnrhansen
Well-known member
The final objective in making a car roll down the road is to put horsepower to the road to counteract the drag. Why not have the trailer just push the car and leave the electrical system out of it. At 60 mph, 20 hp produces 125 pounds of forward force, about the same force experienced in moderate braking. 4 miles per kwh is about 20 hp at 60 mph. Put a lockout in so that the throttle is chopped if the brake lights go on or if the angle between the car and hitch becomes excessive. No transmission. Gear it so that the engine is at its rated rpm at 60 mph. If the speed falls out of this range activate a clutch to disconnect. 2 jackshafts driving both wheels with a chain on each. Double vee belt sheive on the engine driving each jackshaft with one belt for each, and a motor driven idler pulley on the slack side of the belt to apply tension.
I'm sick of spending 12 hours driving 300 miles and im also sick of paying av network 20 bucks a month for their chargers that over heat my battery. I know its not the chargers its just that my leaf is a city car. Not designed for 300 mile trips. This trailer is the simplest and cheapest way for me in the long term. I know it will work. I only want to own one car, and I dont want to go through all the hassle of picking up a rental car every time I want to go anywhere. I work in testing and my trailer will be fully tested before I take it on a busy highway nobody is going to get hurt.
I am building this now. Just getting all of the components together. I expect the trailer will weigh 300 pounds, and cost about 2500. Thats with a brand new honda remote controlled industrial engine, trailer, and hitch for the car.
I'm sick of spending 12 hours driving 300 miles and im also sick of paying av network 20 bucks a month for their chargers that over heat my battery. I know its not the chargers its just that my leaf is a city car. Not designed for 300 mile trips. This trailer is the simplest and cheapest way for me in the long term. I know it will work. I only want to own one car, and I dont want to go through all the hassle of picking up a rental car every time I want to go anywhere. I work in testing and my trailer will be fully tested before I take it on a busy highway nobody is going to get hurt.
I am building this now. Just getting all of the components together. I expect the trailer will weigh 300 pounds, and cost about 2500. Thats with a brand new honda remote controlled industrial engine, trailer, and hitch for the car.
JasonA
Well-known member
lol.. so you saw my thread on the Rav forum? I did pretty much the same thing... works great...sometime we just have to be in remote locations.. there's no problem with L1 charging.. Honda's & Yamaha's can pretty much be made dead silent like studio generators and I've done it to mine..
Extended run time tank is all that was needed..
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1152&start=20
Extended run time tank is all that was needed..
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1152&start=20
Just for an apples to apples comparison, here is an online advertisement for a HONDA gas generator (non-inverter type). This unit is comparable to the power output and feature set of the Chinese made units (e.g. DuroStar). The HONDA sells for $1600, and a wheel kit costs an extra $190! The only significant difference is HONDA offers a bigger gas tank (6.3 vs. 4 gals) and not much else to justify the lofty price. Perhaps surprisingly, even the HONDA's sound spec is worse at 72 dbA (vs. 69 on DuroSar).
http://www.mowersatjacks.com/Product-Details/HONDA/655670
Would anybody in their right mind pay FOUR times more for this?
http://www.mowersatjacks.com/Product-Details/HONDA/655670
Would anybody in their right mind pay FOUR times more for this?
JasonA
Well-known member
you also tried this argument on the Rav forum and it didn't work. I also imagine that you don't understand the db rating system and how it's not a log but inverse square measurement..
60 db's is half as loud as 70 dB or twice as.. plus again, it's a gas sucker, noisy, etc.. and puts out a dirty common voltage square or modified sine wave.
Go listen to a lawn mower.. there's no difference between that generator (pretty much standard Honda commercial GX outside engine).. and REV IT UP...
That's how it'll be... enjoy
EDIT: if you really want to do it right.. and you're going to be camping somewhere for the weekend.. This is what I'd do (Rav owners prob only since we charge faster on L1).. but us Brusa guys can as well..
1. Get a Honda eu2000i for $700-$800 new (yes.. they are out there ALL DAY long. I have 1 and so do all my buddies and RV pals)..47lbs.. 59-61 db's :lol:
2. Get the Ext run time tank from ANY source online (6 or 10gal).. this will allow all weekend operation.
3. OpenEVSE with the modded L1 FW.. to 20+ amps..
This setup WITH fuel weighs less then your posted genset above empty and puts out clean pure sinewave and will run for 50+hrs on a single ext tank and charge the Leaf or Rav...
Under $1k.. Done
60 db's is half as loud as 70 dB or twice as.. plus again, it's a gas sucker, noisy, etc.. and puts out a dirty common voltage square or modified sine wave.
Go listen to a lawn mower.. there's no difference between that generator (pretty much standard Honda commercial GX outside engine).. and REV IT UP...
That's how it'll be... enjoy
EDIT: if you really want to do it right.. and you're going to be camping somewhere for the weekend.. This is what I'd do (Rav owners prob only since we charge faster on L1).. but us Brusa guys can as well..
1. Get a Honda eu2000i for $700-$800 new (yes.. they are out there ALL DAY long. I have 1 and so do all my buddies and RV pals)..47lbs.. 59-61 db's :lol:
2. Get the Ext run time tank from ANY source online (6 or 10gal).. this will allow all weekend operation.
3. OpenEVSE with the modded L1 FW.. to 20+ amps..
This setup WITH fuel weighs less then your posted genset above empty and puts out clean pure sinewave and will run for 50+hrs on a single ext tank and charge the Leaf or Rav...
Under $1k.. Done
rmay635703
Well-known member
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The only acceptable genset for an EV is one of the smaller slow turning Diesel gensets (sub 5kw and moderately lightweight)
They are around 4x more fuel efficient, even an inverter style really is not worthwhile from a fuel economy standpoint.
Looking the typical diesel genset will turn that 15mpg from the chinaman special into 32mpg just due to better BSFC.
Figure out how to splice in the power while driving using a trailer hitch pad (but it does add 165lbs to your car)
and you can turn that 32mpg into 39mpg (or higher) depending on your speed of travel and how much stationary charging you do.
Cheers
Ryan
PS http://www.generatorsales.com/order/yanmar_4kw.asp?page=yanmar_4kw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that one is probably more efficient and adds less weight than any of the other diesels I have seen.
They are around 4x more fuel efficient, even an inverter style really is not worthwhile from a fuel economy standpoint.
Looking the typical diesel genset will turn that 15mpg from the chinaman special into 32mpg just due to better BSFC.
Figure out how to splice in the power while driving using a trailer hitch pad (but it does add 165lbs to your car)
and you can turn that 32mpg into 39mpg (or higher) depending on your speed of travel and how much stationary charging you do.
Cheers
Ryan
PS http://www.generatorsales.com/order/yanmar_4kw.asp?page=yanmar_4kw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that one is probably more efficient and adds less weight than any of the other diesels I have seen.
Generators put out a sine wave. Cheap inverters put out a square or modified sine wave. With cheap generators you will get a sine wave, but the voltage and frequency may very out of utility specs, if you have big changes in load. If you are charging only an EV the load should be steady until above 90% charge. Costco has the Champion 7kW for $599 on sale. I am still leaning toward the diesel generator, I posted earlier in this thread.
rmay635703
Well-known member
- Joined
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pchilds said:
The diesel I linked to above may charge the car more slowly but based off the actual specs listed in the article (which don't quite match each other) it should be a bit more efficient and about half the weight.
That's a GREAT diesel generator choice at only $3375!!! 
I agree, the question of will a relatively low cost, kind of noisy, "dirty" sine wave generator cause problems with a L2 EVSE charging application, needs to be eliminated as a possible issue. It may or may not. I don't really know, but I plan to find out soon. However, if this turns out to NOT be an issue, as far as I'm concerned, a very infrequently used (e.g. once or twice a year camping trip) EVSE L2 charge by a reasonably portable, in-car stowed, lower weight, 240Vac output capable generator, for an unanticipated emergency while stranded somewhere, is still the BEST choice for ME. The money spent (under $400) is cheap insurance all things considered. There are certainly other alternatives that would work too, be more fuel efficient, less noisy, cleaner output power, but NOT nearly as COST EFFECTIVE on a lean vacation trip budget. Although, renting a comparable generator is probably THE MOST cost effective option for such purposes. Nevertheless, I just like to have "toys" and I've never owned a portable generator, and someday I hope to own a plug-in electric RV as well. :mrgreen:
I agree, the question of will a relatively low cost, kind of noisy, "dirty" sine wave generator cause problems with a L2 EVSE charging application, needs to be eliminated as a possible issue. It may or may not. I don't really know, but I plan to find out soon. However, if this turns out to NOT be an issue, as far as I'm concerned, a very infrequently used (e.g. once or twice a year camping trip) EVSE L2 charge by a reasonably portable, in-car stowed, lower weight, 240Vac output capable generator, for an unanticipated emergency while stranded somewhere, is still the BEST choice for ME. The money spent (under $400) is cheap insurance all things considered. There are certainly other alternatives that would work too, be more fuel efficient, less noisy, cleaner output power, but NOT nearly as COST EFFECTIVE on a lean vacation trip budget. Although, renting a comparable generator is probably THE MOST cost effective option for such purposes. Nevertheless, I just like to have "toys" and I've never owned a portable generator, and someday I hope to own a plug-in electric RV as well. :mrgreen:
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