Fresh meat

[CaptainDean]

From this completed weekend full charge, shouldn't the 50 miles actually read [with 2 bars missing] 63 ? The 50 reading is more like missing 5 bars.

Somewhere in the forum I read...
Missing 1st bar is "minus 15%" -- missing subsequent bars is "minus 6.5%" each one;

So...
(-1 bar) 80 miles "minus 15%" = 68 miles
(-2 bars) 68 miles "minus 6.5%" = 63 miles
(-3 bars) 63 miles "minus 6.5%" = 58 miles
(-4 bars) 58 miles "minus 6.5%" = 54 miles
(-5 bars) 54 miles "minus 6.5%" = 50 miles

 

[cwerdna]

The 50 is worthless. It's the guess-o-meter that gives you a guess based upon some recent driving even though it has no knowledge of your future driving. It has no idea if you will go fast, slow, up or down hill, etc. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=16253 has examples of the highest GOM readings and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=271853#p271853 .

I've had my GOM start at 80 miles and after driving 8 miles, it's gone up to 88. If I go up a hill (e.g. highway 17 in Nor Cal), the GOM will fall by 40 miles after going only 10. If you charge to full after going down/hill or slowly, at full, the GOM reading will be high. If you go up a steep hill or did highway driving and then charge to full, the full GOM reading will be low.

Your picture also doesn't show the car fully charged. I see 7 visible fuel bars out of 12. I don't know your 80 is about.

Please see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293 and consult "Use this 75% chart for a battery that has 10 of 12 capacity bar segments." further down. With a 2 bar loser (and yes, yours is), if you went 75 mph on level ground w/no HVAC usage and no wind, you should achieve about 3.0 miles/kWh or 47 miles of range before dead. If it were 35 mph, it should be about 6.3 miles/kWh or ~99 miles before dead.

Re: your 15% or 6.5% or whatever, it's supposed to be 15% for the first capacity bar (you have 10 of 12) and 6.25% for each of the rest. See http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery#Battery_Capacity_Behavior. AFAIK, for whatever reason, Nissan removed the table from the service manual w/no explanation as to why.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Yes, I forgot about the 'Guess O Meter', because like most experienced Leaf drivers, I ignore it. It can only remember something like the last 5 minutes of driving, so unless you drive everywhere at the same speed and on level ground, it's at best a mixed blessing. The registered version of the Leaf app will tell you more accurately how many miles you have left. Better still, it shows the remaining "Gid" count. A Gid is a unit of energy measurement (named here after the man who discovered it in the pack readings) that allows you to see with great accuracy how much juice is left, right down to vehicle shutdown. It's somewhat akin to seeing a display of how many ounces of gasoline you have left at all times.

 

[CaptainDean]

Thanks Cwerdna and LeftieBiker for the Guess-O-Meter and State-Of-Charge explanations,

Tomorrow (Tuesday) I will examine (and understand) the dash display and console display more closely.

About 6 or 8 months ago we relocated the wall mounted charger. The Executive Director complained that it charges slower in the new location. The building voltages are different: Old location has 480VAC 3-phase (277 on each leg) and the new location has 208VAC on each leg. (I will talk with the electrician Tuesday and find out if I'm accurate.)

In reading some posts here, it sounds like the slower charge rate is better for the battery. If true, then we made two good changes: 1) getting a slower charge rate. 2) we used to plug-in after each drive regardless of SOC, now we manage it by only plugging-in when the GOM is down to ~15 miles.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Level 2 charging doesn't seem to have a negative effect on the battery, as long as it isn't already hot when charged. You should have no more than 5 battery temperature bars (left side of dash) when charging, or no more than 6 if you have an urgent need to charge. The only charge method that may age the battery is QC, and I'm assuming that either your car doesn't have it (big second charging port next to the L-2 port) or there isn't a QC charging station there.

 

[kubel]

Dang, only 8601 miles. I'll bet it still smells new inside. My LEAF had 5x the miles and still had even less degradation when I got rid of it, though it was a year newer.

 

[CaptainDean]

Kubel, Being a fleet vehicle, this car sits a lot between uses. The Executive Director uses it to go to the airport occasionally (5 miles 1-way) and the Office Secretary uses it to check the mail daily (2 miles each way). Also the Chief Engineer uses it to check on projects (1 mile each way). Quarterly some members of the Board of Directors get whisked off to the airport. So, it eventually gets the battery consumed during the course of 1 or 2 weeks, then recharged.

LeftieBiker, How do I prevent the temperature of the battery from getting too hot while charging?

 

[LeftieBiker]

How do I prevent the temperature of the battery from getting too hot while charging?

It isn't so much a case of charging heating the pack up a lot, as it is a problem with the pack not being able to cool off if it's hot when charging starts. Given the way the car is used, it seems unlikely that it gets very hot. Just letting it cool until it gets cool outside (and not plugging it in to charge when it's 90F outside) should be all you need to do, and then only if it shows 6 bars or more.

 

[downeykp]

I have never had more than 6 temp. bars charging with 220 in upper HPP.

How do I prevent the temperature of the battery from getting too hot while charging?

It isn't so much a case of charging heating the pack up a lot, as it is a problem with the pack not being able to cool off if it's hot when charging starts. Given the way the car is used, it seems unlikely that it gets very hot. Just letting it cool until it gets cool outside (and not plugging it in to charge when it's 90F outside) should be all you need to do, and then only if it shows 6 bars or more.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I have never had more than 6 temp. bars charging with 220 in upper HPP.

Six bars is marginally hot. I try to keep it to no more than 5 bars, but then I use L-1.

 

[Jefe]

Kubel, Being a fleet vehicle, this car sits a lot between uses.

And that, my guess, is your problem. When I saw the 8K on the dash, I figured this to be a car that does a lot of parking. Leafs like to go. The more it sits, the harder it is on the battery. Especially if you charge it up to 100% capacity and let it sit for extended periods.

How do I prevent the temperature of the battery from getting too hot while charging?

Probably not something you have to worry about, but if you are charging on a hot day in direct sun, or if you drove it on a hot day and the battery is getting hot, and you plug it right in.

 

[golfcart]

How do I prevent the temperature of the battery from getting too hot while charging?

Do you park it in the shade? That battery pack is only a couple feet off the ground. I'm no expert on these things, but it seems like that would have a big impact if the packs hate heat.

I lived on Oahu for 7 years and can attest to the fact that parking lots get hot as hell during the mid-day sun out there even if the trades are blowing and it's only 85 outside. When I was teaching a meteorology lab at UH Manoa we used to go outside and use an IR thermometer to measure the temperatures of different surfaces in the sun to show how different colors and materials heat up differently. Long story short, the black asphalt parking lot was routinely 120 - 130+ F on a warm sunny day with that tropical sun beating down on it. A shady spot would easily be 30 degrees cooler.

 

[golfcart]

Kubel, Being a fleet vehicle, this car sits a lot between uses. The Executive Director uses it to go to the airport occasionally (5 miles 1-way) and the Office Secretary uses it to check the mail daily (2 miles each way). Also the Chief Engineer uses it to check on projects (1 mile each way). Quarterly some members of the Board of Directors get whisked off to the airport. So, it eventually gets the battery consumed during the course of 1 or 2 weeks, then recharged.

If you don't mind my asking, what type of performance would make the vehicle more satisfactory? Nothing you have said here makes it sound like the leaf can't complete it's typical duties pretty easily... are there trips that people would like to take in the leaf but are unable to due to range anxiety? If so, how far would those trips be?

I don't know exactly where you are but if I assume Kailua-Kona (5 miles from airport) then I think Hilo via Saddle rd would probably be a stretch due to the elevation changes and lack of charging on the mountain, but anywhere on the Kona side seems pretty doable especially with plugshare (http://www.plugshare.com/) showing pretty good charging infrastructure on that side of the island.

 

[downeykp]

Kona is 90 mi. from Hilo. A fresh Leaf could make it over Saddle road, but a charge would need to be found somewhere around Waikoloa.
There are many places to charge in Hilo for free. There shouldn't be range anxiety as long as kona isn't your destination.

Kubel, Being a fleet vehicle, this car sits a lot between uses. The Executive Director uses it to go to the airport occasionally (5 miles 1-way) and the Office Secretary uses it to check the mail daily (2 miles each way). Also the Chief Engineer uses it to check on projects (1 mile each way). Quarterly some members of the Board of Directors get whisked off to the airport. So, it eventually gets the battery consumed during the course of 1 or 2 weeks, then recharged.

If you don't mind my asking, what type of performance would make the vehicle more satisfactory? Nothing you have said here makes it sound like the leaf can't complete it's typical duties pretty easily... are there trips that people would like to take in the leaf but are unable to due to range anxiety? If so, how far would those trips be?

I don't know exactly where you are but if I assume Kailua-Kona (5 miles from airport) then I think Hilo via Saddle rd would probably be a stretch due to the elevation changes and lack of charging on the mountain, but anywhere on the Kona side seems pretty doable especially with plugshare (http://www.plugshare.com/) showing pretty good charging infrastructure on that side of the island.

 

[golfcart]

Kona is 90 mi. from Hilo. A fresh Leaf could make it over Saddle road, but a charge would need to be found somewhere around Waikoloa.
There are many places to charge in Hilo for free. There shouldn't be range anxiety as long as kona isn't your destination.

I thought the OP is on the Kona side near the airport? All I am saying is that if they are staying on the Kona side the leaf should be fine for day to day use... even if the realistic range has degraded to 60 miles or so. The only issues I can see would arise from trying to go to Hilo, South Point, or some far off destination with large elevation changes on the route. But the OP said it only gets charged one a week or so which makes it sound like it is just for around town.

I have driven from Kona to Hilo and back over saddle rd a few times for work and I don't think any leaf would make that drive on one charge given that it rises over 6000ft... I certainly haven't tried it in an EV (haven't lived in Hawaii since 2009) but it seems like a stretch. Just lifting the car 2km vertically uses approximately 9kWh of energy using idealized physics E = m*g*h. That is about 42% of your capacity (assuming 21kWh) just climbing, nevermind the distance covered horizontally. I'm sure you would regen on the way down but making to the top would be tough. Have you actually made that drive?

 

[downeykp]

Your right. I missed the part about the leeward side of the island. This (for those that don't know) is a very dry part of the Big Island, unless they are on the Captain Cook side of Kona.
It is uncomfortably warm for most of the year, (no cloud cover). Sun is very direct and hot, think AZ before it gets really hot in late Spring. So unless this car is garaged, (which it sounds like it isn't) it will bake in the Kona heat.

Kona is 90 mi. from Hilo. A fresh Leaf could make it over Saddle road, but a charge would need to be found somewhere around Waikoloa.
There are many places to charge in Hilo for free. There shouldn't be range anxiety as long as kona isn't your destination.

I thought the OP is on the Kona side near the airport? All I am saying is that if they are staying on the Kona side the leaf should be fine for day to day use... even if the realistic range has degraded to 60 miles or so. The only issues I can see would arise from trying to go to Hilo, South Point, or some far off destination with large elevation changes on the route. But the OP said it only gets charged one a week or so which makes it sound like it is just for around town.

I have driven from Kona to Hilo and back over saddle rd a few times for work and I don't think any leaf would make that drive on one charge given that it rises over 6000ft... I certainly haven't tried it in an EV (haven't lived in Hawaii since 2009) but it seems like a stretch. Just lifting the car 2km vertically uses approximately 9kWh of energy using idealized physics E = m*g*h. That is about 42% of your capacity (assuming 21kWh) just climbing, nevermind the distance covered horizontally. I'm sure you would regen on the way down but making to the top would be tough. Have you actually made that drive?

 

[CaptainDean]

This (for those that don't know) is a very dry part of the Big Island, unless they are on the Captain Cook side of Kona. It is uncomfortably warm for most of the year, (no cloud cover). Sun is very direct and hot, think AZ before it gets really hot in late Spring. So unless this car is garaged, (which it sounds like it isn't) it will bake in the Kona heat.

When we were planning to move here, I told people we were moving to Phoenix by the sea.

Each island has 4 cardinal sides, and each west side is hot, each east side is rainy, each south side is windy, and each north side is rainy & windy.

This Leaf is parked on the east side of a building, so it gets morning sun until about noon. Afternoons provide shade, except during the middle of summer when the sun passes northward overhead -- something only found in the tropics. On those days the car gets morning and midday sun until 2 or 3 PM. Here are our coordinates,but our elevation is about 10 feet.

 

[CaptainDean]

Golfcart 1: If you don't mind my asking, what type of performance would make the vehicle more satisfactory?

Golfcart 2: I don't know exactly where you are but if I assume Kailua-Kona (5 miles from airport) then I think Hilo via Saddle rd would probably be a stretch due to the elevation changes ...

Answer 1: Golfcart, Performance is excellent. The Executive Director is complaining the battery is failing early and wants a new one for free. As it is turning out, it seems we have been treating the car improperly, thus causing the battery to lose Bars prematurely. At first we charged after each drive, but now we charge only after the Guess-O-Meter gets down to ~15 miles. Secondly we have been allowing the car to sit for long periods and only going to check the mail 2 miles away. After reading everyone's wisdom in the forum, I understand the Leaf battery wants to be exercised and taxed daily, and not ignored.

If the Executive Director's complaints are based on facts, then the battery has recovered some -- enough to not qualify for a free battery replacement. Bummer.

Answer 2: As the crow flies, the Kona airport is about 1000' away. However by road, it's actually about 4 1/2 miles away. The car was taken to Waimea (halfway to Hilo) and had to be towed back. So no one takes it further than into town, which is a maximum of 10-12 miles away. That includes hills.

 

[CaptainDean]

The only charge method that may age car has is QC, and I'm assuming that either your car doesn't have it (big second charging port next to the L-2 port) or there isn't a QC charging station there.

Seems like this car only has the quick charge connection?

 

[CaptainDean]

Off topic: I lived on Oahu for 7 years and can attest to the fact that parking lots get hot as hell during the mid-day sun out there even if the trades are blowing and it's only 85 outside. When I was teaching a meteorology lab at UH Manoa we used to go outside and use an IR thermometer to measure the temperatures of different surfaces in the sun to show how different colors and materials heat up differently.

Off topic, I used to work at the solar plant in the Natural Energy Lab in Kona. While you were teaching Meteorology, did you learn and teach the Analemma? I learned a great deal about our solar weather from the Analemma. Build one at home and you'll have fun.