Free charging is NOT a good thing.

[TickTock]

The best practice is the method employed by the L2 chargers at the Sky Harbor airport parking structure. You are charged per hour plugged in (regardless of charging activity). I learned the hard way when I took a day trip to CA. I really wish someone had been around to unplug me at 10:30am when I was done. That one hurt.

 

[timhebb]

Just to step back a little, it doesn't seem fair to blame free charging for the abuses of some EV drivers.

Free charging is a good thing. So is paid charging - at a fair price. Even overpriced paid charging is OK - as long as it lasts (the free market will ensure it doesn't last very long).

ALL charging is a good thing. We need more charging opportunities - paid, unpaid, overpaid, whatever - to build the infrastructure and therefore encourage and accelerate the EV migration.

 

[pkulak]

The minimum price should mimic home electric rates so that charging in public costs about the same or more as home.

+1

eVgo got their rates just about right in San Diego. First you decide whether or not $15/month is worth it to you for range peace of mind with a rapidly degrading battery. Then if you go for it they could have had the same charger squatting problem if they had set a zero *incremental* cost. But on top of the monthly fee they charge a per minute fee that works out to just about the same price as charging at home during peak TOU rates.

Thus if you don't need the charge there's no incentive to drive out of your way to use an eVgo charger rather than more conveniently charging at home. But if you do need the charge there's no incentive to take excessive risk with your range to save a few pennies at home. You do just as well to charge where you need when you need.

Finally since the fee is per minute instead of per kWh there is a big incentive to unplug and get out of the way as soon as you have what you need, since the fee per kWh goes up sharply after 80%.

Yeah, that really is just about perfect. Do you have to pay the $15 though? That would be fine if a company had a _really_ comprehensive network, but if there are 3-4 different companies in your state, that would suck to have to pay a monthly fee to each one just to make it where you need to go.

 

[Zythryn]

Just to step back a little, it doesn't seem fair to blame free charging for the abuses of some EV drivers.

Free charging is a good thing. So is paid charging - at a fair price. Even overpriced paid charging is OK - as long as it lasts (the free market will ensure it doesn't last very long).

ALL charging is a good thing. We need more charging opportunities - paid, unpaid, overpaid, whatever - to build the infrastructure and therefore encourage and accelerate the EV migration.

Not necessarily.
If chronic overcrowding happens due to free chargers, it will actually slow the adoption of EVs.
This can be solved by EV owners acting responsibly (which many do, but a few do not), additional free chargers so some are always available, pricing structure so that charging is free, but taking up the space unnecessarily is costly.

Otherwise, you have people reading about, or hearing from friends how they have difficulty finding a place to charge.

 

[DaveEV]

Yeah, that really is just about perfect. Do you have to pay the $15 though? That would be fine if a company had a _really_ comprehensive network, but if there are 3-4 different companies in your state, that would suck to have to pay a monthly fee to each one just to make it where you need to go.

They have an a-la-carte rate so you don't have to pay a monthly. In San Diego, the rates are:

DCQC: $4.95/session + $0.20/minute
L2: $1.50/hr (don't know how granular the billing is here).

If you pay the $14.95/month member fee, it's:
DCQC: $0.10/minute
L2: $1.00/hr

They also have a $5.95/month L2 membership:
DCQC: $4.95/session + $0.20/minute
L2: $1.00/hr

Personally, I would prefer that the DCQC a-la-carte plan had a lower session fee and a higher rate/minute. Just charge $0.30/minute (stick a minimum charge on it if you must). A 30 minute QC is going to cost you $10.95 on the a-la-carte plan. If you QC more than two times/month on average for a year, you should get the membership.

http://www.evgonetwork.com/san-diego-county/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The best practice is the method employed by the L2 chargers at the Sky Harbor airport parking structure. You are charged per hour plugged in (regardless of charging activity). I learned the hard way when I took a day trip to CA. I really wish someone had been around to unplug me at 10:30am when I was done. That one hurt.

Obviously long-term parking needs to have different fee schedules. And either they need some sort of valet service or enough plugs to handle all cars that might need/want to charge even if many are stuck there for a while.

 

[Nubo]

I'd like to see free spots start charging 30 minutes after the charge completes until the plug is removed.

Amend J1772 so that when charge completes, the plug loudly and forcefully pops out, like when Neo was being disconnected from the Matrix.

 

[BiosDude]

PSU Electric avenue was great a year ago when I got my Leaf (Happy anniversary my trusty electron steed!) You could almost always find an open DCQC and/or L2. I swung by about 3 months ago to grab some food on the way home and some juice. Both DCQC were in use, so I plugged into the single open L2. After grabbing the food, I headed back to witness a guy getting out of his Leaf at a DCQC, grabbing his backpack, and muttering about his 2 hour class and the drinks afterwards. I have no doubt he left his leaf plugged into the DCQC for the 2+ hours. There were 2 L2's available. I do NOT count on getting any juice from that charging location, ever. I loath per session charging models and would prefer to see time based charging with a sliding scale based on kWH consumption. The less kWH you are consuming, the more expensive it is to park there. [start vent] It's a charging station, not a parking space. [end vent]

 

[smkettner]

I am all for free charging.... But just for lower power L2 and put in lots of them. No network preferred to save cost and supply more connectors.

Certainly L3 needs to charge something even if the first 30 minutes is free.

 

[TRONZ]

The "loiter" mentality is a side effect of how most of our current infrastructure is used. Slow L2 is the origin of this mentality and it's done a great job of training people to hang out at chargers and turn bystanders off to EV's. This is bad! Price is not the issue, its the speed of service and where it's done. The faster people get charged up and back on the road, the more compelling electrification becomes. Tesla gets it. Nissan "says" they get it... but is waiting for someone else to build it. Very interested to see what BMW does.

 

[davewill]

I never leave a QC unattended when charging.

I don't either. Unless I need to pee. And then I come straight back (feeling a lot better).

Me three. I might to go into a convenience store, and I when I used the QC at McDonald's in Riverside, I ate lunch while I charged...but the whole time, I could SEE my car, and could monitor status on my phone.

 

[jsongster]

As more non-enthusiast/hobbyist drivers enter the group... we get more folks like the one I ran into at the SF auto show. This guy was very upset at the rates that were charged on HIS parking spot. He drove a VOLT. He had been parking there for free and thought is was a great benny. He was indignant until I said... " Only supposed to park there when you need the EVSE. " Then he got sheepish and realized he completely misunderstood the situation. ( I've got teens at home... It really is all about them... .

The guy with the murder nonsense is clearly a moron... but most others can be reasoned with and nice notes will likely work better than doggy poo in their chargeport.

But if it doesn't,.. and their vehicle is past 80%... unplug them with impunity. And report it to the folks that are in charge of the equipment and ask for better signs and enforcement of limits... This joker is either a greedy abuser or just a cowardly lion who doesn't understand the reality of the situation. Unless he owns the DCFC... I'd call a cop and have him towed just to make the point.

IMHO charging that ramps up after 80% or 30 minute to 1 hour limits on DCFCs seems to be the best answer. My favorite solution for L2 at stores like a Local Target is free for first 2 hours... then regular chargepoint rates. Seems very fair to me. The San Rafael store also has about 20 L2s. A marvelous install. The have a small problem with ICEing... that they claim to be working to fix. Their signage is too high to see for many cars and they are going to paint the spots also. Kudos to Target San Rafael. I go out of my way to shop there.

 

[smkettner]

The "loiter" mentality is a side effect of how most of our current infrastructure is used. Slow L2 is the origin of this mentality and it's done a great job of training people to hang out at chargers and turn bystanders off to EV's. This is bad! Price is not the issue, its the speed of service and where it's done. The faster people get charged up and back on the road, the more compelling electrification becomes. Tesla gets it. Nissan "says" they get it... but is waiting for someone else to build it. Very interested to see what BMW does.

The "loiter" mentality is also part of the location. For the price of an L3 at a school there could have been at least 10 maybe 25 low power L2 spots perfect for that 3+ hour student noted above to loiter on.

 

[TRONZ]

The OP is talking about someone trying to own an L3.

 

[DarkStar]

Well, get it while you can because Electric Avenue is being shut down at the beginning of the summer so Portland State University can expand their campus. The stations will probably be moved around the campus, but they won't be grouped together. The Eaton QCDC will be returned to Eaton and won't be relocated.

Also, Electric Avenue was installed as a research project, taking a look at the different charging stations and their usage. These are metered parking spots (at $0.80/hour) and you have to be charging in order to stay parked there.

 

[pkulak]

Well, get it while you can because Electric Avenue is being shut down at the beginning of the summer so Portland State University can expand their campus. The stations will probably be moved around the campus, but they won't be grouped together. The Eaton QCDC will be returned to Eaton and won't be relocated.

Also, Electric Avenue was installed as a research project, taking a look at the different charging stations and their usage. These are metered parking spots (at $0.80/hour) and you have to be charging in order to stay parked there.

Ah. I didn't notice the metering.

I do really like it when cities use a parking meter though. The Nissan QC at the Salem courthouse is great. I think a quarter gets you 3 minutes, so it works out to just paying for the electricity ($0.12 per kWh if I did my quick math right).

 

[timhebb]

Not necessarily.
If chronic overcrowding happens due to free chargers, it will actually slow the adoption of EVs.
This can be solved by EV owners acting responsibly (which many do, but a few do not), additional free chargers so some are always available, pricing structure so that charging is free, but taking up the space unnecessarily is costly.

Otherwise, you have people reading about, or hearing from friends how they have difficulty finding a place to charge.

Again, chronic overcrowding does not happen because of free charging; it might happen due to not enough free charging, or not enough paid charging. I have witnessed and experienced demand exceeding supply in both situations.

In and of itself, free charging can't be blamed, only the irresponsible actions of EV drivers, which you admit are in the minority. Even the charging providers need to accept some of the blame, if they fail to post clear, strong signage with explicit rules, regulations and time limits, and don't follow up with strict enforcement of those policies.

 

[DarkStar]

I do really like it when cities use a parking meter though. The Nissan QC at the Salem courthouse is great. I think a quarter gets you 3 minutes, so it works out to just paying for the electricity ($0.12 per kWh if I did my quick math right).

Unfortunately none of the parking meter revenue goes toward paying for the DCQC charger there at the capitol. This unit was going to be shut down, but the Oregon Electric Vehicle Association stepped in to help pay for electricity costs... The OEVA is relying on members and sponsors to help pay for it...

 

[Zythryn]

...
In and of itself, free charging can't be blamed, only the irresponsible actions of EV drivers, which you admit are in the minority. Even the charging providers need to accept some of the blame, if they fail to post clear, strong signage with explicit rules, regulations and time limits, and don't follow up with strict enforcement of those policies.

No one item can be blamed "in and of itself". All are contributing factors.
Free charging contributes to inconsiderate use of the chargers.
If you have a free charger in every single parking spot, great.
If you have a limited number of chargers, making them free just encourages poor behavior.

You can eliminate those that don't need a charge, but take it because it is free by charging for the charge.
You can cut down on the people that hog the spot for 6 hours by charging once the car is no longer drawing current.

 

[pkulak]

I do really like it when cities use a parking meter though. The Nissan QC at the Salem courthouse is great. I think a quarter gets you 3 minutes, so it works out to just paying for the electricity ($0.12 per kWh if I did my quick math right).

Unfortunately none of the parking meter revenue goes toward paying for the DCQC charger there at the capitol. This unit was going to be shut down, but the Oregon Electric Vehicle Association stepped in to help pay for electricity costs... The OEVA is relying on members and sponsors to help pay for it...

Wait, what??? So the cost of electricity has to be donated, even though I pay for it directly?

 

[UBUYGAS]

The minimum price should mimic home electric rates so that charging in public costs about the same or more as home.

That's a Great Idea!

I think my electric company should come out with a FOB that works with all networks and when I swipe it the charge goes to My Electric bill at the rate I pay at home.