FOX News: Solar Power pointless because insufficient sun!

[GRA]

If some individual wants to put PV modules on their roof in Dusseldorf, go for it. But the government shouldn't be subsidizing it, and they sure as hell shouldn't be subsidizing commercial solar, at least in Germany. The kind of capacity factors that are possible require far too much surface area and cost way too much to be cost-effective, until solar modules are no more expensive than roof shingles (or ARE roof shingles, as a couple of companies have tried to develop).

Well, it is bringing prices down and encourages development...so money spent in Germany on solar initially wasn't so bad, because it created technology jobs and the development of an industry, which was not there before.

It is true that Germans are now complaining about the extra cost of electricity, because the solar subsidies are just slapped onto the regular energy prices. But for a people, who in severe a case of irrational fear and panic decided abandon nuclear power because of an earthquake on the other side of the globe, it serves them right now to pay up for renewable energy.

And in the long term it might turn out to be a prudent investment.

Solar sales and installations anywhere will bring prices down - it makes no sense to incentivize sales where they are the least cost-effective. Besides, why does Germany need to spend any of their own money? The Chinese government has done more to bring down the world price of solar through massive government subsidies than anything done anywhere else in the past five years. If the Germans want to install solar they should pay to put them in Spain and Portugal, and then build the interties to get the power to them.

Re the nukes, no argument from me.

 

[klapauzius]

If the Germans want to install solar they should pay to put them in Spain and Portugal, and then build the interties to get the power to them.

Sadly, Europe is lacking the necessary vision to do this kind of thing. Also, building a power grid along with it would have been very expensive.

Admittedly, that would have been the right thing to do especially long term, but sometime in the middle ages, people stopped planning for posterity.

The same goes for the US, though. If we had a modern high voltage DC grid, we could fill a relative small portion of desert in the southwest with solar (on this scale probably mirrors rather than PV) and would have enough power for the next couple billion years.

 

[dgpcolorado]

You'll also get a benefit from sunlight reflecting off snow in front of the panels, if your panels aren't mounted too high above the ground. If I wanted an ideal location for PV, it would theoretically be on top of Mt. Chimborazo in Ecuador. Oh, and if there are some nice puffy cumulus around, when the sun just touches them you'll get what's known as cloud-edge effect, which will boost the output even more, albeit briefly.

Yes, my highest ever production days have been due to the cloud-edge effect. My best was 4.99 kWh from a 700 watt array.

But with regard to my surprise at having similar solar resources to southern Spain, according to the NREL charts surfingslovak posted, you can see one difference between there and here from this morning's picture of my array just before I dusted the snow off it:

Today looks to be an excellent solar day: clear, sunny, and fairly cold (19ºF at 11 AM).
I'm guessing that Spain at 38º N latitude likely doesn't have to deal with much snow; isn't it a citrus growing area? Maybe I'm all wrong about that.

 

[klapauzius]

I'm guessing that Spain at 38º N latitude likely doesn't have to deal with much snow; isn't it a citrus growing area? Maybe I'm all wrong about that.

They do have snow, not much on the Mediterranean coast (that is where all the citrus would come from), but inland and the mountains can get cold enough in winter.

 

[GRA]

If the Germans want to install solar they should pay to put them in Spain and Portugal, and then build the interties to get the power to them.

Sadly, Europe is lacking the necessary vision to do this kind of thing. Also, building a power grid along with it would have been very expensive.

Admittedly, that would have been the right thing to do especially long term, but sometime in the middle ages, people stopped planning for posterity.

The same goes for the US, though. If we had a modern high voltage DC grid, we could fill a relative small portion of desert in the southwest with solar (on this scale probably mirrors rather than PV) and would have enough power for the next couple billion years.

There has been some discussion of building solar plants in North Africa, which is where Europe really needs to go if they want renewables to replace fossil fuels. Given the cost and the political turmoil, that's going to be a non-starter for some time. For more, see:

http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/c25/page_177.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and

http://www.desertec.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As to the U.S., there are lots of solar projects coming online in the California desert in the next couple of years, and I expect Nevada and Arizona will get on board too, especially if the EPA requires major retrofitting of older coal-plants. But we still need cheap storage, or else nukes for base load.

 

[klapauzius]

But we still need cheap storage, or else nukes for base load.

It has been said that the LEAFS batteries could be used for that, when they are no longer good for automotive uses. I wonder if any projects exist that aim at the large-scale integration of these batteries in the near future?

If in e.g. 8 years time all the LEAFS in the US that have been sold so far in the US need a new battery. Lets assume for simplicity sake 15,000 batteries at 70%, that would mean 210 MWh of storage, which might be enough to back up a small utility or ~ 8750 households for a day....not too impressive, given the cost of managing all these batteries.

 

[Reddy]

But we still need cheap storage, or else nukes for base load.

It has been said that the LEAFS batteries could be used for that, when they are no longer good for automotive uses. I wonder if any projects exist that aim at the large-scale integration of these batteries in the near future?

If in e.g. 8 years time all the LEAFS in the US that have been sold so far in the US need a new battery. Lets assume for simplicity sake 15,000 batteries at 70%, that would mean 210 MWh of storage, which might be enough to back up a small utility or ~ 8750 households for a day....not too impressive, given the cost of managing all these batteries.

Actually, the numbers are staggering. Here's a study that suggests 3.7 GW needed just for "balancing" in the NWPP due to future wind power (~15 GW). That will require millions of vehicles (V2G half or full) or batteries.
http://www.pnnl.gov/main/publications/external/technical_reports/PNNL-20501.pdf
Note that this is not seasonal, monthly, weekly or even overnight storage, it's just the minute-by-minute variability in the grid. Last month we had more than two weeks without wind. Storage is just not practical under those situations.

I haven't read it yet, but here's a similar report for PV:
http://www.pnnl.gov/main/publications/external/technical_reports/PNNL-22064.pdf

Below is the latest 7 days of BPA power production/consumption/transmission. Renewables (wind in this case) are definitely displacing thermal sources, with hydro doing the balancing and being reduced slightly as well. However, mostly I see that more power is sent out (net interchange). These guys are doing a great job integrating nearly 5 GW wind into the system. I expect next spring, when demand dips due to the nice weather, we will see more wind power produced than is consumed locally for the first time. I'm guessing around May, but certainly a couple of nights in mid June as always happens (that is if they don't curtail them). Also, here's the current installed capacity (approaching 5 GW):
http://transmission.bpa.gov/Business/Operations/Wind/WIND_InstalledCapacity_PLOT.pdf

 

[klapauzius]

I think if there was a nationwide interchange, the problem of balancing the renewables would become smaller, because the sun is always shining somewhere (only during the day....but across the whole US we already have 3h of extra coverage) and the wind is also blowing somewhere all the time.

A national system would probably need a DC network to be practical.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

But we still need cheap storage, or else nukes for base load.

It has been said that the LEAFS batteries could be used for that, when they are no longer good for automotive uses. I wonder if any projects exist that aim at the large-scale integration of these batteries in the near future?

If in e.g. 8 years time all the LEAFS in the US that have been sold so far in the US need a new battery. Lets assume for simplicity sake 15,000 batteries at 70%, that would mean 210 MWh of storage, which might be enough to back up a small utility or ~ 8750 households for a day....not too impressive, given the cost of managing all these batteries.

hmmm, surprised you think that way. maybe we are not looking at it correctly. as a baseload the amount of power is not very significant but used as a way to store solar or wind for use later iow, used for load balancing, then it does become quite a bit. probably more than enough to lower the base load demand significantly.

AESC had an emergency power unit using 3 LEAF battery packs (could be expanded to at least 5 or 6 in a unit about the size of a medium u haul trailer. as far as what role the unit played (or even if it was playing a role at all) I dont know if it was on standby as a UPS or what but something like this could be used to store solar or wind to be used at night which in theory could take certain installations completely off the grid. I can see a military purpose for it which would allow an installation to run a certain time period (ala "Walking Dead") without having to store massive amounts of liquid fuel on site...

 

[Reddy]

I think if there was a nationwide interchange, the problem of balancing the renewables would become smaller, because the sun is always shining somewhere (only during the day....but across the whole US we already have 3h of extra coverage) and the wind is also blowing somewhere all the time.

A national system would probably need a DC network to be practical.

Agreed. I'm no expert, but if we had a nationwide interchange, how far could we "balance"? I know WA hydro is sent to CA and has been for decades. I'm not really sure how balancing works and whether you need multiple sites.

 

[GRA]

I think if there was a nationwide interchange, the problem of balancing the renewables would become smaller, because the sun is always shining somewhere (only during the day....but across the whole US we already have 3h of extra coverage) and the wind is also blowing somewhere all the time.

A national system would probably need a DC network to be practical.

Agreed. I'm no expert, but if we had a nationwide interchange, how far could we "balance"? I know WA hydro is sent to CA and has been for decades. I'm not really sure how balancing works and whether you need multiple sites.

Re batteries, FWIW, a few years ago Bill Gates said at a tech conference that all the batteries then existing in the world could store just 10 minutes of the world's energy usage. And that's ignoring the cost, which is far too high by several orders of magnitude.

Load-leveling on a small scale is doable, and a few utilities are experimenting with it. This is hardly a new idea, as utilities were using batteries for load-leveling or peak-shaving more than 100 years ago. But once it became cheaper to generate and distribute AC, batteries quickly fell from favor, as their purchase and maintenance costs were much higher.

Pumped storage is by far the cheapest form of energy storage, and batteries, flywheels etc. have a very long way to go before they can compete economically.

RE HVDC, the cost to build all the interties that would be needed in our balkanized grid system (essentially four separate regional grids with minimal interties) runs into the hundreds of billions, and would take decades to complete. Renewables would absolutely need those to work, because much of the solar and wind resources in this country are nowhere near the major population centers where the power would be used.

 

[klapauzius]

I think if there was a nationwide interchange, the problem of balancing the renewables would become smaller, because the sun is always shining somewhere (only during the day....but across the whole US we already have 3h of extra coverage) and the wind is also blowing somewhere all the time.

A national system would probably need a DC network to be practical.

Agreed. I'm no expert, but if we had a nationwide interchange, how far could we "balance"? I know WA hydro is sent to CA and has been for decades. I'm not really sure how balancing works and whether you need multiple sites.

I guess the basic idea is that each local renewable, i.e. wind or solar, is essentially a random producer of energy. For simplicity sake assume that they can produce a random amount of energy between 0 and 1. If you have a large number of independent producers, say n, then you get a relative stable energy output of n*.5 (assuming a uniform distribution for all energy sources).
The small ripples in the mean energy could be smoothed e.g. by batteries, pumping large quantities of water into reservoirs (natural or artificial) etc.

Since both solar and wind are dependent on the weather, if you have a local weather system, having a large amount in a small area will not help, because they are not independent with respect to the weather. But if you move to a larger area, such as the continental US, the "average" weather becomes more random and eventually your output becomes independent of the weather (which is highly desirable I assume ). For the night time loss of solar, you would have to cover the whole earth...

 

[klapauzius]

Pumped storage is by far the cheapest form of energy storage, and batteries, flywheels etc. have a very long way to go before they can compete economically.

While Desertec for the Europeans is probably dead for the short term, the Norwegians and the EU are planning a huge power line across the North sea. All the excess Solar or Wind power, e.g. generated in Germany, will then be used to pump up the Norwegian lakes in the mountains (they have plenty of water and mountains, apparently enough to buffer the whole of western Europe).

Something like that would work here too, and you wouldn't even have to run the cables...But a modern grid would again be required...

 

[GRA]

Pumped storage is by far the cheapest form of energy storage, and batteries, flywheels etc. have a very long way to go before they can compete economically.

While Desertec for the Europeans is probably dead for the short term, the Norwegians and the EU are planning a huge power line across the North sea. All the excess Solar or Wind power, e.g. generated in Germany, will then be used to pump up the Norwegian lakes in the mountains (they have plenty of water and mountains, apparently enough to buffer the whole of western Europe).

Something like that would work here too, and you wouldn't even have to run the cables...But a modern grid would again be required...

Good to know someone's moving on it. I've just googled "norway pumped storage' and found some links with details, so I'm going to dive into that. Here's a couple:

http://norwegen.ahk.de/fileadmin/ahk_norwegen/Dokumente/Presentasjoner/wasserkraft/Design_of_Future_Pumped_Storage_CEDREN_Killingtveit.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.cedren.no/News/Article/tabid/3599/ArticleId/1079/Can-Norway-be-Europe-s-green-battery.aspx#Hva_er_behovet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And for those who may want a primer on renewables and energy storage, and electricity usage fluctuations in general, it's hard to beat:

http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/c26/page_186.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

well we all know that green energy is expensive right now but that cost is dropping but we still have options! not sure i want those options because we still pay for it in the end

http://www.theonion.com/articles/millions-of-barrels-of-oil-safely-reach-port-in-ma,17875/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

well we all know that green energy is expensive right now but that cost is dropping but we still have options! not sure i want those options because we still pay for it in the end

http://www.theonion.com/articles/millions-of-barrels-of-oil-safely-reach-port-in-ma,17875/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On a topical note:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/more-than-1000-russians-injured-in-freaking-cooles,31321/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

well we all know that green energy is expensive right now but that cost is dropping but we still have options! not sure i want those options because we still pay for it in the end

http://www.theonion.com/articles/millions-of-barrels-of-oil-safely-reach-port-in-ma,17875/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On a topical note:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/more-than-1000-russians-injured-in-freaking-cooles,31321/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

not everything in the Onion is fit for reposting...

 

[AndyH]

Grid storage - this is the year for a number of projects - from batteries to compressed air.

http://www.sandia.gov/ess/docs/pr_conferences/2011/3_Ratnayake_Notrees.pdf
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21729026.000-texas-megabattery-aims-to-green-up-the-grid.html

The Notrees battery is the first in a wave of new grid-connected storage systems funded in 2009 by power companies and the US Department of Energy (DOE) that are expected to come online this year. Notrees has bus-sized, lead-acid battery modules with high surface area electrodes and multiple terminals, so electricity flows in and out quickly.

Most of the other DOE-funded projects look very different. The California-based Pacific Gas and Electricity Company will soon start filling depleted gas wells near Bakersfield with compressed air that can deliver 300 MW of power. In Modesto, a wind farm will be backed up by a 25 MW storage system based on a zinc-chloride flow battery, which is charged by filling with a reusable electrolyte liquid. The battery will replace a planned 50 MW fossil fuel plant.

 

[AndyH]

Stumbled on this today - fun!

http://pvsolarreport.com/index.php?...em&id=656:where-the-sun-doesnt-shine&Itemid=2

What’s really on the decline is not solar. It’s a couple other things -- and one of those is Fox News itself. A recent poll shows that the network’s credibility is at an all-time low, though that’s still not low enough when you consider how many people continue to absorb its misinformation. And while other media outlets may not be as laughably off-base as Fox (which some are now comparing to The Onion), the American public is not getting an accurate picture when it comes to solar.

What’s more significant, though, is that fossil fuels are on a slow but steady decline. Last year, even a major coal company admitted that it’s only a matter of time till we move away from them -- and that this is the right move to make.

The NREL graphic is from page 53 of this:
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/51847.pdf
2010 Solar Technologies Market Report

As is evident from the map, the solar resource in the United States is much higher than in Germany, and the southwestern United States has better resource than southern Spain. Germany’s solar resource has about the same range as Alaska’s, at about 1,000-1,500 kWh/
m2/year, but more of Germany’s resource is at the lower end of that range. Spain’s solar insolation ranges from about 1,300–2,000 kWh/m2/year, which is among the best solar resource in Europe.

 

[AndyH]

Another take on grid storage and load leveling - a Solar Fuel/Audi project in Germany:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOn1FkwPjMA[/youtube]

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/510066/audi-to-make-fuel-using-solar-power/

SolarFuel’s process uses excess renewable energy generated as a result of Germany’s push to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions. There’s now so much renewable energy in Germany that supply sometimes exceeds demand—such as when the wind is blowing late at night. That power could be cheap enough to make methane from water and carbon dioxide, even though the process for doing so is inefficient.