FIRE using LVL 1 - 120 V Trickle Charger
- Thread starter ste4en
- Start date
Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
dex8425
Member
I felt like an idiot when we bought our leaf and I brought it home to our 1950 house, plugged it in to the garage, and it popped the breaker. Tried other outlets, and they all popped the breakers too. I had to wire a dedicated 20A circuit to the garage with a new 20A receptacle to charge the car. This wouldn't be an issue except that we have an unattached garage and it was the middle of winter. I waited until the spring to bury the wire and bring it to code, no problems since and I've found the 120V estimated charging time is way off-ours charges much faster so it must be the 20A instead of the 15A.
Valdemar
Well-known member
Too late now, but you had a chance to bring 240V to the garage at about the same cost, which would allow you to use a L2 EVSE in the future.
What EVSE do you have :? If you have a non-upgraded factory EVSE it should only draw 12, maybe only 11a. Finding a EVSE that will charge at 120v over 12a is quite hard as most seem to be designed for a 15a household outlet and rated at 80% which brings it down to 12a. Even a EVSEupgraded EVSE only puts out a maximum of 16a(80% of a 20a circuit) and only if you have purchased a separate 20a converter cable.dex8425 said:
davewill
Well-known member
I hope you also fixed the problem with those other outlets. You either have bad wiring, a bad breaker, or that circuit is being shared with some high current item you aren't aware of. All bad things to let be.dex8425 said:
keydiver
Well-known member
dex8425 said:
As others have said, the factory EVSE is only capable of drawing 12 amps, no matter what the circuit is rated. The charging times are ALWAYS overestimated, even with 240 volt L2 charging.
TimLee
Well-known member
Correct for many of them.jjeff said:
But they did provide some 25 amp rated later units internationally.
And some in US that got the correct approvals also have them.
JPWhite
Well-known member
TimLee said:
The 'high power' US rated units are 20A @ 208/240v from EVSEupgrade - requires 30A circuit.
Interesting, then that must be what the fellow from Africa has. In another thread he has a photo of the back of his OEM EVSE and it sure looks like a EVSEupgrade unit. Note the photo says 24a, typically 20a @220v and 16a, typically 12a at 120v.TimLee said:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&p=466188#p466182
dex8425
Member
davewill said:
Noticed this now. I tried two circuits/breakers-one in the garage, which only has fuses and didn't work, and one outside outlet, which is the same circuit as our kitchen- so fridge, stove, microwave are all on there.
No issues with the outlet or charging in these last few months. I know the wiring is bad though, having tried to wire an outside light on the same circuit as the kitchen.
I could've put 240 in the garage, but the underground wire for 40A was expensive and I knew we wouldn't need level 2 charging in the garage since my commute is only 8 miles. What took the most time was obviously digging a trench in the backyard to bury the wire, then getting grass to grow again.
Too late for you, but if anyone else does this they should consider 10 gauge 30 amp underground cable, maybe with a 12 gauge 120 volt cable next to it. 90% of the hassle is digging the trench and wiring the circuit(s) to the box. If the circuit you added is dedicated to one outlet, you can still change the connections to make it 240 volts, 20 amps, for a 16 amp L-2 EVSE.
wwhitney
Well-known member
For a detached garage (or other outbuilding), the NEC limits the electrical circuits running to the building to one (possibly multi-wire) branch circuit or one feeder. So running two separate branch circuits, one 240V for an EVSE, and one 120V for general receptacles, would be a violation. Instead, you'd need to run a single feeder, install a subpanel in the garage, and install a grounding electrode system at the garage (e.g. two ground rods sufficiently far apart).LeftieBiker said:
Of course, if the garage in question is attached, and you are just trenching as that is the easiest way to get the circuits there, none of the above applies.
Cheers, Wayne
This is an old thread. .and I confess I haven't read much of it.
Since I am a retired electrician.. and my specialty was old homes, and trouble shooting.. I am going to chime in.
Bad connections.. poorly made splices using wire nuts ( those twisty things) And... poorly made connections at outlets, switches and in ceiling boxes ( lighting)..... can and very often do start fires.
ANY HOUSE.. NEW OR OLD CAN HAVE POORLY MADE SPLICES AND CONNECTIONS.
Many new houses are wired by carpenters who watched a plumber, who watched a laborer, who had a beer with a real electrician
one.. and that is ALL they know about electricity, and the craft of wiring something properly and safely.
All the videos, and DYI crap.. including instruction I have seen on installing L2 EVSE's .. show some CLOWN.. pushing two wires into
a wire nut, giving it a spin and walking away. THIS IS FIRE STARTING 101.. NOTHING LESS !
The proper way is to strip the wires equally, twist the wires together tightly.. ( this is where the real electrical connection is made)
trim the end, and then tightly twist on the wire nut. The physical and electrical integrity has everything to do with the twisting and trimming of the wires.. and nothing to do with the wire nut.. which is merely an insulator.. and adds some insurance the twisted wires stay put.
In the same vein.. many outlets have push in terminations.. and side screws. A good job uses the side screws!
Push in terminations are subject to overheating and damage. Like wise.. cheap outlets are often rated at only 15 amps..
An outlet used for a 120v evse ( or a wall heater.. ) should be a dedicated 20 Amp circuit.. with #12 wire.. and a good quality outlet
hard wired correctly.
Since I am a retired electrician.. and my specialty was old homes, and trouble shooting.. I am going to chime in.
Bad connections.. poorly made splices using wire nuts ( those twisty things) And... poorly made connections at outlets, switches and in ceiling boxes ( lighting)..... can and very often do start fires.
ANY HOUSE.. NEW OR OLD CAN HAVE POORLY MADE SPLICES AND CONNECTIONS.
Many new houses are wired by carpenters who watched a plumber, who watched a laborer, who had a beer with a real electrician
one.. and that is ALL they know about electricity, and the craft of wiring something properly and safely.
All the videos, and DYI crap.. including instruction I have seen on installing L2 EVSE's .. show some CLOWN.. pushing two wires into
a wire nut, giving it a spin and walking away. THIS IS FIRE STARTING 101.. NOTHING LESS !
The proper way is to strip the wires equally, twist the wires together tightly.. ( this is where the real electrical connection is made)
trim the end, and then tightly twist on the wire nut. The physical and electrical integrity has everything to do with the twisting and trimming of the wires.. and nothing to do with the wire nut.. which is merely an insulator.. and adds some insurance the twisted wires stay put.
In the same vein.. many outlets have push in terminations.. and side screws. A good job uses the side screws!
Push in terminations are subject to overheating and damage. Like wise.. cheap outlets are often rated at only 15 amps..
An outlet used for a 120v evse ( or a wall heater.. ) should be a dedicated 20 Amp circuit.. with #12 wire.. and a good quality outlet
hard wired correctly.
There are two conflicting goals here. Using wire nuts without twisting them makes it easier for the wires to separate and end a short circuit that is causing the wires to burn. Many sources will tell you not to twist the wires for this reason. A good twist connection is better for conducting, on the other hand, and with a known-good breaker is probably the way to go. And yes, on the dumbass videos: I saw one segment of This Old House in which their "electrician" installs an EVE using two wire (plus ground) cables, and doesn't label the now-hot white wires as such. Idiot.
wwhitney
Well-known member
I have never heard that, and in fact that is definitely not a goal here. The wire nut needs to maintain a low resistance connection during fault connections, so that the current is high enough that the circuit breaker can trip. Interrupting a fault is the job of the circuit breaker, not the wire nut.LeftieBiker said:
I'm not aware of any wire nut manufacturer that requires you to pre-twist the wires. However, when installing a wire nut on wires that aren't pre-twisted, the proper procedure is to tighten the wire nut sufficiently so that the incoming wires get twisted around each other 1-2 times. So the wires end up twisted either way.LeftieBiker said:
Cheers, Wayne
Valdemar
Well-known member
All of the modern wire-nuts I've seen have a conductive conical spring with sharp edges that bites into the wire conductor and prevents it from slipping also while providing an additional path to current in the splice. If a quality wire-nut is screwed on tight it doesn't seem that pre-twisting makes is significantly safer, unless maybe you're joining more than 3 conductors together.
I'm not talking about higher current applications like a EVSE but in lower current situations I really prefer the wire not be wrapped. Reason being is when working with live voltages I don't like to have to rely on the insulation of my pliers, untwisting the wire and then twisting it back. If the wires are not wrapped all I have to do is unscrew the wire nut and the wires(generally only 2) will separate and allow me to replace whatever is bad, then put the two wires back in the metal lined wire nut and tighten.
I understand the reasoning for first wrapping the wire and again I can see it for higher current applications but for things like lighting ballasts and such, wrapping causes more problems for me than not
Of course it seems like almost all commercial licenced electricians like to first wrap the wire but I wonder if thats more a legacy thing(before wire nuts were metal lined??) than anything else. I rarely work in residential situations so I'm not sure how common wrapping is in that case.
I understand the reasoning for first wrapping the wire and again I can see it for higher current applications but for things like lighting ballasts and such, wrapping causes more problems for me than not
Of course it seems like almost all commercial licenced electricians like to first wrap the wire but I wonder if thats more a legacy thing(before wire nuts were metal lined??) than anything else. I rarely work in residential situations so I'm not sure how common wrapping is in that case.like2bike
Well-known member
I found a way to almost start a fire using L1 charging too. I was at a vacation rental house with wiring that seem a little sketchy for L1 charging. So I was being careful to monitor the outlet for awhile after starting a charge. The outlet seemed fine but the house had a problem that was never discovered until L1 charging was used. The neutral return to the utility pole had a defect. This caused current to be diverted through the cable TV/Internet cable. While charging and using the internet I suddenly lost the internet. I didn't connect the two until the cable guy showed up and found the end of the cable had been damaged by heat. He had to get some more senior cable guys to look at the problem and they explained to me what had happened.
I understand why this defect may only cause a problem with L1 charging. Other high power, continuous loads in a house are 220V which don't use the half-assed neutral connection.
I understand why this defect may only cause a problem with L1 charging. Other high power, continuous loads in a house are 220V which don't use the half-assed neutral connection.
Valdemar
Well-known member
I think open/lousy neutral is bad news EV charging or not. Same could happen if you were just ironing your shirt.
So good and informative discussion overall. Now as a potential leaf buyer, I'm now concerned about burning down my house because I was planning on using the LVL1 as my primary charging method. I don't plan to, and don't want to spend the extra money on installing a LVL2 (which would probably cost $15-20k+ giving that I have no 220V in garage, and the breaker box is on the other side of the house). I'm not sure if I should go ahead and just use the LVL1? Or maybe EV is still just too much work since I should (need) install the LVL2?
Just just read through some more discussion including OP's follow up statement about the need for LVL2. If that's really the case, I think I'm dropping the idea of getting a leaf. From reading this thread, my take away is, most leaf owner are not aware of the potential (or increase possibility) of fire hazard? Seems that most of your recommend against using LVL1 as daily charing method. Maybe this is just too much work.
Just just read through some more discussion including OP's follow up statement about the need for LVL2. If that's really the case, I think I'm dropping the idea of getting a leaf. From reading this thread, my take away is, most leaf owner are not aware of the potential (or increase possibility) of fire hazard? Seems that most of your recommend against using LVL1 as daily charing method. Maybe this is just too much work.
