FIRE using LVL 1 - 120 V Trickle Charger

[JPWhite]

So good and informative discussion overall. Now as a potential leaf buyer, I'm now concerned about burning down my house because I was planning on using the LVL1 as my primary charging method. I don't plan to, and don't want to spend the extra money on installing a LVL2 (which would probably cost $15-20k+ giving that I have no 220V in garage, and the breaker box is on the other side of the house). I'm not sure if I should go ahead and just use the LVL1? Or maybe EV is still just too much work since I should (need) install the LVL2?

Just just read through some more discussion including OP's follow up statement about the need for LVL2. If that's really the case, I think I'm dropping the idea of getting a leaf. From reading this thread, my take away is, most leaf owner are not aware of the potential (or increase possibility) of fire hazard? Seems that most of your recommend against using LVL1 as daily charing method. Maybe this is just too much work.

I would get a quote from an electrician or three before assuming such a high install cost. High install costs are normally due to having to replace the panel due to insufficient capacity , not the length of wire run.

Even if installing level 2 is high cost due to the panel, then get a quote for a dedicated 120v/20A outlet in the garage. If it is newly installed and dedicated it won't pose an additional fire risk over normal.

 

[Mokojojo]

So good and informative discussion overall. Now as a potential leaf buyer, I'm now concerned about burning down my house because I was planning on using the LVL1 as my primary charging method. I don't plan to, and don't want to spend the extra money on installing a LVL2 (which would probably cost $15-20k+ giving that I have no 220V in garage, and the breaker box is on the other side of the house). I'm not sure if I should go ahead and just use the LVL1? Or maybe EV is still just too much work since I should (need) install the LVL2?

Just just read through some more discussion including OP's follow up statement about the need for LVL2. If that's really the case, I think I'm dropping the idea of getting a leaf. From reading this thread, my take away is, most leaf owner are not aware of the potential (or increase possibility) of fire hazard? Seems that most of your recommend against using LVL1 as daily charing method. Maybe this is just too much work.

I would get a quote from an electrician or three before assuming such a high install cost. High install costs are normally due to having to replace the panel due to insufficient capacity , not the length of wire run.

Even if installing level 2 is high cost due to the panel, then get a quote for a dedicated 120v/20A outlet in the garage. If it is newly installed and dedicated it won't pose an additional fire risk over normal.

Thanks I'll maybe look more into that, maybe if I can get a quick quote from an electrician. I was honestly hoping I can just get the car and have some fun with it. As you know just getting the car in itself is already a good amount of work. My current ICE works fine, this was just for novelty (like getting a roadster).

 

[jjeff]

If you have a good 20a 120v circuit in your garage and don't need the speed of L2 I wouldn't be afraid of using L1 exclusively, you just don't want to use it on a already overloaded circuit with inadequate(14 gauge) wiring or worse yet on a flimsy extension cord. The OEM Leaf EVSE draws ~12a which is near the maximum for a 15a circuit, it may work but best to be a 20a circuit and again one with not any other large current draws(heater, toaster, air compressor, etc.) light draws(<1a) like a few lights are OK.

 

[RegGuheert]

I don't plan to, and don't want to spend the extra money on installing a LVL2 (which would probably cost $15-20k+ giving that I have no 220V in garage, and the breaker box is on the other side of the house).

You can get 240VAC to your garage without changing the wire running out there. Simply change the breaker from a single-pole unit to a double-pole unit and you now have 240VAC and twice as much power available in your garage. (Don't do that without removing your 120VAC loads first!)

If the wire that runs to the garage is 14 AWG, that would allow you to charge at 12A and 240VAC. If the wire is 12 AWG, then you can charge up to 16A and 240VAC, which is how I charge my LEAF.

That would just leave the question of how you power lights and any other 120VAC loads which you might have in your garage. For your lights, you could simply replace all lights with 240VAC LED lights. (I don't know if you are required to switch both legs for safety when using 240VAC lighting. Anyone know?) If you also have a garage door opener, you might be able to run that using a smallish transformer.

Perhaps you can create 120VAC in your garage for lighting, opener and outlets using an autotransformer, but I'm not exactly sure how you would create a neutral line out there. Perhaps the NEC allows you to tie neutral to a ground rod near the garage, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

 

[Mokojojo]

I don't plan to, and don't want to spend the extra money on installing a LVL2 (which would probably cost $15-20k+ giving that I have no 220V in garage, and the breaker box is on the other side of the house).

You can get 240VAC to your garage without changing the wire running out there. Simply change the breaker from a single-pole unit to a double-pole unit and you now have 240VAC and twice as much power available in your garage. (Don't do that without removing your 120VAC loads first!)

If the wire that runs to the garage is 14 AWG, that would allow you to charge at 12A and 240VAC. If the wire is 12 AWG, then you can charge up to 16A and 240VAC, which is how I charge my LEAF.

That would just leave the question of how you power lights and any other 120VAC loads which you might have in your garage. For your lights, you could simply replace all lights with 240VAC LED lights. (I don't know if you are required to switch both legs for safety when using 240VAC lighting. Anyone know?) If you also have a garage door opener, you might be able to run that using a smallish transformer.

Perhaps you can create 120VAC in your garage for lighting, opener and outlets using an autotransformer, but I'm not exactly sure how you would create a neutral line out there. Perhaps the NEC allows you to tie neutral to a ground rod near the garage, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

Wow, thanks! This is rather interesting. When you explained like this it all sort of make sense. I'll take your explanation as starting point and go from there. Thanks!

 

[wwhitney]

Some comments based on the NEC:

You can get 240VAC to your garage without changing the wire running out there. Simply change the breaker from a single-pole unit to a double-pole unit and you now have 240VAC and twice as much power available in your garage.

If the garage is fed by a cable wiring method, then you will also need to reidentify the white conductor to a new color (other than white or green) at all boxes. If it is fed by individual conductors inside conduit, then you will need to pull out the white conductor and pull in one that is the correct color, assuming the conductors are #6 or smaller. [Of course, if you could do that, you could just pull in a 2nd ungrounded conductor instead, depending on conduit fill.]

(I don't know if you are required to switch both legs for safety when using 240VAC lighting. Anyone know?)

In general a disconnect is required to break all ungrounded conductors (e.g. the breaker feeding the branch circuit), while a controller is allowed to break only one ungrounded condcutor. I'm not aware of any rules specific to lights or switches that would modify this, but that's not ironclad.

Perhaps you can create 120VAC in your garage for lighting, opener and outlets using an autotransformer, but I'm not exactly sure how you would create a neutral line out there. Perhaps the NEC allows you to tie neutral to a ground rod near the garage, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

Using an autotransformer won't work, as 210.9 requires that when an autotransformer serves a branch circuit, you need an interconnected grounded conductor on both sides of the autotransformer. I.e. you can't use an autotransformer to rederive the grounded conductor, you'd need to run it from the service, which is what we are trying to avoid here.

You could use an isolation transformer from 240V to 120V/240V, although that would make the circuit going to the garage a feeder, rather than a branch circuit. So you'd need to install a grounding electrode system at the garage, and you'd ground the neutral point of the 120V/240V system to that grounding electrode system. (*)

(Edit: (*) That statement assumes a detached garage. If the garage is attached, you'd have to ground the neutral point of the 120V/240V side of the isolation transformer to the closest point of the house grounding electrode system, I think. So the isolation transformer would only help if there is already a point on the house grounding electrode system that is closer than the service; otherwise you have to run a grounding jumper (not the proper technical name) back to the service. At which point you might as well just run a new circuit from the service, instead.)

Cheers, Wayne

 

[RegGuheert]

Some comments based on the NEC:

Thanks for filling in/correcting what I wrote, Wayne!

In general a disconnect is required to break all ungrounded conductors (e.g. the breaker feeding the branch circuit), while a controller is allowed to break only one ungrounded condcutor. I'm not aware of any rules specific to lights or switches that would modify this, but that's not ironclad.

Well, there ARE double-pole light switches available that can serve this purpose.

(Edit: (*) That statement assumes a detached garage. If the garage is attached, you'd have to ground the neutral point of the 120V/240V side of the isolation transformer to the closest point of the house grounding electrode system, I think. So the isolation transformer would only help if there is already a point on the house grounding electrode system that is closer than the service; otherwise you have to run a grounding jumper (not the proper technical name) back to the service. At which point you might as well just run a new circuit from the service, instead.)

Yes, I started to wonder if the garage was detached after I had posted. What say you, Mokojojo?

 

[wwhitney]

Well, there ARE double-pole light switches available that can serve this purpose.

Yes, if concerned, just use a double pole switch (a 15 or 20 amp version would be cheaper). But I don't believe it is required, although I may have missed something in the NEC.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[RegGuheert]

Well, there ARE double-pole light switches available that can serve this purpose.

Yes, if concerned, just use a double pole switch (a 15 or 20 amp version would be cheaper). But I don't believe it is required, although I may have missed something in the NEC.

No, I'm sure you are correct. My house used to have a 25A SP switch on the power to the water heater, so it must be allowed. I guess I'm not a fan of that approach because it's not uncommon (even if not smart) to work on lighting after switching off the switch and not the breaker. Also, I had strange things happen when a builder painted all the wires white and then cross-wired a light fixture. The result was the neutral was being switched instead of the hot. Then the neutral eventually got shorted to ground at the light and the light could not be switched off. I was NOT impressed! I guess I'd just prefer that neither hot make it to the fixture unswitched.

 

[Mokojojo]

Some comments based on the NEC:

Thanks for filling in/correcting what I wrote, Wayne!

In general a disconnect is required to break all ungrounded conductors (e.g. the breaker feeding the branch circuit), while a controller is allowed to break only one ungrounded condcutor. I'm not aware of any rules specific to lights or switches that would modify this, but that's not ironclad.

Well, there ARE double-pole light switches available that can serve this purpose.

(Edit: (*) That statement assumes a detached garage. If the garage is attached, you'd have to ground the neutral point of the 120V/240V side of the isolation transformer to the closest point of the house grounding electrode system, I think. So the isolation transformer would only help if there is already a point on the house grounding electrode system that is closer than the service; otherwise you have to run a grounding jumper (not the proper technical name) back to the service. At which point you might as well just run a new circuit from the service, instead.)

Yes, I started to wonder if the garage was detached after I had posted. What say you, Mokojojo?

Thanks and sorry for the slow reply, still trying to understanding all the discussion. No my garage is attached, just a regular house.

 

[wwhitney]

the extra money on installing a LVL2 (which would probably cost $15-20k+ giving that I have no 220V in garage, and the breaker box is on the other side of the house).

I think you're off by an order of magnitude--unless you need a service upgrade, then a new circuit to the garage should be in the $500 to $2,000 range, depending on the complexity of getting the wires to the other side of the house.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[sub3marathonman]

Just just read through some more discussion including OP's follow up statement about the need for LVL2. If that's really the case, I think I'm dropping the idea of getting a leaf. From reading this thread, my take away is, most leaf owner are not aware of the potential (or increase possibility) of fire hazard? Seems that most of your recommend against using LVL1 as daily charing method. Maybe this is just too much work.

Dropping the idea of getting a LEAF would be disappointing in my opinion. As a novice, and everybody was once a novice, it is understandable to be concerned, but statistically the odds of a fire from L1 charging are extremely low, although not 0. The odds of a fire in an ICE vehicle are low too, but not 0, and I can say I've seen several ICE vehicles either burning or the results of a fire. In the L1 situation too, there is no telling what state of repair or disrepair the wiring was in, if it was 1 year or 120 years old. In this situation the OP stated the wiring was relatively new, at 13 years. In general though, the newer versions of the NEC, which have done further research on EVs and PV solar too, if followed, along with good workmanship by the electrician, will make L1 charging as safe as humanly possible.

As far as requiring L2 charging, I would say it is not essential, there are many people on this forum who have only L1 and get along fine. It all depends on a person's individual circumstance. I had only L1 charging for a long time when I first got the LEAF, nothing disastrous happened, the L1 charger worked fine. When I had the house built I preplanned for an EV, so the garage was already wired for 240V and 50 amps, so installing the L2 was really only the expense for the GE Wattstation, which I like despite others speaking negatively about it, and back then they were about $1k, now they're probably $500 or so. In my opinion, the GE Wattstation got a bad reputation because of Nissan, but others feel differently, and they purchased something else, which is fine too. Even more than convenience, I ended up wanting the L2 because it is much more efficient than the L1, and over thousands of kwh, it adds up to a significant amount, which I would rather spend towards the L2. Greater efficiency of course also results in less pollution from any extra electricity I get from the electric company.

I just wouldn't make an individual decision strictly from any impression, good or bad, from a forum. Not to diminish the value of the forum or those who contribute positively to it, even when their story is a warning or something that has gone wrong with the LEAF. If it wasn't for those on the forum, and the pressure they put on Nissan, I don't think there ever would have been a 5 yr / 60K mile battery warranty put in effect by the Klee settlement.

I think the LEAF is a spectacular car, and over the long-term will prove to be a prudent economical choice, and I hope others who will choose the LEAF also have a great experience.

 

[gene]

^^^^^^^ @sub3, very well said. I agree heartily.

 

[powersurge]

I don't understand the concern for a fire... If the L1 charger is plugged into the outlet directly (without other draws), there is no problem... Like having a microwave.. If the circuit cant handle it, then the breaker would stop. The reason for the 240v is to make it MUCH MORE usable. Only people that do not go far or often should have the L1.

 

[Marktm]

Trip to my Son's home is across Houston, TX - approx 65 miles. Forgot my Level 2 charger and ended up using the Leaf's level 1. Plugged in upon arrival at ~3:30 to 4:00 PM(?) and kept on charge until we had to leave the next morning around 8:30 AM. It was still flashing third light! Mostly freeway driving, so I barely made it home on VLB (with a brand new battery!!). Will not ever forget the OpenEVSE charger again!

 

[Marktm]

Forgot to mention that my Son's house is 30+ years old. There were no signs of any excessive heat at the outlet, but if I had read this thread before the trip, I would have taken the outlet cover off and checked with his heat gun. The only "check" I made was the plug/cord - slightly warm. Would feel really guilty had I caused any problems!

 

[RegGuheert]

I don't understand the concern for a fire... If the L1 charger is plugged into the outlet directly (without other draws), there is no problem... Like having a microwave.

You might want to read the OP for this thread to better understand. Simply put, many standard 15A outlets will overheat when subjected to a 12A continuous load. It is true that they pass testing to ensure this is not the case WHEN NEW, but the fact is that standard outlets often get very frequent use and the contacts get degraded due to the many plug/unplug cycles that they experience. If you wander around just about any airport and try to find a plug that works properly you will find out how bad these things become with use. On top of this, many builders and homeowners install the lowest-grade outlets available which will not hold up even under fairly light use. They also often use the stab terminals in the back of the outlets instead of securing the wires under the provided screw.

Finally, there is the issue that arises because standard 15A outlets do not have have a locking mechanism. When combined with the short cord provided on EVSEs, you have a situation in which the plug can become poorly engaged with the socket, resulting in high resistance and excessive heating.

As such, I highly recommend that anyone who plans to charge their LEAF from a new-to-the-EVSE 120VAC socket do at least one of two things:
1) Monitor the temperature of the plug while charging to ensure that it does not get overly hot
2) Inspect the outlet to ensure that the wires are secured under the screw terminals and that the contacts hold onto the plug very securely when engaged. If not, purchase a new, heavy-duty outlet and install it properly before charging.

Not doing so is a form of Russian roulette with your home.

If the circuit cant handle it, then the breaker would stop.

This is a non sequitur argument. Most breakers will not trip below 20A but 12A is plenty of current to start a fire if the resistance is high enough.

 

[Valdemar]

And who knows how many of the backstabbed receptacles are there in between the one your EVSE is plugged in intro and electrical panel. There's also aluminum wiring...