Electrician says an L2 EVSE install is not possible! :(

[LeftieBiker]

FORGET ABOUT USING A Quick220. If the place was built to Code, then the garage (and outdoor) receptacles are protected by GFCI (could be receptacle in bathroom or GFCI breaker in panelboard) which will trip immediately when attempt is made to use Quick220.

It's also just a Bad Idea. As I wrote when this product came out, I don't trust someone who builds a device that runs on dangerous house current but doesn't know that the standard voltage for it has been 240 (or 208) volts since before the turn of the century. Also, using two older circuits doubles the risk of the circuit not being up to the task.

 

[Oilpan4]

If the place is wired to code then the romex wire would attached to studs with large wire staples that are hammered down.

Is that something that can be pulled to replace smaller Ampacity wires with wires of higher ampacity ?

During a recent remodel I remember the electrician passing wires through holes he drilled into the studs. Perhaps you are talking about staples at termination points ?

If new wire can be pulled in its possible.
The main problems with pulling new romex are the termination staples, 90 degree bends and inaccessible areas.
If I am not opening up walls I just run additional circuits.

 

[Spacep0d]

Please fix that, Alozzy. It' dangerous misinformation.

I think my one hope right now is a DCC power switcher thing, which will cut off power to the EVSE if amp load is too high for the home, where it then resumes if there's enough capacity. See, at 3a it's not like I will be doing laundry, running the dishwasher, vacuuming, etc. So, should have enough capacity when I need it. I know code doesn't work like that but I'll see about getting a DCC which some members here told me about;

https://dcc.technology/condos/

The problem is that my garage is not next to the outside meter. >< Ugh. Everywhere I turn, I find a roadblock.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I think my one hope right now is a DCC power switcher thing,

I suggest you still look into my recommendation that you have an electrician convert one of your existing garage 15 amp 120 volt circuits to 240 volt 15 amp. That would likely cost less than $300 and would double your charging speed. The Zencar (?) L-2 charging station is also only about $300 and can be set for the necessary 12 amps.

 

[SageBrush]

I think my one hope right now is a DCC power switcher thing,

I suggest you still look into my recommendation that you have an electrician convert one of your existing garage 15 amp 120 volt circuits to 240 volt 15 amp. That would likely cost less than $300 and would double your charging speed.

Is anything required other than space in the panel and a new outlet ?

 

[stjohnh]

FORGET ABOUT USING A Quick220. If the place was built to Code, then the garage (and outdoor) receptacles are protected by GFCI (could be receptacle in bathroom or GFCI breaker in panelboard) which will trip immediately when attempt is made to use Quick220.

It's also just a Bad Idea. As I wrote when this product came out, I don't trust someone who builds a device that runs on dangerous house current but doesn't know that the standard voltage for it has been 240 (or 208) volts since before the turn of the century. Also, using two older circuits doubles the risk of the circuit not being up to the task.

Actually OP said unit was built in 1990, so unless there was some upgrade, few, if any outlets probably have GFCI units.

This tester, currently $6.74 on amazon can used to check for sure which outlets have GFCI if the OP wants to be sure before ordering a Quick-220. https://www.amazon.com/Sperry-Instr...490&s=hi&sprefix=gfci+tester,tools,299&sr=1-4

I'm not sure about the "bad idea" comment. Seems to me the load is about the same as plugging two space heaters into different circuits. Yes, tripping over an extension cord is a bad idea, but unlikely to cause an electrical problem.

 

[SageBrush]

Yes, tripping over an extension cord is a bad idea, but unlikely to cause an electrical problem.

I would take steps to mitigate this risk since high Amps are flowing. I suggest installing the twist lock outlets.

 

[SageBrush]

OP: the problem with the DCC option is that it has to be approved by your local code or the electrician cannot take it into account for the load calculation. No electrician that values their license is going to flaunt local code, not to mention the assumption of liability if damage/fire occurs.

The DCC is a FINE idea ... but you are constrained by local code.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I think my one hope right now is a DCC power switcher thing,

I suggest you still look into my recommendation that you have an electrician convert one of your existing garage 15 amp 120 volt circuits to 240 volt 15 amp. That would likely cost less than $300 and would double your charging speed.

Is anything required other than space in the panel and a new outlet ?

A 15 amp 240 volt breaker (to which both the Hot and 'formerly-Neutral' wires from the circuit being converted are connected. The old "Neutral" is then Hot (or "white circuit conductor") as well and must be marked with red tape at both ends) Also, blank covers for any other outlets being removed from the converted circuit. The covers should also be labeled for the new voltage and amperage. That's it. The EVSE should either be hardwired to the converted outlet box, or a NEMA 6 or L6 plug should be installed for it, labeled "240 volt 15 amp."

 

[wwhitney]

A 15 amp 240 volt breaker (to which both the Hot and Neutral wires from the circuit being converted are connected. The Neutral is then Hot as well and must be marked with red tape at both ends)

This part would be clearer if you referred to the "white circuit conductor" rather than the "Neutral", since as you note it is not a neutral in the new configuration.

A 20 amp breaker could probably be used, as long as the EVSE is 12 amp, if 15 amp can't be found.

A 20 amp breaker can be used if the circuit conductors throughout are #12 copper. Any #14 copper in the circuit, and you are restricted to 15 amps.

The EVSE should either be hardwired to the converted outlet box, or a dryer plug should be installed for it, labeled "240 volt 15 amp."

Negative on the dryer receptacle. With no neutral circuit conductor present, you can't use a receptacle that requires a neutral. The proper receptacle to use is a NEMA 6 series (or L6 series).

Cheers, Wayne

 

[LeftieBiker]

Thanks - I'll correct it. Can you find a 240 volt 15 amp breaker?

 

[wwhitney]

Thanks - I'll correct it. Can you find a 240 volt 15 amp breaker?

Sure, they exist. I would expect every manufacturer to have one.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[SageBrush]

Is anything required other than space in the panel and a new outlet ?

A 15 amp 240 volt breaker (to which both the Hot and 'formerly-Neutral' wires from the circuit being converted are connected. The old "Neutral" is then Hot (or "white circuit conductor") as well and must be marked with red tape at both ends) Also, blank covers for any other outlets being removed from the converted circuit. The covers should also be labeled for the new voltage and amperage. That's it. The EVSE should either be hardwired to the converted outlet box, or a NEMA 6 or L6 plug should be installed for it, labeled "240 volt 15 amp."

Outstanding recommendation. Should end up being ~ 2.5 kW to the battery instead of 1.1 kW, so charge time is reduced by ~ 55%. This sounds like a $20 DIY

What are the dimensions of the new breaker compared to the one in place ?

 

[jjeff]

Is anything required other than space in the panel and a new outlet ?

What are the dimensions of the new breaker compared to the one in place ?

Depends......some panels have 240v breakers that are the same size as a full sized breaker but if you've got 1/2 sized 120v breakers it will be twice the size as those. Then there are panels like a square D I added a 240v breaker for a friends EV. Those only came in double sized(4x the size of what some panels use for 120v) and of course his panel was maxed out. In this case I had to get full sized breakers that had 2 individual flippers, I replaced several of his full sized breakers with these double 120v breakers just so I'd have room for the double 240v breaker. In the end it ended up being somewhat involved as the flippers on the dual 120v breakers are the same phase so you've got to take that into account.
Overall what sounded like an easy $20 project ended up costing over $100 and again took some figuring and wasn't really an easy DIY project

 

[SageBrush]

What are the dimensions of the new breaker compared to the one in place ?

Depends......some panels have 240v breakers that are the same size as a full sized breaker but if you've got 1/2 sized 120v breakers it will be twice the size as those. Then there are panels like a square D I added a 240v breaker for a friends EV. Those only came in double sized(4x the size of what some panels use for 120v) and of course his panel was maxed out. In this case I had to get full sized breakers that had 2 individual flippers, I replaced several of his full sized breakers with these double 120v breakers just so I'd have room for the double 240v breaker. In the end it ended up being somewhat involved as the flippers on the dual 120v breakers are the same phase so you've got to take that into account.
Overall what sounded like an easy $20 project ended up costing over $100 and again took some figuring and wasn't really an easy DIY project

Thanks jjeff, quite informative.
OP, Jeff's point is that you have to match the breaker to the panel and its manufacturer.

 

[Oilpan4]

What are the dimensions of the new breaker compared to the one in place ?

Depends......some panels have 240v breakers that are the same size as a full sized breaker but if you've got 1/2 sized 120v breakers it will be twice the size as those. Then there are panels like a square D I added a 240v breaker for a friends EV. Those only came in double sized(4x the size of what some panels use for 120v) and of course his panel was maxed out. In this case I had to get full sized breakers that had 2 individual flippers, I replaced several of his full sized breakers with these double 120v breakers just so I'd have room for the double 240v breaker. In the end it ended up being somewhat involved as the flippers on the dual 120v breakers are the same phase so you've got to take that into account.
Overall what sounded like an easy $20 project ended up costing over $100 and again took some figuring and wasn't really an easy DIY project

You can still over load a panel by doing this.
Most panels are for example 8 space 8 circuit or 12 space 12 circuit or 20 space 20 circuit and so on.
I always install over sized, outdoor, over built panels. When I installed a sub panel for my garage power expansion I bought a panel listed for 12 spaces but will allow for 24 circuits that way it will be almost impossible to ever over load it. After installing my expanded garage power I only put 3 circuits in there.
The more circuits thsn spaces panels are also made to handle more amps.

 

[Oilpan4]

Thanks - I'll correct it. Can you find a 240 volt 15 amp breaker?

Sure, they exist. I would expect every manufacturer to have one.

Cheers, Wayne

I can get 15 amp tandem breakers for everything I use.
Unless it's dreadfully obsolete you shouldn't have any problem find the breaker.

 

[alozzy]

Time to take a break from this forum, I'm tired of having to explain my comments to certain know-it-alls who presume too much. Obviously, I wasn't suggesting putting in 20A breakers, if the existing wiring couldn't handle the current draw - I'm not a moron and I'm sure the OP isn't either.

However, I'm not an electrician, so I didn't realize that newer builds require GFCI on all branch circuits now, making the Quick220 an obsolete device. Thanks, GerryAZ (who is an electrician), for explaining that, much appreciated.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Time to take a break from this forum, I'm tired of having to explain my comments to certain know-it-alls who presume too much. Obviously, I wasn't suggesting putting in 20A breakers, if the existing wiring couldn't handle the current draw - I'm not a moron and I'm sure the OP isn't either.

However, I'm not an electrician, so I didn't realize that newer builds require GFCI on all branch circuits now, making the Quick220 an obsolete device. Thanks, GerryAZ (who is an electrician), for explaining that, much appreciated.

I believe you when you say that you know better, but that isn't the point. It isn't what you know in forums like this, it's what you actually write, and what you wrote about possibly having to replace 15 amp breakers with 20 amp breakers (on a 15 amp circuit) that was wrong and dangerous. As someone who makes quite a few mistakes posting, I empathize with feeling the "pile on." Still, the easiest way is to just write "oops" and correct the mistake. Hopefully you'll be back shortly.

 

[GerryAZ]

However, I'm not an electrician, so I didn't realize that newer builds require GFCI on all branch circuits now, making the Quick220 an obsolete device. Thanks, GerryAZ (who is an electrician), for explaining that, much appreciated.

I won't claim to be an Electrician--just an Electrical Engineer. I don't know the Code requirements for the OP location, but many jurisdictions in the USA refer to the NEC which has required GFCI (ground fault) protection for residential garage and outdoor 120-volt receptacles going back at least to the 1987 version. The latest NEC requires AFCI (arc fault) protection for many interior receptacles--I have no idea how AFCI circuit breakers would react to a Quick220, but they monitor both line and neutral conductors and some also include GFCI protection. Therefore, as I posted before, FORGET ABOUT Quick220.

NEMA 6-15 or 6-20 straight-blade receptacles which are often used for room air conditioners (15 or 20 amperes, depending upon existing wire size) would be appropriate if an existing 120-volt circuit is converted to 240 or 208 volts.