"Electric vehicles only" and the Prius

[TomT]

I wish there was a left lane law in every state in the union! The majority of U.S. drivers are pure crap in most regards and are very poorly trained and licensed... Drive the Autobahn to see how it SHOULD be done...

Yes it does. It is common law in this area. I have seen people pulled over for it, and know of a couple that have been pulled over for it. If you are blocking the "normal flow" of traffic, you are impeding even if it is higher than the speedlimit. Get over and let people pass.

 

[MikeinDenver]

I wish there was a left lane law in every state in the union! The majority of U.S. drivers are pure crap in most regards and are very poorly trained and licensed... Drive the Autobahn see how it SHOULD be done...

Yes it does. It is common law in this area. I have seen people pulled over for it, and know of a couple that have been pulled over for it. If you are blocking the "normal flow" of traffic, you are impeding even if it is higher than the speedlimit. Get over and let people pass.

We do not seem to agree on a lot of things on here but in this we are 100%. I honestly don't know why cops don't enforce it more here. It would be a ticket writing bonanza and what officer doesn't want that. Hell if they would give me the car(would prefer a bike) and equipment I would go out and do it for free in my spare time!

 

[asimba2]

I would love to see the lane issue enforced. Even with the HOV stickers, I rarely use the lane because it travels at much higher speeds than I like to drive. But it doesn't keep this one guy in his plug-in Prius from moving over the HOV lane as fast as he can so he drive at exactly 61 mph (because it switches to gas above that), when everyone else is doing 75+ mph. The only satisfaction I get is watching nearly every driver behind him honk, flash lights, only to pass him and cut him off.

 

[smkettner]

Driving 40 mph in the left lane would certainly invite a citation.
Left Lane was not described as the issue in the original example, just the 40 mph speed.

 

[donald]

Seeing more and more of this:

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the Plug in Prius as "an electric vehicle."

I realise that in part you are drilling into what an electric car actually is, but I'd just like to point out, and sorry if it offends your sense of right-and-wrong, but it is ironic that you actually appear to be using an example where the charging spot actually appears to be far more suited to a PHEV than a Leaf.

Just bear with my explanation and maybe you can have a re-think, because I feel you've lost some perspective on this.

OK, so looking at the shops in the background this looks like some fairly ordinary suburban shopping centre. The sort of place you'd pop out to on a Saturday, or on the way back from work, for some very mundane necessities or a piece of clothing or two, or a bit of chinz to drape over an old chair. You might visit this location or any other convenient site nearby that has likewise products. Basically, the sort of location you pick for the convenience of its proximity rather than the particular wares on offer. It doesn't look like the sort of place you'd choose to drive 40 miles to just for a shop.

Now the whole point of electric cars isn't that you can run them as cheaply as possible and get all huffy and snobby about anyone else who hasn't got one, the idea is that you reduce reliance on using fossil fuels and therefore slow down the consumption of those precious commodities. Some folks also have some concerns about the emissions of CO2 and other naturally occurring planetary gases and think EVs are a Good Thing in this regard.

Anyhow, one way or the other, the point of an electric car isn't simply so the owners can go around free-loading off free charge points.

Now, if you visited this same spot in your Leaf, what possible reason would you have for wanting to charge? If you were dumb enough to leave your house for a 10 mile round trip for a Saturday shop and left your house with one bar thinking 'hey, I can get some free juice on that charge point' then you get everything you deserve if you find it taken up by a PiP. If you leave slightly under fully charged and think 'hey, I can get on that cushy parking spot next to the shop I want and charge up, even though I can make it home and don't need to charge up' then you're just blocking a PiP's space for no damned good reason.

Why is it a PiP's space? Because a PiP has been designed for that quick 10 mile trip to the shops in mind. Yeah, OK, maybe you've got a point that this isn't a particularly good design, but by blocking that space with your totally unnecessary charging habit, you're preventing that guy from using his PiP to its full electrical potential and you're causing him to burn up that dinosaur-blood stuff, when what you could do is just plan your journey better because you've got a 80 mile EV to do a 10 mile journey!

Besides, it is a 2 hr parking space and doesn't appear to be a rapid charge. So we're talking a ~5kWh charge up or so. That'd make very little difference to your Leaf if you leave home reasonably prepared and charged for the expected journey ahead, but it makes the whole world of difference for a PiP because that's its whole range!

If you are struggling to figure out when the best time to charge up your Leaf on a quick run to the local shops and need to charge up when you've got there, then you're really too dumb to have one. Leaf needs planning so you don't run out of juice, and if you find yourself needing a topup charge on a 10 mile run then you're really pretty rubbish at planning your route.

So, stop trying to bung that space up with your 80 mile EV, and instead let a 10 mile range PHEV use it so you can both end up driving there and back on the sparky-stuff.

 

[asimba2]

1. That picture was a random one I pulled off the internet.
2. Rarely do I ever use public charging. It does bug me to drive past my local Level 2 and see a PiP sitting there for 9 hours every single day. It's not the car's fault, it's the driver's.
3. I'm all for any car running on electricity. The intent of this thread was to learn whether or not a PiP meets the legal definition of an electric vehicle. The PiP was the easiest pick since its electric range is extremely low.

 

[donald]

1. OK, fair enough, but each case is likely to be difference, so maybe generalisations don't help, the stock photo you picked showing just that risk of generalising.

2. A PiP routinely bunging a spot for 9 hrs is an example. I totally agree with you. A 2hr max charge point is, if you like, a 'PiP' point because it shouldn't really help a Leaf driver that much unless they've caught themselves out at the end of a long journey and just need a 'squirt'. But a charger where you can sit for 8 hours for a charge, clearly the PiP is bunging up a facility which it might better find elsewhere. Detail means everything here.

3. Yes, I did mention I appreciated your 'drill down' into a definition. But I think the perspective risks getting get lost if we forget why electric cars are 'electric'. It's to avoid burning the sticky stuff and use the sparky stuff. As far as I care, if a charge point serves anyone that they get to use substantially more of the sparky stuff, then that's what it is there for, so a PiP can certainly use it for its defined purpose.

 

[donald]

Just came across this....

I guess Oslo authorities are on the OP's side - EVs and PHEVs are not equal in Norway!!!....

Oslo Municipality regarding parking and charging Plug in hybrids:

Normally, Plug in hybrids may only park at locations with signs for «Rechargeable motor vehicle»; however, until all location have been given new signs, the can also park at locations for an «Electric motor vehicle» Plug-in Hybrids my charge at all locations if our traffic officers can see that your are driving a Plug-in Hybrid vehicle. Plug-in Hybrids do not have the statutory right not to pay a parking fee that Electric vehicles and Hydrogen vehicles have. Plug-in Hybrids must pay a parking fee at all paid municipal parking spots. Always look at the sign at charging stations. If it says «Plug-in Hybrid for a fee» on the sign, you must pay at the nearest parking meter. If there is no sign, you can park and charge your vehicle at no charge.
At all time-limited charging stations, Electric vehicles and Plug-in Hybrids must have a parking disc and adhere to the maximum time for the location. Set the time you arrive at the parking space on the parking disc”
Source: Oslo Municipality/City Environmental Agency June 2013

 

[dgpcolorado]

Yes it does. It is common law in this area. I have seen people pulled over for it, and know of a couple that have been pulled over for it. If you are blocking the "normal flow" of traffic, you are impeding even if it is higher than the speedlimit. Get over and let people pass...

WRT Colorado's left lane law, I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how it works. The law isn't intended to require speeding in the left lane under some circumstances. Rather, it requires all traffic to travel in right lane on multi-lane highways with speed limits of 65-75 mph except when passing slower traffic or when conditions are congested and require use of all lanes. Congested roads aside, NO traffic is allowed in the left lane unless actually passing traffic in the right lane.

Perhaps it is a bit subtle, but hat's a very different thing from suggesting that speeding in the left lane is required by the left lane law if traffic is generally exceeding the speed limit. Not so.

 

[2k1Toaster]

Yes it does. It is common law in this area. I have seen people pulled over for it, and know of a couple that have been pulled over for it. If you are blocking the "normal flow" of traffic, you are impeding even if it is higher than the speedlimit. Get over and let people pass...

WRT Colorado's left lane law, I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how it works. The law isn't intended to require speeding in the left lane under some circumstances. Rather, it requires all traffic to travel in right lane on multi-lane highways with speed limits of 65-75 mph except when passing slower traffic or when conditions are congested and require use of all lanes. Congested roads aside, NO traffic is allowed in the left lane unless actually passing traffic in the right lane.

Perhaps it is a bit subtle, but hat's a very different thing from suggesting that speeding in the left lane is required by the left lane law if traffic is generally exceeding the speed limit. Not so.

Never said speeding was required. But if the majority of traffic is speeding, and you are in the left lane, you better keep up with the speeders or pull over to the right, or you will be pulled over with the flashy lights.

 

[alanlarson]

Yes it does. It is common law in this area. I have seen people pulled over for it, and know of a couple that have been pulled over for it. If you are blocking the "normal flow" of traffic, you are impeding even if it is higher than the speedlimit. Get over and let people pass...

WRT Colorado's left lane law, I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how it works. The law isn't intended to require speeding in the left lane under some circumstances. Rather, it requires all traffic to travel in right lane on multi-lane highways with speed limits of 65-75 mph except when passing slower traffic or when conditions are congested and require use of all lanes. Congested roads aside, NO traffic is allowed in the left lane unless actually passing traffic in the right lane.

Perhaps it is a bit subtle, but hat's a very different thing from suggesting that speeding in the left lane is required by the left lane law if traffic is generally exceeding the speed limit. Not so.

Never said speeding was required. But if the majority of traffic is speeding, and you are in the left lane, you better keep up with the speeders or pull over to the right, or you will be pulled over with the flashy lights.

So, if the left lane is doing 75 - 80 in a 65 mph area, and the right lane is doing 55 - 60, you have to switch lanes back and forth to drive at the speed limit.

Something wrong with that law.

Alan

 

[2k1Toaster]

So, if the left lane is doing 75 - 80 in a 65 mph area, and the right lane is doing 55 - 60, you have to switch lanes back and forth to drive at the speed limit.

Something wrong with that law.

Alan

Correct, and nothing wrong with the law. Left lane is passing only. Even when I am travelling down the main road at 80mph in the Prius I am in the right lane until I need to pass. Just as people are passing me in the left lane. 1 rolling road block can cause serious disruptions in traffic flow and most of our roads here have no alternate routes. It's not a maze of roads like on the coasts, it is a network of point to point roads with very little overlap in coverage until you get to the cities.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I've never seen this argument, oddly enough, from someone who doesn't speed regularly. The law may be well-intended, but it is rare when conditions actually allow all traffic to be in the right lane, and having a mix of speeds there is dangerous, especially when there are ramps, as there usually are. The rule of thumb (no, not of law, but of reason) that I follow is: speeders and those passing slow traffic in the left lane, traffic going at or near the speed limit in the center lane (or right lane if no center lane), and slower traffic, including those slowing and speeding up for ramps, in the right lane. You can argue all you want about the law, but this is the safest configuration. Cops just dislike it because they have to make more decisions and traffic stops.

 

[TomT]

As on the autobahn, the left lane should be for passing only unless traffic is heavily congested. Period.

 

[MikeinDenver]

Never said speeding was required. But if the majority of traffic is speeding, and you are in the left lane, you better keep up with the speeders or pull over to the right, or you will be pulled over with the flashy lights.

So, if the left lane is doing 75 - 80 in a 65 mph area, and the right lane is doing 55 - 60, you have to switch lanes back and forth to drive at the speed limit.

Something wrong with that law.

Alan

Nothing is wrong with the law, but something is amiss if you think that is stupid.

 

[apvbguy]

So, if the left lane is doing 75 - 80 in a 65 mph area, and the right lane is doing 55 - 60, you have to switch lanes back and forth to drive at the speed limit.

Something wrong with that law.

Alan

what part of keep right pass left is giving you trouble?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

we complaining that there are too many cars with plugs??

maybe we should be complaining there is not enough of say "something" else?

 

[asimba2]

we complaining that there are too many cars with plugs??

maybe we should be complaining there is not enough of say "something" else?

Someone keeps putting words in my mouth, but I don't have time to sit around and argue online. No where in this thread will you read me saying that plug-ins should not be allowed to charge. My point was, the legal terminology used to describe an electric vehicle seems, in my opinion, to not include cars like the Prius plug in. The more electric miles, the better.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Your very first post strongly implies that you resent the PIP being allowed to charge in public charging locations. Phrases like "Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the Plug in Prius as "an electric vehicle." certainly give that impression. If you're just Wound Up over the terminology that makes little sense, because it's being interpreted liberally.

 

[minispeed]

Since he plugged in as soon as he goes he'll be driving an electric vehicle, if he didn't park there he may not. Maybe that's not good enough for your definition but it's good enough for mine. Every jurisdiction will be different but generally I've heard that any parking restriction other than a handicap spot does not have any legal backing to it other than the property owner basically saying "these are the rules I expect you to follow, if you don't then please leave, if you don't leave you're trespassing." Similar to pregnant or families with young children spots. Would you be offended if a nanny with a young child parked in that spot? Maybe that child is 4 and s\he just has 1 and after all a nanny isn't family.... but you pull up in your car with 3 kids, 1, 2.5 and 4 years old, do you have more right to that spot than the nanny?

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't mind an imiev parking there? The PiP has probably done more to support electric public charging than that car. With almost any charging spot someone is going to punch the numbers to see if it's worth it, these bean counters probably don't know or care about the difference between BEV and PHEV so sales of both get us more public charging, also in the long run occupied spots can make those same bean counters choose to install more chargers. In the end this benefits us more than it benefits them. The choice of wording was probably chossen by someone without knowledge, if they had said "BEV, PHEV parking only" that might alleviate your concern but most people would have no clue what it means. If they said "electric and plug in hybrid parking only" it probably wouldn't fit and if they said "plug in vehicle parking only" anyone with a block heater could argue a right to use it.

After all it probably only bothers you because you know you or a driver like you may need a spot and they don't. So basically you're saying they should burn gas instead, anyone could use that same logic to say that there should be no public support for plug ins since you could have bought a gas car instead.