"Electric vehicles only" and the Prius

[2k1Toaster]

While in your case, disliking that driver of that car is reasonable. Disliking an entire brand because of one person, seems unreasonable. But you are free to hate whom you wish.

I do not dislike the car, it's better than a pure ICE. I'm just posing the question, "is a PiP an electric vehicle." I think no.

Ok well in that case, I would argue it is. It just has limitations.

MG2 is what actually drives the wheels. The engine is never "clutched" to the wheels like a volt. When the engine has to spin, all it does is counter-rotate and charge up the battery with MG1 while MG2 sucks down that juice and propels the car forwards. At any speed including 80mph the Prius can be electric only. The gas engine spins but without fuel. The time it can do that is short lived by battery charge and wind resistance, terrain, etc all change how from from "very limited" to "barely anything", but it is possible.

The 62mph speed limit imposed on EV driving in the PiP is just because above that, MG1 spins too fast to counter the engine not spinning and keep MG2 spinning fast enough for 63mph. So it needs to start spinning the engine (even at 1400rpm without gas) to go faster. But if you are going to start spinning the engine it should be lubricated, so it starts up and warms itself up and freshens itself up. Pretty simple system. Around town, I have no need for going over 62mph in electric. My gas guzzling non-PiP Prius can never achieve 60+ mph on surface streets here except in the middle of the night when it is just you, the empty roads, and lurking cops waiting to pull you over on 45mph roads.

 

[smkettner]

Idiots are in all cars. There is a guy on the Prius forums who got ticketed for 40mph on a California freeway and was angry that it happened and didn't understand why. The posted speed limit was 65mph, traffic flowing well above that, and he was putzing along at 40mph. Likewise I take my Prius for the long range trips and triple digit speeds in the left lane driving packs are very common. Another, but different, form of stupid driving.

I believe the general minimum speed on an interstate is 45 mph. So just a basic infraction same as going 70 mph.
Makes no difference what the vehicle was.

 

[2k1Toaster]

Idiots are in all cars. There is a guy on the Prius forums who got ticketed for 40mph on a California freeway and was angry that it happened and didn't understand why. The posted speed limit was 65mph, traffic flowing well above that, and he was putzing along at 40mph. Likewise I take my Prius for the long range trips and triple digit speeds in the left lane driving packs are very common. Another, but different, form of stupid driving.

I believe the general minimum speed on an interstate is 45 mph. So just a basic infraction same as going 70 mph.
Makes no difference what the vehicle was.

It was 40mph at that section, with a posted sign. Speeding is a different infraction from impeding the flow of traffic. In Colorado you can get a ticket for impeding the flow of traffic even if you are going at or above the speed limit. If you are impeding the normal flow, you can be ticketed. If 5 or more vehicles are "stuck behind" you, you can be ticketed even if going the full speed limit.

 

[GRA]

Seeing more and more of this:
<snip photo>

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the Plug in Prius as "an electric vehicle." When I search for "legal definition of electric vehicle" I get two main results, including:

(1) “a vehicle which is powered by an electric motor drawing current from rechargeable storage batteries, fuel cells, or other portable sources of electrical current, and which may include a nonelectrical source of power designed to charge batteries and components thereof.”

Yes, it's just you See the bolded word.

...of which I would argue a Prius does not use its gas engine to charge batteries (like a Volt), rather it drives the car, and

(2) " “a vehicle that is powered by an electric motor drawing current from rechargeable storage batteries or other portable electrical energy storage devices, provided that:
(a) Recharge energy must be drawn from a source off the vehicle, such as residential electric service; and
(b) The vehicle must comply with all provisions of the Zero Emission Vehicle definition found in 40 CFR 88.104-94(g).”

and the latter of which says:
(g) A light-duty vehicle or light-duty truck shall be certified as a ZEV if it is determined by engineering analysis that the vehicle satisfies the following conditions:
(a) The vehicle fuel system(s) must not contain either carbon or nitrogen compounds (including air) which, when burned, form any of the pollutants listed in Table A104-1 as exhaust emissions.
(b) All primary and auxiliary equipment and engines must have no emissions of any of the pollutants listed in Table A104-1.
(c) The vehicle fuel system(s) and any auxiliary engine(s) must have no evaporative emissions in use.
(d) Any auxiliary heater must not operate at ambient temperatures above 40 degrees Fahrenheit."

In the referred-to table are NMOG, CO, NOX, HCHO, and PM1, all of which the Prius emits (and so does the Volt).

Which is why the Volt is classified as an AT-PZEV, not a ZEV. Not sure if the PiP makes the AT-PZEV cut.

In my mind, 11 miles of range MAX at 62 miles per hour MAX is not an electric vehicle and it doesn't seem to meet the legal requirements to be labeled as one. But I'm not good at legalese either. So...what am I missing?

You're missing that your opinion as to what is a minimum acceptable range and speed for a PHEV to qualify as an EV is irrelevant to what the law says. My opinion may be that the PiP is a feeble PHEV, but I have no doubt that both technically and legally it is an electric vehicle.

 

[kubel]

This isn't a problem with the Prius. And it's not necessarily a problem with free charging. It's a problem with the spot being free after charging is completed.

I'm not in favor of public charging (I think home and work are the two best places to charge), but I think if free public charging is to work, the owner of the station should charge you for not using it. That would encourage the most efficient use of the station AND offset some of the cost associated with running a station.

If a PIP reaches 100% after 30 minutes of charging and then stays parked there for another 5 hours, he should be charged for a 4 hours and 30 minutes that he blocked the station. And that should equally apply to a Tesla Model S too.

 

[TomT]

Fine, sell it as a HEV and take away all the PHEV perks... At 11 miles of range it still is a pitiful PHEV...

The PIP isn't marketed as an EV, and I wouldn't call a mid-sized car that regularly gets over 60MPG in normal driving (with A/C on) "pitiful."

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

It can plug in and charge, so it should. If I had one, I'd charge everywhere I could, but not for long. It's got a 3.3 OBC, doesn't it? So half an hour? Hour tops? Is it possible to drive one and never use gas? PITA as that might be?

Guy at work has one. He lives ten miles from work and can charge on L2 at work. Never does. I would every day, but he doesn't care. To him, it just gives him better gas milage.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I hear these stories of folks buying PiPs and never plugging them in, even at home. So to me, it is great that these people are going out of their way to drive more electric miles.

 

[2k1Toaster]

I hear these stories of folks buying PiPs and never plugging them in, even at home. So to me, it is great that these people are going out of their way to drive more electric miles.

Most of those stories are those that buy it for the HOV stickers. Remember that the original Prius in CA got tons of sales because it allowed HOV access with 1 person. There are lots of archived stories on the web about people buying the Prius only because it could get in the lane. To some it was the ugliest, cheapest, slowest non-car piece of imported crap they had ever owned. But totally worth it to speed past people in the HOV lane.

 

[asimba2]

(1) “a vehicle which is powered by an electric motor drawing current from rechargeable storage batteries, fuel cells, or other portable sources of electrical current, and which may include a nonelectrical source of power designed to charge batteries and components thereof.”

Yes, it's just you See the bolded word.

Again, it says "may include a nonelectrical source of power designed to charge batteries." That's how a Volt works, but not a Prius.

 

[LeftieBiker]

While in your case, disliking that driver of that car is reasonable. Disliking an entire brand because of one person, seems unreasonable. But you are free to hate whom you wish.

I do not dislike the car, it's better than a pure ICE. I'm just posing the question, "is a PiP an electric vehicle." I think no.

And when REX-equipped BEVs become common, will you campaign against them?

It seems a common misunderstanding here that the PIP drivers are just trying to extend their EV range. I'll wager that they actually plug in, for the most part, because it means the difference between 60 and 80+MPG.

 

[mwalsh]

And when REX-equipped BEVs become common, will you campaign against them?

I think most wil have reasonable EV range. Take the proposed Mazda 2 - 20kWh pack and a 330cc rotary generator/2.3 gallon gasoline reserve thereafter.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I think most wil have reasonable EV range. Take the proposed Mazda 2 - 20kWh pack and a 330cc rotary generator/2.3 gallon gasoline reserve thereafter.

But they won't be electric vehicles!!! Burn them, I say!

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Until we have affordable longer range BEVs, they're a good step, a transition, a gateway drug to mainlining electrons.

 

[Mx5racer]

I rarely have "had" to charge at a public charger.
We plug in for a variety or reasons, but I would bet rarely is it that we have to.
If the pip plugs in he can go more clean electric miles.
He just needs to move away when he is done like everyone else.

 

[lion]

I hear these stories of folks buying PiPs and never plugging them in, even at home. So to me, it is great that these people are going out of their way to drive more electric miles.

Most of those stories are those that buy it for the HOV stickers. Remember that the original Prius in CA got tons of sales because it allowed HOV access with 1 person. There are lots of archived stories on the web about people buying the Prius only because it could get in the lane. To some it was the ugliest, cheapest, slowest non-car piece of imported crap they had ever owned. But totally worth it to speed past people in the HOV lane.

GetOffYourGas is right tho. No HOV lanes in my area, and there are tons of PiPs on the road now (mostly elderly people, or female drivers), even in rural areas, with many of them not even bothering with charging it. Can't say I blame them, since it can easily get 60MPG, and is cheaper than a similarly equipped regular Prius.

That said, I do consider it a real EV. I had one for 9 months, and even with just charging at home, a 40 mile commute meant 80-100MPG, which is really impressive. It also allowed me to go to my local grocery store, all electric, and I'm in a rural area.

I did not charge it in public as I never wanted to block a BEV which might really need it (but I feel the same way even with the LEAF now), but if proper charging etiquette is followed, a PiP deserves to charge just as much. In the end, our goals are the same, to use as little gasoline as possible.

 

[kubel]

Again, it says "may include a nonelectrical source of power designed to charge batteries." That's how a Volt works, but not a Prius.

If the PIP does not qualify for this reason, the Volt doesn't qualify either, since it can, under certain circumstances, use the ICE to help power the front wheels directly. At that point, the Volt is merely a more electrically dominant version of the Prius.

 

[2k1Toaster]

Again, it says "may include a nonelectrical source of power designed to charge batteries." That's how a Volt works, but not a Prius.

If the PIP does not qualify for this reason, the Volt doesn't qualify either, since it can, under certain circumstances, use the ICE to help power the front wheels directly. At that point, the Volt is merely a more electrically dominant version of the Prius.

No that means that the Prius ALWAYS qualifies where the Volt does not.

The Prius never drives the wheels directly with the engine. I don't know where asimba2 is getting that from. The volt does clutch in the engine at higher speeds (which is advantageous is some regards). The Prius has no clutch, no way to change gears, it is a static planetary gearset.

Notice how the outer ring gear driven by MG2 is the only source powering the wheels. The best the engine can do is spin the planetary carriers and use MG1 in the inner circle to generate power to be spent by MG2 going forwards and backwards.

So the Prius is an electric vehicle with a gasoline engine that powers it. Even the non plug in versions.

 

[rmay635703]

In Colorado you can get a ticket for impeding the flow of traffic even if you are going at or above the speed limit. If you are impeding the normal flow, you can be ticketed. If 5 or more vehicles are "stuck behind" you, you can be ticketed even if going the full speed limit.

That would not hold up in court and also could result in litigation against Colorado.

A Speed Limit is just that, it is not possible to EVER EXCEED IT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE EVER!
Or else you are doing something illegal.

If you did get pulled over for not breaking the law they are voliating some very old federal precedents that provide severe penalties for state agencies urging the public to break another law.

In this state, I have been pulled over for 2mph over the 65mph limit on an interstate for speeding.

So I find your statement to be false, I am not saying a cop can't pull you over under that logic but likewise they are open to investigation if they do so.

 

[2k1Toaster]

That would not hold up in court and also could result in litigation against Colorado.

A Speed Limit is just that, it is not possible to EVER EXCEED IT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE EVER!
Or else you are doing something illegal.

If you did get pulled over for not breaking the law they are voliating some very old federal precedents that provide severe penalties for state agencies urging the public to break another law.

In this state, I have been pulled over for 2mph over the 65mph limit on an interstate for speeding.

So I find your statement to be false, I am not saying a cop can't pull you over under that logic but likewise they are open to investigation if they do so.

Yes it does. It is common law in this area. I have seen people pulled over for it, and know of a couple that have been pulled over for it. If you are blocking the "normal flow" of traffic, you are impeding even if it is higher than the speedlimit. Get over and let people pass.

What we learned in the other forum's thread, is that driving style varies wildly from state to state. For instance in Washington/Oregon, if the sign says 65mph, people go 60-65mph and treat it as an upper limit. You'll be pulled over for a couple mph's over the limit. In California if it says 55mph or 75mph, it doesn't matter traffic will move as fast as possible to the next section of gridlock, and the cops are OK with this for the most part unless it is unsafe. Then there are states like Colorado where you can be pulled over for pretty much anything, so they reserve it for those causing hazards. Either too fast or too slow, but a hazard. Speeding in general won't get you pulled over. We have 55mph to 75mph highway and generally everyone is well above that around the 80mph mark all the time.

When the law came into effect, Colorado State Patrol launched a huge campaign on the radio and TV. Even issued warnings for the first year. This is part of their marketing message: