Chevrolet Spark EV

[GRA]

Fine, that's your specific circumstance, but that's no reason for others not to consider them and do as I suggest.

Because others will have their own specific circumstances. There is a reason why B segment is very small - and Spark is one of the smallest cars in B segment. In April, Spark ICE sold about 3k.

BTW, one thing most people here don't talk about is commitment. Apart from feature comparison etc. what really drives the sales is the commitment of the manufacturer. That is one of the primary reason compliance cars like Rav4 or Fit or Spark will sell very few.

B segment has been a small part of the market, but has been growing as Americans downsize the cars they buy. Millennials will push things even further in that direction, as they're primarily urban, haven't hit their peak earning years and generally don't have families of their own yet, so don't need family-size cars. As I mentioned upthread, the Spark is outselling the Yaris which has about the same interior volume, and is about 12 cu. ft. larger than the 500, which sold 3,899 last month. It's also larger than the Mini, which sold 5,786 (all 7 models) and 2,469 (hardtop 3-door) last month. The VW Beetle is about the same size, and sold 3,679 in April, 1,699 of which were convertibles. So while the market is a lot smaller than for compacts and mid-size, it is still a reasonable size.

Beyond the early adopters who got burned with the EV1, who cares about manufacturer commitment if you're leasing, which is what most of us recommend people do with the current gen BEVs? If the car suits you, go for it. If a particular manufacturer doesn't follow though, when the lease is up lessees will just move on to somebody else. We aren't in an EV1 world anymore; there are a growing number of PEV options.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

have to question whether downsizing works in the obese American Market. Our subcompacts and compacts have grown over the past several years due to market forces (and our waistlines!) and that is what is selling. these "mini-compacts?" I don't see getting much of a market at all other than high school, college crowd or some such and not even a large segment of that either

 

[GRA]

have to question whether downsizing works in the obese American Market. Our subcompacts and compacts have grown over the past several years due to market forces (and our waistlines!) and that is what is selling. these "mini-compacts?" I don't see getting much of a market at all other than high school, college crowd or some such and not even a large segment of that either

Spark is a sub-compact, per the EPA.

 

[evnow]

B segment has been a small part of the market, but has been growing as Americans downsize the cars they buy.

I've to check that. I know compacts are growing ... not sure about sub-compacts.

Beyond the early adopters who got burned with the EV1, who cares about manufacturer commitment if you're leasing, which is what most of us recommend people do with the current gen BEVs? If the car suits you, go for it. If a particular manufacturer doesn't follow though, when the lease is up lessees will just move on to somebody else. We aren't in an EV1 world anymore; there are a growing number of PEV options.

No commitments = dealers not interested = low sales.

For an individual buyer it means not much competition, so no discounts and also poorer customer service. Just see the relative prices & dealer attitude on the west coast compared to low Leaf volume states.

 

[GRA]

B segment has been a small part of the market, but has been growing as Americans downsize the cars they buy.

I've to check that. I know compacts are growing ... not sure about sub-compacts.

Stalled for the moment, apparently, but has been growing for the past five years and likely to resume growth again as CAFE tightens:

http://wardsauto.com/sales-amp-marketing/high-fuel-prices-fail-add-spark-us-subcompact-sales" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Beyond the early adopters who got burned with the EV1, who cares about manufacturer commitment if you're leasing, which is what most of us recommend people do with the current gen BEVs? If the car suits you, go for it. If a particular manufacturer doesn't follow though, when the lease is up lessees will just move on to somebody else. We aren't in an EV1 world anymore; there are a growing number of PEV options.

No commitments = dealers not interested = low sales.

For an individual buyer it means not much competition, so no discounts and also poorer customer service. Just see the relative prices & dealer attitude on the west coast compared to low Leaf volume states.

Since the Spark EV is going to be introduced on the west coast, that shouldn't be a problem then, right? I've been averaging a Spark sighting about every two or three days this month (including a black one Friday and a green one Saturday), so they are definitely selling in the bay area. I also see a fair number of Mazda 2s and Yaris', which just squeak into the compact class, and the occasional Fiesta. Not sure why the Spark may be outselling the Fiesta, but at least in my totally unscientific survey the former is more common than the latter. I'd take a Fiesta ST over the ICE Spark any day.

 

[evnow]

Since the Spark EV is going to be introduced on the west coast, that shouldn't be a problem then, right?

If the volume is low, then don't expect good deals (unless arranged by the OEM, like with RAV4 EV or Mitsu i).

I don't expect Spark EV to sell more than FFE.

 

[KeiJidosha]

...Stalled for the moment, apparently, but has been growing for the past five years and likely to resume growth again as CAFE tightens...

and/or gas prices rise. The pendulum seems to swing from Silverado to Spark in sync with fuel prices.

 

[Reddy]

http://insideevs.com/beyond-the-num...iced-well-on-paper-at-27495-but-will-it-sell/

 

[scottf200]

GM source when questions if car can be taken outside of CA/OR:

CA and OR are amazing markets to launch EVs ... there's a tremendous appetite by all stakeholders for them to succeed there. That said, if you purchase a Spark EV it's yours to take wherever you choose (unless you took a state incentive, which may require you to keep it in bounds for a certain amount of time or risk forfeiting the $$$!)

Unlike the Toyota RAV EV it seems like Non-CA/OR Spark EV owners would be more confident in doing this because GM dealers that service the Volt would have the expertise to deal with the Spark EV as well. Or at least it would not be that hard to adjust.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Unlike the Toyota RAV EV it seems like Non-CA/OR Spark EV owners would be more confident in doing this because GM dealers that service the Volt would have the expertise to deal with the Spark EV as well. Or at least it would not be that hard to adjust.

Toyota also has a plug in hybrid like the Volt; the Plug-In Prius. Those are sold everywhere, too.

So, the only "extra" place in the USA that a Spark EV compliance car is sold versus the Rav4 EV compliance car will be Oregon. If Oregon wasn't in the picture, it would be identical.

But, Toyota isn't tying to further a new charging standard to slow Nissan down. Therefore, Oregon is merely to "comply" with GM's desire "stick it" to Nissan. By GM doing this, fun things potentially happen in California to aid GM in their quest to muddy the waters for DC charging.

 

[cgaydos]

Unlike the Toyota RAV EV it seems like Non-CA/OR Spark EV owners would be more confident in doing this because GM dealers that service the Volt would have the expertise to deal with the Spark EV as well. Or at least it would not be that hard to adjust.

Toyota also has a plug in hybrid like the Volt; the Plug-In Prius. Those are sold everywhere, too.

So, the only "extra" place in the USA that a Spark EV compliance car is sold versus the Rav4 EV compliance car will be Oregon. If Oregon wasn't in the picture, it would be identical.

But, Toyota isn't tying to further a new charging standard to slow Nissan down. Therefore, Oregon is merely to "comply" with GM's desire "stick it" to Nissan. By GM doing this, fun things potentially happen in California to aid GM in their quest to muddy the waters for DC charging.

I wonder how much Toyota dealer's very extensive experience with hybrids matters when we are talking about the RAV4 EV. I ask the question because of my own experience with LEAF warranty work. On the LEAF, at least, there is an entirely new (to the Nissan service techs) approach to problem diagnostics and maintenace. Although Nissan had an Altima hybrid (based on Toyota technology) for many years, the LEAF was a completely different animal.

I think its probable that a Spark EV works basically the same as a Volt, minus the complexities of an ICE. But does the RAV4 EV work like a Prius-minus-the-ICE, or are they as different as the Altima Hybrid and the LEAF?

 

[TonyWilliams]

I think its probable that a Spark EV works basically the same as a Volt, minus the complexities of an ICE. But does the RAV4 EV work like a Prius-minus-the-ICE, or are they as different as the Altima Hybrid and the LEAF?

Well, all the electrics work "about the same", but no, the Tesla drive train in the Rav4 EV shares virtually nothing with a Prius Plug-In.

 

[evnow]

Regarding Oregon and CARB - AFAIK, Oregon also has ZEV mandates. But the numbers are so low, most OEMs just pay fines, I guess. I remember this because there were some articles a while back about introducing this in WA also - to get the OEMs sell in WA as well. I believe something is in the works.

In a few years, may be all the current CA emission states will enact ZEV mandates as well (after all, they have little to lose).

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1080855_why-washington-state-residents-could-lose-out-on-electric-cars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But unfortunately for Washington electric car fans, the state hasn't adoped the zero-emission vehicle (ZEV) regulations found in California and Oregon, among others--making the choice of available electric cars lower than it could be.

As Edmunds reports, other states set to adopt the ZEV mandate include Connecticut, D.C., Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Rhode Island and Vermont. Washington is unusual in having accepted California's clean air vehicle requirements, but not the ZEV mandate.

It's the compliance cars that WA residents will most miss out on.

 

[GRA]

Since the Spark EV is going to be introduced on the west coast, that shouldn't be a problem then, right?

If the volume is low, then don't expect good deals (unless arranged by the OEM, like with RAV4 EV or Mitsu i).

I don't expect Spark EV to sell more than FFE.

I expect it to do better than the FFE, which IMO is crippled by its high price and lack of cargo space, with lack of QC capability as an additional factor.

...Stalled for the moment, apparently, but has been growing for the past five years and likely to resume growth again as CAFE tightens...

and/or gas prices rise. The pendulum seems to swing from Silverado to Spark in sync with fuel prices.

Ain't that the truth

http://insideevs.com/beyond-the-num...iced-well-on-paper-at-27495-but-will-it-sell/

You beat me to it! I do disagree with the author's premise that the cars that are conversions haven't been selling because they're indistinguishable from the ICE versions. As with the FFE, I think the problems are due to the specifics of the conversion and/or their pricing, not that they are conversions. I think the 500e will move just fine, even if Sergio Marchionne's wallet gasps in pain every time that happens The RAV4EV is perceived as too expensive, but I haven't seen a lot of complaints that they refuse to buy it because it's based on the gas model. Nor is anyone considering a Smart ED likely to be turned off because it's based on the ICE; the EV is a nicer car except for range.

No, for cars like the FFE, HFE and especially the C-Max Energi and PiP I think the problem lies elsewhere.

 

[GRA]

Regarding Oregon and CARB - AFAIK, Oregon also has ZEV mandates. But the numbers are so low, most OEMs just pay fines, I guess. I remember this because there were some articles a while back about introducing this in WA also - to get the OEMs sell in WA as well. I believe something is in the works.

In a few years, may be all the current CA emission states will enact ZEV mandates as well (after all, they have little to lose).

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1080855_why-washington-state-residents-could-lose-out-on-electric-cars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But unfortunately for Washington electric car fans, the state hasn't adoped the zero-emission vehicle (ZEV) regulations found in California and Oregon, among others--making the choice of available electric cars lower than it could be.

As Edmunds reports, other states set to adopt the ZEV mandate include Connecticut, D.C., Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Rhode Island and Vermont. Washington is unusual in having accepted California's clean air vehicle requirements, but not the ZEV mandate.

It's the compliance cars that WA residents will most miss out on.

Thanks for that.

 

[evnow]

You beat me to it! I do disagree with the author's premise that the cars that are conversions haven't been selling because they're indistinguishable from the ICE versions. As with the FFE, I think the problems are due to the specifics of the conversion and/or their pricing, not that they are conversions. I think the 500e will move just fine, even if Sergio Marchionne's wallet gasps in pain every time that happens The RAV4EV is perceived as too expensive, but I haven't seen a lot of complaints that they refuse to buy it because it's based on the gas model. Nor is anyone considering a Smart ED likely to be turned off because it's based on the ICE; the EV is a nicer car except for range.

No, for cars like the FFE, HFE and especially the C-Max Energi and PiP I think the problem lies elsewhere.

With conversions there are two problems. One is the utility sacrifice - as with the Ford conversions. That certainly can be a big problem.

The second is that - it allows for easy comparison - and economically it looks not good at all. Who wants to pay almost double for a RAV4 EV compared to gas RAV4 ? The other way to look at it is - the conversions have the same build quality as the low end gas cars. If Leaf were a Versa conversion, it would have sold less.

I think it is a combination of several factors that make these cars not desirable
- conversions with utility
- lot more expensive than the gas counterpart
- no marketing support from OEM
- dealers don't care to push the car (because OEMs don't care) and because it is a low volume car. For dealers to really want to sell the car, it needs to come in volume. They need to have enough variants on the lot to be able to make the sale quickly and book the revenue.

 

[GRA]

You beat me to it! I do disagree with the author's premise that the cars that are conversions haven't been selling because they're indistinguishable from the ICE versions. As with the FFE, I think the problems are due to the specifics of the conversion and/or their pricing, not that they are conversions. I think the 500e will move just fine, even if Sergio Marchionne's wallet gasps in pain every time that happens The RAV4EV is perceived as too expensive, but I haven't seen a lot of complaints that they refuse to buy it because it's based on the gas model. Nor is anyone considering a Smart ED likely to be turned off because it's based on the ICE; the EV is a nicer car except for range.

No, for cars like the FFE, HFE and especially the C-Max Energi and PiP I think the problem lies elsewhere.

With conversions there are two problems. One is the utility sacrifice - as with the Ford conversions. That certainly can be a big problem.

The second is that - it allows for easy comparison - and economically it looks not good at all. Who wants to pay almost double for a RAV4 EV compared to gas RAV4 ? The other way to look at it is - the conversions have the same build quality as the low end gas cars. If Leaf were a Versa conversion, it would have sold less.

I think it is a combination of several factors that make these cars not desirable
- conversions with utility
- lot more expensive than the gas counterpart
- no marketing support from OEM
- dealers don't care to push the car (because OEMs don't care) and because it is a low volume car. For dealers to really want to sell the car, it needs to come in volume. They need to have enough variants on the lot to be able to make the sale quickly and book the revenue.

I view the conversions as making it much easier to do direct apples to apples life-cycle-cost comparisons, which I think eliminates many of the wilder claims among some EV enthusiasts that BEVs invariably paid-back, and that it wasn't possible to directly compare the Leaf with a car like the Versa (remember that thread?). No such argument can be made when comparing the FFE/ Focus, HFE/Fit, RAV/EV, 500e/500, Spark/EV or Smart/ED. With the lower prices, especially the lower lease prices now available and the incentives, I think it's now possible to make an economic argument for leasing these cars (with the exception of the Smart, we still don't have enough battery price data to do life-cycle-costs for purchases, and reliable battery lifetimes remain unknown). That wasn't the case with the much higher prices two years ago.

 

[KeiJidosha]

...I view the conversions as making it much easier to do direct apples to apples life-cycle-cost comparisons, which I think eliminates many of the wilder claims among some EV enthusiasts that BEVs invariably paid-back, and that it wasn't possible to directly compare the Leaf with a car like the Versa (remember that thread?). No such argument can be made when comparing the FFE/ Focus, HFE/Fit, RAV/EV, 500e/500, Spark/EV or Smart/ED. With the lower prices, especially the lower lease prices now available and the incentives, I think it's now possible to make an economic argument for leasing these cars (with the exception of the Smart, we still don't have enough battery price data to do life-cycle-costs for purchases, and reliable battery lifetimes remain unknown). That wasn't the case with the much higher prices two years ago.

And besides the quantitative price comparison it highlights the qualitative driving experience. Electrification offers superior urban performance and cures many of the ICE/transmission ills for Spark, Smart, Fit, and 500. Who doesn’t want better performance? The problem is that buyers dismiss electrification without doing the actual comparison.

 

[scottf200]

Unlike the Toyota RAV EV it seems like Non-CA/OR Spark EV owners would be more confident in doing this because GM dealers that service the Volt would have the expertise to deal with the Spark EV as well. Or at least it would not be that hard to adjust.

Toyota also has a plug in hybrid like the Volt; the Plug-In Prius. Those are sold everywhere, too. So, the only "extra" place in the USA that a Spark EV compliance car is sold versus the Rav4 EV compliance car will be Oregon. If Oregon wasn't in the picture, it would be identical.
But, Toyota isn't tying to further a new charging standard to slow Nissan down. Therefore, Oregon is merely to "comply" with GM's desire "stick it" to Nissan. By GM doing this, fun things potentially happen in California to aid GM in their quest to muddy the waters for DC charging.

Obviously the PIP is not even close to the same as the Tesla RAV4 EV. Support would be totally different.

And yes we all heard your conspiracy theory about 1,001 times on this site and every other one that we've seen you on. Does it make your DC "gas station" CTO at EVOasis job harder or something? Highly suspicious motives. Nissan's incredibly poor customer service related to the battery issue is likely enough to slow themselves down. GM's customer service has been far better in dealing with big problems. Case in point you don't even own a LEAF anymore!!! I'm sure it is because of GM <grin>. Your post make my day.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Unlike the Toyota RAV EV it seems like Non-CA/OR Spark EV owners would be more confident in doing this because GM dealers that service the Volt would have the expertise to deal with the Spark EV as well. Or at least it would not be that hard to adjust.

Toyota also has a plug in hybrid like the Volt; the Plug-In Prius. Those are sold everywhere, too. So, the only "extra" place in the USA that a Spark EV compliance car is sold versus the Rav4 EV compliance car will be Oregon. If Oregon wasn't in the picture, it would be identical.
But, Toyota isn't tying to further a new charging standard to slow Nissan down. Therefore, Oregon is merely to "comply" with GM's desire "stick it" to Nissan. By GM doing this, fun things potentially happen in California to aid GM in their quest to muddy the waters for DC charging.

Obviously the PIP is not even close to the same as the Tesla RAV4 EV. Support would be totally different.

Well, let's see what's the same between a Volt and a Spark EV. They're made on different continents, with different batteries and completely different cell packaging, different electric drive motor... actually, different everything... oh wait, the crappy 3.3kW charger is probably the same, but of course, not the Frankenplug charger port which a Volt doesn't even have (but the Volt does have two separate refueling ports). Yeppers, a comparison with a PiP and a Rav4 EV is way, way different than the Korean built conversion CARB compliance Spark EV and the Volt. Heck, all four cars are completely different.

And yes we all heard your conspiracy theory about 1,001 times on this site and every other one that we've seen you on. Does it make your DC "gas station" CTO at EVOasis job harder or something? Highly suspicious motives.

Oooooo!!! Let me guess? You're going to regale us with YOUR conspiracy theory of MY conspiracy theory. This oughta be "rich". For the non-brain dead like Scott, clearly, by bringing a new protocol into an already nascent industry doesn't normally bode well. It increases cost and complexity. It makes both regulators and industry step back and reassess things. It slows things up. It does everything GM and their cohorts need when Nissan is way out in front, and they have nothing else to offer.

I make no secret that I don't like the whole Frankenplug program. I don't like how the standard isn't even a standard amongst all members (there's a German and GM version of the Frankenplug). I personally hope it fails miserably. Like an Edsel.

I'm somewhat confident that GM will never reach the sales volume to put much pressure on a robust Frankenplug deployment, and that my brainwashed GM puppet means death to Frankenplug. But, I realize there are plenty of zombies like you rooting for it.

Had the reverse been true, by the way, that GM was on top of things and started a Frankenplug program in 2007 and had 2500 deployed worldwide to that one standard, and then a consortium of manufacturers tried to implement CHAdeMO, I'd be against that also.

It's not a technical argument at all, as both standards are far more similar than they are different.