Chevrolet Spark EV

[TonyWilliams]

Merged.

Why? There can only be ONE thread for the Spark? Seems kinda crazy.

I'm sure there are many that have given up on this gigantic thread after seeing the BS, arguments + FUD being distributed. When there are new facts - vs. the speculation that ran wild in this thread - they should be broken out in a new thread that people can easily find.

This is a LEAF forum, and this is the "Other Electric Cars" sub-forum. I don't think we want multiple threads on every single issue with other cars; if you're that interested in those cars, go to their respective enthusiast forum (yes, the Spark EV has one).

I personally don't own a LEAF, however I do have an electric car and when I want to say something about it, I put it in the singular thread in this forum about that car. I also contribute to its respective enthusiast website in a multitude of threads, just like here when we're talking about the LEAF.

 

[GRA]

Judging by the number I've seen around here since it went on sale (including one last night), the gas Spark is fairly popular in the Bay Area. When I checked last month it was outselling the Yaris for the year, IIRC.

I don't think I've seen a single ICEV Spark in the Bay Area. GM cars (non-"light trucks") aren't real popular in CA.

I've seen three or four. The uncertain one was seen briefly at a distance and might have been a Sonic; I've seen a fair number of them too. It's true that GM or for that matter, U.S. brand cars generally haven't been very popular in the Bay Area for decades, outside of the occasional Pony car and for some reason Chrysler 300s. But that started to change with the Malibu about 1 gen back, the 300s mentioned above, and I see quite a few Focus/Fusions and Cruzes these days, mixed in with the ubiquitous Camrys/Accords/Corollas/Civics/Altimas and Prii. Quite a change from even three years ago.

Edit: Oh, and Volts too. Saw 24 LEAFs and 20 Volts last month. I could see that many Camrys, Accords or Prii in ten minutes at a signal, but the number of PEVs around is still quite an increase from before the good lease deals started last summer.

 

[GRA]

Not sure why there is "so much" attention paid to Yet Another Tiny Compliance EV that most of us will never get to see.

Why wouldn't _you_ see it, since it will be sold in Oregon from the get go? If people have bought LEAFs and RAV4EVs and shipped them across the country, why couldn't you buy a Spark in Portland and drive it back to Seattle - it's only 173 miles? Granted, 3.3 kW charging enroute would be a pain in the absence of any CCS QCs, but you could certainly do the trip in a long day or an easy weekend.

You don't get many long days or easy weekends with a one year old ;-)

There is zero reason why I would even consider spark EV over Leaf. It is difficult enough to install child seats in compact cars, I guess in a Spark it is impossible. Even if my wife would consider buying a GM car (she wouldn't).

Fine, that's your specific circumstance, but that's no reason for others not to consider them and do as I suggest. A $199/month base model lease appears to be the going rate for all the newer BEVs, so they will be competing head-to-head on size, driving fun and specific features; range appears to be essentially identical. It's great that people will have so many competing options.

That's assuming that GM doesn't expand their sales beyond the initial two states, which would seem unlikely. After all, sales in Oregon don't help GM with CARB credits, so if the Spark was intended purely as a compliance car why would they offer it in any state but California? Correct me if I'm wrong, but while Toyota with the RAV4 EV and Fiat with the 500e don't offer them for sale outside California for just that reason, even Honda offers the Fit EV beyond California, and it's more of a compliance car than the Spark is - you can buy the Spark, for a much lower price.

It is not clear why GM alone is selling in OR - but from my understanding OR also has rules about selling minimum number of ZEVs in the state, just like CARB.[/quote]
Can anyone confirm that, and what the rules might be?

 

[TonyWilliams]

It is not clear why GM alone is selling in OR - but from my understanding OR also has rules about selling minimum number of ZEVs in the state, just like CARB.
Can anyone confirm that, and what the rules might be?

It because for the NRG/EVgo deal to begin to install Frankenplug chargers, the Spark EV has to be more than a compliance car for GM.

So, there sell a couple in another state... preferably the closest one to California with people who will actually buy an EV. It's a short list.

Then, while GM is busy telling the EPA that they shouldn't have to build CARB compliance cars because nobody wants them, they will be talking out the other side of their posterior telling CARB how they LOVE to sell EV's all over the place (like Oregon), and while the Spark EV is OBVIOUSLY for CARB-ZEV compliance, the Spark EV is sold "everywhere".

Now, please build us some government paid for Frankenplugs in California.

 

[GRA]

It is not clear why GM alone is selling in OR - but from my understanding OR also has rules about selling minimum number of ZEVs in the state, just like CARB.
Can anyone confirm that, and what the rules might be?

It because for the NRG/EVgo deal to begin to install Frankenplug chargers, the Spark EV has to be more than a compliance car for GM.

So, there sell a couple in another state... preferably the closest one to California with people who will actually buy an EV. It's a short list.

Then, while GM is busy telling the EPA that they shouldn't have to build CARB compliance cars because nobody wants them, they will be talking out the other side of their posterior telling CARB how they LOVE to sell EV's all over the place (like Oregon), and while the Spark EV is OBVIOUSLY for CARB-ZEV compliance, the Spark EV is sold "everywhere".

Now, please build us some government paid for Frankenplugs in California.

I'm all for building as many QCs of any type as possible. But NRG is paying for the QCs in California under the terms of their settlement, no? Makes no difference whether they're CHAdeMo, SAE, or dual, NRG will be footing the bill.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I'm all for building as many QCs of any type as possible. But NRG is paying for the QCs in California under the terms of their settlement, no? Makes no difference whether they're CHAdeMo, SAE, or dual, NRG will be footing the bill.

It's money that would have been owed the state that was traded for this deal. Yes, NRG is paying, but they'd be paying California or buying chargers.

It does make a difference on the charger protocols, which are spelled out in the agreement. It obviously doesn't name Frankenplug, since it didn't exist then, but they obviously had GM yelling in their ear with the appropriate provisions.

For instance, there absolutely won't be Frankenplug only sites, but there will be CHAdeMO only sites until the GM charger consortium meets the basic qualifications. I'm not convinced the Spark EV will do that, but I'm sure GM is convinced. Heck, it's sold in.... Oregon, too!!!

 

[GRA]

I'm all for building as many QCs of any type as possible. But NRG is paying for the QCs in California under the terms of their settlement, no? Makes no difference whether they're CHAdeMo, SAE, or dual, NRG will be footing the bill.

It's money that would have been owed the state that was traded for this deal. Yes, NRG is paying, but they'd be paying California or buyer chargers.

It does make a difference on the charger protocols, which are spelled out in the agreement. It obviously doesn't name Frankenplug, since it didn't exist then, but they obviously had GM yelling in their ear with the appropriate provisions.

For instance, there absolutely won't be Frankenplug only sites, but there will be CHAdeMO only sites until the GM charger consortium meets the basic qualifications. I'm not convinced the Spark EV will do that, but I'm sure GM is convinced. Heck, it's sold in.... Oregon, too!!!

Given the % of U.S. BEV sales that occur in our two states, that's a pretty good place to rack up initial sales and judge the size of the market; if it won't work here, it isn't going to work anywhere else in the U.S.

I'm really looking forward to a road test, better yet a comparo between the 500e and Spark EV, because I think those two will be going head to head for all the people who don't need the Leaf's room but want a more fun, better performing BEV to drive, and who consider the Fit EV way overpriced. Honda really needs to drop the lease on that now, or they won't come close to their quota. The Smart ED won't be a player among driving enthusiasts, but the 500e will be and the Spark EV may be.

 

[evnow]

Fine, that's your specific circumstance, but that's no reason for others not to consider them and do as I suggest.

Because others will have their own specific circumstances. There is a reason why B segment is very small - and Spark is one of the smallest cars in B segment. In April, Spark ICE sold about 3k.

BTW, one thing most people here don't talk about is commitment. Apart from feature comparison etc. what really drives the sales is the commitment of the manufacturer. That is one of the primary reason compliance cars like Rav4 or Fit or Spark will sell very few.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Fine, that's your specific circumstance, but that's no reason for others not to consider them and do as I suggest.

Because others will have their own specific circumstances. There is a reason why B segment is very small - and Spark is one of the smallest cars in B segment. In April, Spark ICE sold about 3k.

BTW, one thing most people here don't talk about is commitment. Apart from feature comparison etc. what really drives the sales is the commitment of the manufacturer. That is one of the primary reason compliance cars like Rav4 or Fit or Spark will sell very few.

+1. the level of commitment by Nissan is the reason why I put my name (and money) down to get the LEAF sight unseen. I figured that that much commitment to a product was indicative of their level of confidence in the product. it also shows others that are fence sitting that a heavy widespread distribution means a lot of knowledge (eventually!) and service support which is key for a new product.

We have the Focus EV here but I would have concerns over finding a good service tech based on the rarity of the vehicle. I don't want him learning on my car and even if that is not the case, people will think that. as an early LEAFer, I know what its like to be the first one thru the sales/lease process and it was not a pleasant experience.

 

[cgaydos]

+1. the level of commitment by Nissan is the reason why I put my name (and money) down to get the LEAF sight unseen. I figured that that much commitment to a product was indicative of their level of confidence in the product. it also shows others that are fence sitting that a heavy widespread distribution means a lot of knowledge (eventually!) and service support which is key for a new product.

We have the Focus EV here but I would have concerns over finding a good service tech based on the rarity of the vehicle. I don't want him learning on my car and even if that is not the case, people will think that. as an early LEAFer, I know what its like to be the first one thru the sales/lease process and it was not a pleasant experience.

I agree in principle, but I'd put the Focus EV in the same category as the LEAF, Volt and Tesla for manufacturer commitment to EV. Probably in 4th place behind those three, but far ahead of everyone else.

First, unlike every other compliance car the Focus EV is actually HERE in Colorado, with several on lots and available for test drives. Second, the Ford sales people are trained on the EV to about the same degree as a LEAF salesperson is - at least from what I found from a sample of two Ford salespeople. Third, they have chargers at every dealer with the same model as Nissan - available to the public but subject to the whim of the individual dealer. Fourth, after Toyota there isn't a manufacturer/dealer network with more experience with electric motors and batteries than Ford. This does give them a lot of leverage in terms of learning about how to service the Focus EV - something a lot of Nissan dealers lacked, btw, as the Altima hybrid was not broadly available when it was made.

Having said all that we test drove the Focus EV and the whole family opted to get a second LEAF instead.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... I'd put the Focus EV in the same category as the LEAF, Volt and Tesla for manufacturer commitment to EV. Probably in 4th place behind those three, but far ahead of everyone else.

First, unlike every other compliance car the Focus EV is actually HERE in Colorado...

Wow, that's bold!!! Do you know how much commitment Ford put in the design of the Focus EV? (hint, they didn't want it or do it) Sure, since they had to build something for CARB-ZEV credits or pay big bucks to Tesla and Nissan for the credits, they don't mind selling a few "extra" anywhere that people will buy one. Makes sense to me.

Toyota is the most hardline on compliance (and I'll bet Fiat/Chrysler, too). They will only build the exact number and only sell in California until they will have satisfied the 2012-2014 CARB phase three, all the while working hard to get CARB to rescind the requirement through their lobbying.

Even Honda starting selling the Fit EV outside of California!!! It is the only compliance car on the market that sells less than Rav4 EV.

 

[Deleted member 8423]

BTW, one thing most people here don't talk about is commitment. Apart from feature comparison etc. what really drives the sales is the commitment of the manufacturer. That is one of the primary reason <edit> cars like Rav4 or Fit or Spark will sell very few.

Volt, Spark, ELR. Why don't you consider that a commitment?

 

[cwerdna]

BTW, one thing most people here don't talk about is commitment. Apart from feature comparison etc. what really drives the sales is the commitment of the manufacturer. That is one of the primary reason <edit> cars like Rav4 or Fit or Spark will sell very few.

Volt, Spark, ELR. Why don't you consider that a commitment?

Volt and ELR aren't BEVs. They're PHEVs. Spark EV and ELR aren't shipping yet. Spark EV appears to be not much more than a CA compliance car.

And, there's what GM did w/the EV1...

... I'd put the Focus EV in the same category as the LEAF, Volt and Tesla for manufacturer commitment to EV. Probably in 4th place behind those three, but far ahead of everyone else.

First, unlike every other compliance car the Focus EV is actually HERE in Colorado...

Wow, that's bold!!! Do you know how much commitment Ford put in the design of the Focus EV? Sure, since they had to build something or pay big bucks to Tesla and Nissan for CARB-ZEV credits, they don't mind selling a few anywhere people will buy one. Makes sense to me.

Bold indeed. Until recently, it seemed that Ford was hardly spending any effort in trying to sell it or even properly market it. I posted at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=198487#p198487" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; about how badly they bungled announcing (or rather not announcing) a FFE event here in the Bay Area.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

+1. the level of commitment by Nissan is the reason why I put my name (and money) down to get the LEAF sight unseen. I figured that that much commitment to a product was indicative of their level of confidence in the product. it also shows others that are fence sitting that a heavy widespread distribution means a lot of knowledge (eventually!) and service support which is key for a new product.

We have the Focus EV here but I would have concerns over finding a good service tech based on the rarity of the vehicle. I don't want him learning on my car and even if that is not the case, people will think that. as an early LEAFer, I know what its like to be the first one thru the sales/lease process and it was not a pleasant experience.

Second, the Ford sales people are trained on the EV to about the same degree as a LEAF salesperson is - at least from what I found from a sample of two Ford salespeople.
.

don't know what Nissan salesmen are required to do but the Focus EV comes with 6 online training modules and sales is required to complete 4 of them but they do have access to all 6 (the other two are for the Service dept) I went thru all 6 and if the two dealerships I worked at are typical, I would have been the only salesman that did.

the problem with Ford is that they have already announced they don't feel EVs are ready and that plug ins are the way to go which is why they have two Energi's and I expect those lines to expand. So hard to get behind a Ford EV when Ford cant even do it

 

[cgaydos]

Tony and cwerdna:

Look, I put Ford 4th behind Tesla, Nissan, and Chevy in terms of EV commitment. I'm not saying they are the best by any means nor am I saying they are up to the standards of the other three - indeed they aren't.

BUT ... as I said, they actually sell their EVs at quite a number of dealers here in Colorado. Even freaking Nissan didn't bother with Colorado until over a year after they introduced it elsewhere - we were even behind Texas and Tennessee (a fact that I'm still annoyed with, in case you hadn't noticed). And when they are in Colorado that means they are in almost all other states.

This puts them well ahead of the other "compliance" cars which are barely heard of outside of CA. And, yes, that means you, BMW, Mercedes/Smart, HONDA, and Mitsubishi.

I'm not a Ford fan by any means. It's one of the few brands I've never owned. But credit where it is due. Ford's line-up of hybrids, PHEVs, and, wow, even a real, nationally-available, EV - well, it's impressive. And their nationally-subsidized lease for the Focus EV is impressive, albeit still not quite competitive with the LEAF. (However, Ford still has to work off many decades of environmental demerits for merely envisioning, let alone producing, the Excursion.)

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Tony and cwerdna:

Look, I put Ford 4th behind Tesla, Nissan, and Chevy in terms of EV commitment. I'm not saying they are the best by any means nor am I saying they are up to the standards of the other three - indeed they aren't.

BUT ... as I said, they actually sell their EVs at quite a number of dealers here in Colorado. Even freaking Nissan didn't bother with Colorado until over a year after they introduced it elsewhere - we were even behind Texas and Tennessee (a fact that I'm still annoyed with, in case you hadn't noticed). And when they are in Colorado that means they are in almost all other states.

This puts them well ahead of the other "compliance" cars which are barely heard of outside of CA. And, yes, that means you, BMW, Mercedes/Smart, HONDA, and Mitsubishi.

I'm not a Ford fan by any means. It's one of the few brands I've never owned. But credit where it is due. Ford's line-up of hybrids, PHEVs, and, wow, even a real, nationally-available, EV - well, it's impressive. And their nationally-subsidized lease for the Focus EV is impressive, albeit still not quite competitive with the LEAF. (However, Ford still has to work off many decades of environmental demerits for merely envisioning, let alone producing, the Excursion.)

well your list could be how quickly each brought a product to Market as well too with the exception of Mitsubishi. what it really boils down to is the 3 you mentioned came into the EV market by creating it. the rest only followed due to peer pressure, CA emission regs, and probably more than a bit of worry over the emerging sales successes and growing groundswell support for the technology

 

[TonyWilliams]

This puts them well ahead of the other "compliance" cars which are barely heard of outside of CA. And, yes, that means you, BMW, Mercedes/Smart, HONDA, and Mitsubishi.

Of your list, only Honda is a "Very Large Manufacturer" and required to comply with CARB-ZEV rules.

 

[evnow]

Look, I put Ford 4th behind Tesla, Nissan, and Chevy in terms of EV commitment. I'm not saying they are the best by any means nor am I saying they are up to the standards of the other three - indeed they aren't.

Ford is an enigma. They distribute FFE like it was a serious effort - but market it (or not!) as if it is a compliance car. My guess is, a large section of Ford executives are not convinced about EVs being viable and as accompany they are confused - thus this Schizophrenia.

BTW, Bill Ford personally has been a promoter of "green" cars and spoken out about climate change more than any Detroit auto exec. But he has only limited influence in his company, apparently.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Look, I put Ford 4th behind Tesla, Nissan, and Chevy in terms of EV commitment. I'm not saying they are the best by any means nor am I saying they are up to the standards of the other three - indeed they aren't.

Ford is an enigma. They distribute FFE like it was a serious effort - but market it (or not!) as if it is a compliance car. My guess is, a large section of Ford executives are not convinced about EVs being viable and as accompany they are confused - thus this Schizophrenia.

BTW, Bill Ford personally has been a promoter of "green" cars and spoken out about climate change more than any Detroit auto exec. But he has only limited influence in his company, apparently.

I think Ford is rather transparent. their push is plug in technology with the Energi line. the Focus EV was built for CA requirements ONLY. They "distribute" the car nationwide but at a bare bones level only.

incentives will tell the tale so watch the difference in efforts between the Energi's and EV

 

[evnow]

One last comment about FFE before getting back to Spark. This is from TMC - shows how the non-commitment from the OEM drives the dealer narrative.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/4886-Ford-Focus-EV/page20?p=328515#post328515" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So I started calling the NH dealers on the list but not one of them had a car. None of them had ever had a FFE on their lot, so it's not like they were sold out. Many of the dealers who, according to Ford's web site, were selling the car, were quite negative about it. The comments ranged from very polite to "We'll never get one of those in here if we have any choice about it. Only if Ford forces us to take it." A couple of dealers said they would special order one but they couldn't guarantee it would be there before the lease deal expired, and they would require a non-refundable deposit. Some of them referred me to dealers in MA that had inventory (2.5 hrs away). Ford and their dealers were such a PITA to deal with that I have finally given up.