Chevrolet Bolt & Bolt EUV

[GRA]

median income can afford the average price of a new vehicle,

Bill Gates walks into a bar. The average wealth is now in the millions. Doesn't help the guy at the corner table pay for a beer.

Compare average income with average price.

Or median income with median price.

Comparing median income with average price is meaningless and misleading.

If I could find both I would. Median Family income is easily available, but searches for median new vehicle prices don't seem to exist on the web, only average prices. For instance: http://mediaroom.kbb.com/record-new-car-transaction-prices-reported-december-2015

If you've got a source for median vehicle prices, please do post it.

 

[WetEV]

Comparing median income with average price is meaningless and misleading.

If I could find both I would. Median Family income is easily available, but searches for median new vehicle prices don't seem to exist on the web, only average prices. For instance: http://mediaroom.kbb.com/record-new-car-transaction-prices-reported-december-2015

If you've got a source for median vehicle prices, please do post it.

I do not have a good source for median vehicle prices. And as discounts from list price can be very significant, some of which KBB doesn't include in the reported "transaction" prices.

15 yard penalty for misuse of statistics and loss of down. :lol:

What was your point, anyway?

Was it maybe that the Bolt, being at near the average price, is well above the median price, and isn't truly affordable to the majority of people?

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

It's well above average for what people pay for THAT kind of car. A Honda HRV, Mazda CX3, Nissan Rogue, etc can be had for around 20.
The Bolt will certainly require a buyer willing to pay a premium for driving electric.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

median income can afford the average price of a new vehicle,

Bill Gates walks into a bar. The average wealth is now in the millions. Doesn't help the guy at the corner table pay for a beer.

Compare average income with average price.

Or median income with median price.

Comparing median income with average price is meaningless and misleading.

If I could find both I would. Median Family income is easily available, but searches for median new vehicle prices don't seem to exist on the web, only average prices. For instance: http://mediaroom.kbb.com/record-new-car-transaction-prices-reported-december-2015

If you've got a source for median vehicle prices, please do post it.

don't waste your time. this is a long standing car sales ploy to mask real selling prices. they simply don't want customers knowing where their price floor is.

 

[WetEV]

It's well above average for what people pay for THAT kind of car. A Honda HRV, Mazda CX3, Nissan Rogue, etc can be had for around 20.
The Bolt will certainly require a buyer willing to pay a premium for driving electric.

Ah yes, and those ICEs will burn about 5000 gallons of gasoline over the 120,000 mile typical lifetime of the car. At what price of gasoline?

Two oil changes a year. Twenty or so in total. And so on.

If you are not paying a premium for buying an electric, it is a bargain.

 

[mihird]

It's well above average for what people pay for THAT kind of car. A Honda HRV, Mazda CX3, Nissan Rogue, etc can be had for around 20.
The Bolt will certainly require a buyer willing to pay a premium for driving electric.

Ah yes, and those ICEs will burn about 5000 gallons of gasoline over the 120,000 mile typical lifetime of the car. At what price of gasoline?

Two oil changes a year. Twenty or so in total. And so on.

If you are not paying a premium for buying an electric, it is a bargain.

Agree 100%.

I am a recent switch over from a Rogue to a Leaf as a daily commuter for my wife. I have been crunching the nos. for a few months before I made the decision to switch.

Factoring in gas prices and maintenance, $20,000-$25,000 ICEs have no chance over a $25-$30Kish 200 mile electric. The Total Cost of Ownership comes out way ahead on the EV vs. ICE over a period of 10 years/150,000 miles..

 

[LeftieBiker]

Factoring in gas prices and maintenance, $20,000-$25,000 ICEs have no chance over a $25-$30Kish 200 mile electric. The Total Cost of Ownership comes out way ahead on the EV vs. ICE over a period of 10 years/150,000 miles..

Given battery issues and typical length of ownership, it would make more sense to compare cost of ownership over 4 years, factoring in the respective costs of either reselling/rebuying or releasing. I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, but 150k miles definitely means at least one new battery pack for a leaf.

 

[mihird]

Factoring in gas prices and maintenance, $20,000-$25,000 ICEs have no chance over a $25-$30Kish 200 mile electric. The Total Cost of Ownership comes out way ahead on the EV vs. ICE over a period of 10 years/150,000 miles..

Given battery issues and typical length of ownership, it would make more sense to compare cost of ownership over 4 years, factoring in the respective costs of either reselling/rebuying or releasing. I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, but 150k miles definitely means at least one new battery pack for a leaf.

Correct..but not for the upcoming 60Kwh 200 mile range cars..the battery should last 150K miles, if not 200K (assuming you can live with 120-150 miles of range in the later half of the car's lifetime)...

Even if the battery is replaced ($5500) on the Leaf at every 100K miles, the math still comes out ahead compared to a gs burning 25mpg 4 cylinder/$25K ICE.

Total Cost of Ownership over 3-4 years, right now is more or less equal to the ICE, because of the steeper depreciation of the EVs.

I am expecting the depreciation curve and useful lifetime of the battery to be much improved with the 200 mile/60Kwh cars..

 

[rcm4453]

Factoring in gas prices and maintenance, $20,000-$25,000 ICEs have no chance over a $25-$30Kish 200 mile electric. The Total Cost of Ownership comes out way ahead on the EV vs. ICE over a period of 10 years/150,000 miles..

Given battery issues and typical length of ownership, it would make more sense to compare cost of ownership over 4 years, factoring in the respective costs of either reselling/rebuying or releasing. I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, but 150k miles definitely means at least one new battery pack for a leaf.

Leaf yes, but a BEV with a TMS such as the Bolt EV no. I highly doubt the Bolt EV will need a new battery at 150K miles.

 

[Valdemar]

Let's be realists, without the tax credit EVs make no economic sense at this moment .

 

[rcm4453]

Let's be realists, without the tax credit EVs make no economic sense at this moment .

They do when you buy used. Besides, what is the point of your statement? The tax credit is there so it doesn't matter what it would be if it wasn't. Costs will come down over time so when the credit does go away it won't matter anymore.

 

[GRA]

Comparing median income with average price is meaningless and misleading.

If I could find both I would. Median Family income is easily available, but searches for median new vehicle prices don't seem to exist on the web, only average prices. For instance: http://mediaroom.kbb.com/record-new-car-transaction-prices-reported-december-2015

If you've got a source for median vehicle prices, please do post it.

I do not have a good source for median vehicle prices. And as discounts from list price can be very significant, some of which KBB doesn't include in the reported "transaction" prices.

15 yard penalty for misuse of statistics and loss of down. :lol:

What was your point, anyway?

Was it maybe that the Bolt, being at near the average price, is well above the median price, and isn't truly affordable to the majority of people?

Exactly.

 

[GRA]

Let's be realists, without the tax credit EVs make no economic sense at this moment .

Agreed. I recently saw an article listing the ten-year (forget the mileage, but think it was at least 150k) operating and maintenance costs for least expensive cars to own, and several of them were well below the price of a battery replacement. ISTR the Prius headed the list, but it wasn't exclusively HEVs. Given the much greater capability of ICEs/HEVs, i.e. they can be your sole car, the economic argument just isn't there for Gen 1 BEVs. Gen 2, we'll see. IIRR, WetEV calculated that, with an ideal climate and low electricity prices in the PNW, his LEAF would cost him about $1,200 more over ten years than a Prius, which he was willing to pay for ideological reasons. Absent that, and with less favorable conditions, it's not even a contest.

 

[Valdemar]

The tax credit is there so it doesn't matter what it would be if it wasn't. Costs will come down over time so when the credit does go away it won't matter anymore.

It won't be there for Nissan and Tesla in a couple of years, unless it gets an extension. Will the costs come down to offset the disappearing credit in 2 years? I seriously doubt it.

 

[GRA]

The tax credit is there so it doesn't matter what it would be if it wasn't. Costs will come down over time so when the credit does go away it won't matter anymore.

It won't be there for Nissan and Tesla in a couple of years, unless it gets an extension. Will the costs come down to offset the disappearing credit in 2 years? I seriously doubt it.

I think they'll have to, as I expect we'll continue with divided government for at least the next two years and the credits won't get extended, and the companies which know they will be running out in the near future presumably have padded their MSRPs for now to give them room to drop prices later. Really, they'll have no choice if they wish to compete, barring a huge, sustained gas price spike.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

It's well above average for what people pay for THAT kind of car. A Honda HRV, Mazda CX3, Nissan Rogue, etc can be had for around 20.
The Bolt will certainly require a buyer willing to pay a premium for driving electric.

Ah yes, and those ICEs will burn about 5000 gallons of gasoline over the 120,000 mile typical lifetime of the car. At what price of gasoline?

Two oil changes a year. Twenty or so in total. And so on.

If you are not paying a premium for buying an electric, it is a bargain.

Our LEAF cost us more just in higher insurance premiums than it ever saved us in fuel costs. That's before you consider the higher depreciation/interest/opportunity cost associated with the higher acquisition cost, not to mention the replacement battery dark cloud looming.
It was fun though, and still cheaper than a lot of other "fun" cars... but certainly not the cheapest way to go down the road.

 

[Valdemar]

Our LEAF cost us more just in higher insurance premiums than it ever saved us in fuel costs. That's before you consider the higher depreciation/interest/opportunity cost associated with the higher acquisition cost, not to mention the replacement battery dark cloud looming.
It was fun though, and still cheaper than a lot of other "fun" cars... but certainly not the cheapest way to go down the road.

Yup, this sums everything up nicely. My Leaf may end up saving me money after all, but only because I managed to get a free battery.

 

[rcm4453]

The tax credit is there so it doesn't matter what it would be if it wasn't. Costs will come down over time so when the credit does go away it won't matter anymore.

It won't be there for Nissan and Tesla in a couple of years, unless it gets an extension. Will the costs come down to offset the disappearing credit in 2 years? I seriously doubt it.

The price will have to come down then otherwise they won't be able to move any cars. People don't just buy the most economical car anyway, otherwise everybody would be driving cheap cars like the Mitsubishi Mirage ($14k new). If you cross shop a BEV and a ICEV in the same price range the BEV will be the more economical choice with it's lower cost of ownership. I will say this applies to well built BEVs with a TMS, not so much the LEAF as it has battery degradation issues.

 

[garsh]

Let's be realists, without the tax credit EVs make no economic sense at this moment .

Agreed. But I think that the Tesla Model 3 is going to change that. It should compete with similarly-priced ICE vehicles w/o the tax credit (BMW 3-series, Audi A4).

 

[WetEV]

Let's be realists, without the tax credit EVs make no economic sense at this moment .

Agreed.

Disagree. Depends on future assumptions and personal details. Notice that the future is unknown. I doubt if the price of gasoline will stay at $2.65 for the next 10 years. Do you? It is about $2.70 now locally, and $4.15 in BC. Oh, and what exactly is the "comparable car"?

There are people in the PNW with seriously lower electric rates and/or seriously higher gasoline prices than me. Enough so they would be break even with current gasoline prices, when compared with a Honda Civic, the car I've chosen as "comparable", and even with the price I paid for a 2012 Leaf.

IIRR, WetEV calculated that, with an ideal climate and low electricity prices in the PNW, his LEAF would cost him about $1,200 more over ten years than a Prius, which he was willing to pay for ideological reasons. Absent that, and with less favorable conditions, it's not even a contest.

What I actually said:

At the current gasoline price ($2.65), and all the other assumptions, my spreadsheet says I don't break even. I'll spend about $1200 extra to have an electric over the life of the car (assumed to be 12 years). Call it $100 per year. I can afford that. If gasoline goes up, I might do rather better. I pay a yearly fee with my license tabs, and that fee is going up by $50 per year (I think July this year), which isn't in the spreadsheet. Every penny change in the price of gasoline is a roughly $40 swing in break even. And so on.

Note that I don't break even, not someone buying today would not break even. I paid more than the current real actual price (which is almost never MRSP!). Someone buying today could do better. Someone buying in 2011 would do worse. Someone in Abbotsford, BC would break even rather faster. Arizona, no. The "comparable car" wasn't stated to be a Prius (actually a Honda Civic). A Prius would be a very slightly tougher match for a comparable car. Err, and which exact Prius?

While I didn't think about this when buying the Leaf, the Leaf saves me time. Unplug and go! No trips out of my way to get gasoline.
The cost of my time isn't in the spreadsheet.

Frankly, the Leaf is just nicer to drive. It is similar in cost, within the margin of error. To put the motivation as only ideological is just wrong.