Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[Herm]

What does the GM Volt warranty say about warrantying battery capacity loss, if anything? The battery warranty for any electric vehicle is pretty much worthless without a capacity warranty...

They warrant 10.6kWh capacity for 8 years, if the battery fails they may replace it with a used one of appropriate condition for the age of the car.

 

[TomT]

Is that total capacity (from 16 when new) or useable capacity? If usable, that is not bad since the total amount of battery you can use is limited anyway...

What does the GM Volt warranty say about warrantying battery capacity loss, if anything? The battery warranty for any electric vehicle is pretty much worthless without a capacity warranty...

They warrant 10.6kWh capacity for 8 years, if the battery fails they may replace it with a used one of appropriate condition for the age of the car.

 

[thankyouOB]

yup. Nissan made a big deal in the roll out of asking those who reserved what length warranty would fit their expectations and make the deal.
now, it turns out the 8-year warranty is full of weasel words.
sad turn of events.

Look, it's not nice to say, "I told you so," and I really do feel for the folks having problems, but this is not a case of, "now, it turns out," or "sad turn of events." Go back and read this thread from more than a year ago: Battery warranty

You will see that a number of us were pointing out the obvious, and others were just sticking their heads in the sand.

Ray

i agree with you, Ray.
that doesnt change the fact that Nissan did do surveys repeatedly of those who reserved, and the issue of length of warranty was always highlighted. it was a shiny object to use to market to folks; because when they did issue a warranty, capacity was not covered.

 

[RickS]

I'm good for Wednesday, but I might be a little later than 5:30.

FYI if you haven't been to the Roosevelt it's a historic downtown house turned in to a bar so it doesn't look like a bar. It's black and barely has visible signage. It's basically diagonally across from the Ecotality parking lot North and West. If you decide to park at the bar be careful turning off of Roosevelt as it's narrow and there's a big dip you can bottom out on easily. The bar has lots of good stuff on tap from breweries such as Rogue, Stone, Four Peaks etc. and they are constantly rotating. There is a back room with a big table perhaps we can take over.

An update on my end, last night I did a 100% charge for the first time since having my data reset (or at least as far as I can tell). Granted I had done a freeway janut across town right before so the average was down, but it showed about 90 miles in Eco. I drove surface streets and at one point showed combined mileage at 95 miles, but it dropped back to just over 80 miles total after completing a ~30 mile trip. When I had done this same route months ago I definitely kept more miles than that. Still have the 12th bar though and I'm averaging ~5.2 mi/kwh since the dealer reset so it's not reporting the capacity still.

 

[camasleaf]

OK, one more for the list in the Phoenix area. My friend Tim, who is not on this forum, lost a capacity tick yesterday. He got his car in August of 2011.

How many miles?

 

[TomT]

About 13,000 he said.

OK, one more for the list in the Phoenix area. My friend Tim, who is not on this forum, lost a capacity tick yesterday. He got his car in August of 2011.

How many miles?

 

[surfingslovak]

Is that total capacity (from 16 when new) or useable capacity? If usable, that is not bad since the total amount of battery you can use is limited anyway...

What does the GM Volt warranty say about warrantying battery capacity loss, if anything? The battery warranty for any electric vehicle is pretty much worthless without a capacity warranty...

They warrant 10.6kWh capacity for 8 years, if the battery fails they may replace it with a used one of appropriate condition for the age of the car.

It's 10.6 kWh usable, which is what many Volt drivers track on their dash. From what I gathered, GM guarantees 70% capacity for 8 years. Don't recall if that 70% was based on total or usable kWh. The vehicle will supposedly expand the usable portion of the battery to counter degradation. It's been a while, and I could be easily wrong on this.

 

[shrink]

It's 10.6 kWh usable, which is what many Volt drivers track on their dash. From what I gathered, GM guarantees 70% capacity for 8 years. Don't recall if that 70% was based on total or usable kWh. The vehicle will supposedly expand the usable portion of the battery to counter degradation. It's been a while, and I could be easily wrong on this.

I've actually heard 10.4 and 10.6 usable on the Volt. I'm not sure what number is correct and I even own a Volt.

70% after 8 years is correct - I believe it is usable capacity.

I drove my Volt from Sedona to Phoenix today. It's mostly downhill so I did pretty well with a full charge. 54 miles electric followed by 41 mpg on the range extender.

 

[shrink]

...and my Blink said it took 13.8kWh from the wall to recharge the battery. I'm guessing some TMS was running + charging losses.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I do wonder if it is possible that Tony's loss is due more to relatively high average ambient temps... San Diego doesn't get super hot, but it's warm there pretty much year round. I think his loss was 10% in the first year if I remember correctly. I'm still inclined to think that shallow cycles in the middle of the pack are best but that high ambient average temps and high peaks account of the lions share of the losses we are seeing early on. I read a post on another forum that the issues seem to follow a patter of being below the 33rd parallel. there seems to be no clear pattern related to charging habits.

I considered using ~= to address the possibility that 2 x 50% charge cycles are less damaging than 1 x 100% charge cycle but some aren't familiar with ~= meaning approximately equal.

Doing 100% cycles all the time, i.e., charging to 100% and discharging to "turtle", is a great way to lose capacity. Just ask Tony Williams; his first LEAF (in temperate San Diego) was turtled repeatedly and is nearing a bar of capacity loss. You really can't equate shallow cycles with deep cycles as some of the above posts seem to imply. My impression is that you could do a fairly significant number of 50% cycles and still cause less degradation than a full, 100% cycle.

 

[kolmstead]

LEAF #257 lost a bar over the weekend. 14,278 miles, white, nineteen months of ownership, zero QC, always charged to 80% using an end timer. No signs of the dreaded '9-bar to 80%' symptoms. I knew it was coming; we had 110 degrees every day last week. One day the battery temp was 7 bars most of the way to work, 6 bars when I got there, and then 7 bars when I drove home. Car sits out in the sun every weekday. I use about 10 kWh per day, so the car charges between 1am and 4am, when things are coolest. Oh, and it's still running original firmware. Ridgecrest, CA. Noticeable decrease in range. Can't make the 83 mile trip to dealer any more.

 

[Herm]

Is that total capacity (from 16 when new) or useable capacity? If usable, that is not bad since the total amount of battery you can use is limited anyway...

Usable, but there was some talk that GM would gradually tap into the total reserve (6kWh) gradually to maintain the 40 miles of range.

 

[surfingslovak]

...and my Blink said it took 13.8kWh from the wall to recharge the battery. I'm guessing some TMS was running + charging losses.

Great photo, thanks for posting! Did you use 9.2 kWh on your trip? I looked it up and an older article on gm-volt.com said that 10.4 kWh was usable. A newer article says that it was 10.3, which will now go up to 10.8 kWh in the 2013 model year.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I do wonder if it is possible that Tony's loss is due more to relatively high average ambient temps...

George; its my personal opinion that it was caused by too many turtle events. that is why i have suspended all 100 mile attempts. i am just gonna drive it and let others do the experimentation

 

[EVDRIVER]

Is that total capacity (from 16 when new) or useable capacity? If usable, that is not bad since the total amount of battery you can use is limited anyway...

Usable, but there was some talk that GM would gradually tap into the total reserve (6kWh) gradually to maintain the 40 miles of range.

I believe the Volt pack is part of the emission system like the Prius and thus must be warrantied as such. The capacity buffer allows them to keep it in compliance and under warranty. This is not required on a LEAF.

 

[DaveEV]

LEAF #257 lost a bar over the weekend. 14,278 miles, white, nineteen months of ownership, zero QC, always charged to 80% using an end timer.

Major bummer. I do think you're the first in California - don't recall who else was aiming for that distinction. Certainly nothing more you could do in your situation to prolong battery life. Ridgecrest is just darn hot. Any reason you didn't have the firmware updated when you last visited the dealer?

I believe the Volt pack is part of the emission system like the Prius and thus must be warrantied as such. The capacity buffer allows them to keep it in compliance and under warranty. This is not required on a LEAF.

While the pack is part of the emission system like the Prius, maintaining full capacity over the life of the car (or at least during the warranty period of 10 years 150k miles in CARB states), is not a requirement. As long as emissions of the gasoline engine are not affected while it's running, no problem. So gradual capacity loss is not covered by warranty. Plug-in Prius is the same.

 

[Boomer23]

LEAF #257 lost a bar over the weekend. 14,278 miles, white, nineteen months of ownership, zero QC, always charged to 80% using an end timer. No signs of the dreaded '9-bar to 80%' symptoms. I knew it was coming; we had 110 degrees every day last week. One day the battery temp was 7 bars most of the way to work, 6 bars when I got there, and then 7 bars when I drove home. Car sits out in the sun every weekday. I use about 10 kWh per day, so the car charges between 1am and 4am, when things are coolest. Oh, and it's still running original firmware. Ridgecrest, CA. Noticeable decrease in range. Can't make the 83 mile trip to dealer any more.

Congratulations are probably inappropriate, but you are the first bar loss in CA. As you say, your hot Ridgecrest location is very likely a big factor.

At least the rest of us in So Cal can stop wondering who'll be first.

I have been wondering about the San Jose folks. I haven't seen any comments about range or Gid loss there, but SJ summer temps are often higher than in some So Cal cities. Leads me to think that year-round average temps are important, along with summer highs.

 

[Herm]

I believe the Volt pack is part of the emission system like the Prius and thus must be warrantied as such. The capacity buffer allows them to keep it in compliance and under warranty. This is not required on a LEAF.

You are right.. advantages of being a part-time BEV.

 

[kolmstead]

Hey, Boomer! I'd probably call it "first documented loss of a bar in CA". I'll bet that there are many people who have lost a bar and never even noticed it. I called Nissan and got a case number a few minutes ago. I wouldn't be all that concerned if it didn't appear that bars eleven and ten soon follow their lost brother.

Drees, the update didn't offer any advantages that I could use, and I hated the idea of 'hidden bars'. I was comfortable with the behavior of the DTE meter and didn't want it to change.

 

[RegGuheert]

Drees, the update didn't offer any advantages that I could use, and I hated the idea of 'hidden bars'. I was comfortable with the behavior of the DTE meter and didn't want it to change.

I'm wondering if this is why you never had "nine bars after charging to 80%" like others have seen.

BTW, sorry about the loss of the capacity bar!