Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[dhanson865]

One of the things they take note of in the yearly service, "inspection" is time spent at a high state of charge.

After 17,300 miles my 2015 is showing no signs of degradation and leaf spy showing 100% health and 66 AH. Hopefully it's not much less next year.

congrats for living somewhere cool. You'll never have to replace that battery unless you move several countries further south.

The climate helps but the changes they made to the battery from 2013 July built + leafs has certainly made a big difference.

Not at all. We have several 2013 and 2015 batteries in southern California and Arizona that have lost bars already at the same rate they would have if they were 2011 batteries.

If you sit in a cool climate and talk about improvements you are ignoring the issue that exists for those of us that live in a warmer climate. That doesn't make your statement any more accurate.

I'm sure there are improvements in instrumentation and other equipment in the newer cars. I'm also sure that changes to the battery pack didn't resolve the heat issue.

 

[Evoforce]

congrats for living somewhere cool. You'll never have to replace that battery unless you move several countries further south.

The climate helps but the changes they made to the battery from 2013 July built + leafs has certainly made a big difference.

Not at all. We have several 2013 and 2015 batteries in southern California and Arizona that have lost bars already at the same rate they would have if they were 2011 batteries.

If you sit in a cool climate and talk about improvements you are ignoring the issue that exists for those of us that live in a warmer climate. That doesn't make your statement any more accurate.

I'm sure there are improvements in instrumentation and other equipment in the newer cars. I'm also sure that changes to the battery pack didn't resolve the heat issue.

+1 The battery chemistry improvements that were stated to occur, were heat durability improvements. For the climate that I live in, there has been no improvement. I don't say that lightly as I was extremely hopeful and so much wanted it to be a factual improvement. Alas, it is not improved.

We love our cars and are enthusiasts! We do not like the rapid degradation and the black eye it will give us and prop up the EV naysayers. Very sad really... Is it still worth putting a third battery in each car to the tune of $6,100 each in 3.5 years? Maybe if the rest of the car(s) holds up as well as it has thus far... And they offer (used car) battery upgrade solutions (even 3rd party) to prop up all values and sustainability.

I am also banking on larger range and durability in the immediate future that will work in these cars. Unless Nissan gets in fast gear about cooling their batteries (or more durable somehow) and quickly moves to increase range to compete with other EV's, they may loose many who embraced them for having accomplished so much for getting these cars to market. They really are a nice cars and the look kind of grows on ya. Come on Nissan, you haven't completely lost me yet... Magic 8 ball, do I see a Bolt or a Model 3 in my future? (Reply hazy try again).

 

[o00scorpion00o]

The rate of degradation from July 2013 built cars is far less than that of 2011-2013 , and the chemistry change obviously impacts more than just heat resistance.

The U.K Taxi with 102,000 miles and under 10% loss in capacity and showing 12 capacity bars only proves this, 1,600 DC charges and 5,000 odd L2 charges. Maybe it would have lost less capacity with less fast charging, anyway there's no way the original battery would have done nearly this good.

There is also other U.K 2011-2013 Leafs built before July 2013 that lost their first capacity bar by 50,000 miles and admitted to using the DC charger a lot.

So the improvements must include cycle improvements as well as better heat resistance and maybe higher charging current capability.

So yes while the climate on this side of the Atlantic may be kinder to the Leaf battery the current Gen obviously has had improvements to the battery.

 

[powersurge]

I think that we (Leaf owners and potential owners) should stop trying to put lipstick on a pig and try to call it Miss America. In my situation, I waited from buying a Leaf until the time was right. People should not buy a Leaf if they live in the mountains, have a temperature over 90-95 in the summer, and drive less than 10,000 miles per year. Until this new technology evolves, it will have its limitations... I laughed when I was on Youtube and heard a woman from NORWAY that her range was lowered by the COLD!! No Crap! I could have predicted that one ...

 

[dhanson865]

The rate of degradation from July 2013 built cars is far less than that of 2011-2013 , and the chemistry change obviously impacts more than just heat resistance.

The U.K Taxi with 102,000 miles and under 10% loss in capacity and showing 12 capacity bars only proves this, 1,600 DC charges and 5,000 odd L2 charges. Maybe it would have lost less capacity with less fast charging, anyway there's no way the original battery would have done nearly this good.

There is also other U.K 2011-2013 Leafs built before July 2013 that lost their first capacity bar by 50,000 miles and admitted to using the DC charger a lot.

So the improvements must include cycle improvements as well as better heat resistance and maybe higher charging current capability.

So yes while the climate on this side of the Atlantic may be kinder to the Leaf battery the current Gen obviously has had improvements to the battery.

You seem to not understand that the UK is cooler than Arizona in the US. That is the only difference.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

The rate of degradation from July 2013 built cars is far less than that of 2011-2013 , and the chemistry change obviously impacts more than just heat resistance.

The U.K Taxi with 102,000 miles and under 10% loss in capacity and showing 12 capacity bars only proves this, 1,600 DC charges and 5,000 odd L2 charges. Maybe it would have lost less capacity with less fast charging, anyway there's no way the original battery would have done nearly this good.

There is also other U.K 2011-2013 Leafs built before July 2013 that lost their first capacity bar by 50,000 miles and admitted to using the DC charger a lot.

So the improvements must include cycle improvements as well as better heat resistance and maybe higher charging current capability.

So yes while the climate on this side of the Atlantic may be kinder to the Leaf battery the current Gen obviously has had improvements to the battery.

You seem to not understand that the UK is cooler than Arizona in the US. That is the only difference.

Do you think the current batter is exactly the same as the original ? There could be all sorts of changes we're not going to know about.

There is data now from the U.K to know that there is a difference to the battery that is more than simply improving heat resistance. It's rather obvious by the increased longevity.

 

[dhanson865]

The rate of degradation from July 2013 built cars is far less than that of 2011-2013 , and the chemistry change obviously impacts more than just heat resistance.

The U.K Taxi with 102,000 miles and under 10% loss in capacity and showing 12 capacity bars only proves this, 1,600 DC charges and 5,000 odd L2 charges. Maybe it would have lost less capacity with less fast charging, anyway there's no way the original battery would have done nearly this good.

There is also other U.K 2011-2013 Leafs built before July 2013 that lost their first capacity bar by 50,000 miles and admitted to using the DC charger a lot.

So the improvements must include cycle improvements as well as better heat resistance and maybe higher charging current capability.

So yes while the climate on this side of the Atlantic may be kinder to the Leaf battery the current Gen obviously has had improvements to the battery.

You seem to not understand that the UK is cooler than Arizona in the US. That is the only difference.

Do you think the current batter is exactly the same as the original ? There could be all sorts of changes we're not going to know about.

There is data now from the U.K to know that there is a difference to the battery that is more than simply improving heat resistance. It's rather obvious by the increased longevity.

It's really simple. We know several differences in the packs and the cars. But we also know from several users of the 2013 and 2015 cars here in the US that the packs degrade just as much as the 2011 and 2012 packs did.

Nothing you say about UK Leafs will change how the cars behave in the southern US.

You can say that there is an improvement in Leaf longevity in the UK but that isn't improvement for the Leaf in general. Preface your comments with a big disclaimer or stay in a UK only forum if you want but don't spam US threads about UK reliability without a disclaimer because your view is contrary to the data that applies here.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

You seem to not understand that the UK is cooler than Arizona in the US. That is the only difference.

Do you think the current batter is exactly the same as the original ? There could be all sorts of changes we're not going to know about.

There is data now from the U.K to know that there is a difference to the battery that is more than simply improving heat resistance. It's rather obvious by the increased longevity.

It's really simple. We know several differences in the packs and the cars. But we also know from several users of the 2013 and 2015 cars here in the US that the packs degrade just as much as the 2011 and 2012 packs did.

Nothing you say about UK Leafs will change how the cars behave in the southern US.

I'm not saying the climate doesn't impact degradation in the hot regions of the U.S, but that doesn't mean that the moderate climate in Ireland or the U.K or similar climates is the only reason for far better battery life as the evidence shows.

 

[JeremyW]

It wouldn't surprise me that Nissan did tweaks in the chemistry in an effort to help hot weather degradation but ended up only benefiting cooler climates.

Steve Marsh put 100,000 miles on his 2011 car and lost two bars by then (~20%) and I'd say the climate is as close to UK as you could probably get. Looks like he's up to 141k as of 5 months ago with 5 bars lost.

So.. knowing that, perhaps they did some tweaks that helped with cycle losses and less time-spent-at-high-temp losses.

 

[tkdbrusco]

I think there were some tweaks, but I'd be willing to bet by some on my readings and the anomalies that I've found, that most of the improvements have arose from them actually increasing the size of the pack and still calling it a 24kwh pack. By my math and reserve capacity calculations at the top and bottom, there's a 25kwh pack in there. They've simply freed up that extra kWh and eaten away at it for degradation.

 

[Valdemar]

One kWh is barely enough to slow down the apparent capacity loss in places like Arizona. The heat eats through 8-10% of capacity per year in hot places, so that single kwh would last you only about 6 months. Did they really think it was going to help?

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Maybe they have improved heat resistance slightly, even a small change to the chemistry can make a big difference.

Lack of proper thermal management was a mistake for hot climates, and if anyone has seen the 60 Kwh pack , there is still no thermal management for leaf II.

I can see Bolt sales kill the leaf in the U.S, especially the hot climates until the 60 Kwh leaf arrives at least, even then, the Bolt will be far more fun. 200 HP, 0-60 less than 7 seconds.

The only real effect to the leaf in cooler climates especially this time of the year is reduced range by the fact the battery can't take the same Kwh and increased charger times at the DC charger. The 30 Kwh probably suffers the same but at least it charges faster than the 24 Kwh regardless.

 

[Jefe]

One kWh is barely enough to slow down the apparent capacity loss in places like Arizona. The heat eats through 8-10% of capacity per year in hot places, so that single kwh would last you only about 6 months. Did they really think it was going to help?

Maybe it's less about having a buffer for degradation as having a buffer to prevent full charging. If they limit full charge to 22Kwh on the 24, and increased it to a 25, then a 100% charge leaves the uncharged capacity higher.

This might be why they also dropped the 80% charge setting . 1kwh added to a 24kwh pack is close to a 5% capacity increase and 25 was a guesstimate. It coudl be that they built enough new capacity into the battery so that a 100% charge is really an 80% charge of the old battery.

 

[Valdemar]

One kWh is barely enough to slow down the apparent capacity loss in places like Arizona. The heat eats through 8-10% of capacity per year in hot places, so that single kwh would last you only about 6 months. Did they really think it was going to help?

Maybe it's less about having a buffer for degradation as having a buffer to prevent full charging. If they limit full charge to 22Kwh on the 24, and increased it to a 25, then a 100% charge leaves the uncharged capacity higher.

This might be why they also dropped the 80% charge setting . 1kwh added to a 24kwh pack is close to a 5% capacity increase and 25 was a guesstimate. It coudl be that they built enough new capacity into the battery so that a 100% charge is really an 80% charge of the old battery.

Maybe. 80% charging didn't prove to be very effective for preventing capacity loss.

 

[tkdbrusco]

I will say that I notice this buffer changing based on outside temps, which is really strange. For example, back in August, I took a reading at 10% remaining and my SOC was at 15.2% in the app, but when I took the same reading last week, it was at 19%, so somehow the same 10% remaining charge had more hidden capacity in the winter than in the summer? It could be possible that the BMS moves this hidden capacity to the bottom end in the winter, and the top end in the summer. This way in the summer they are able to make a 100% charge actually be something like 91% and in the winter, if you are at turtle, you're actually at 9%. This kind of makes sense when you think about it.

 

[Evoforce]

I will say that I notice this buffer changing based on outside temps, which is really strange. For example, back in August, I took a reading at 10% remaining and my SOC was at 15.2% in the app, but when I took the same reading last week, it was at 19%, so somehow the same 10% remaining charge had more hidden capacity in the winter than in the summer? It could be possible that the BMS moves this hidden capacity to the bottom end in the winter, and the top end in the summer. This way in the summer they are able to make a 100% charge actually be something like 91% and in the winter, if you are at turtle, you're actually at 9%. This kind of makes sense when you think about it.

Yes, my batteries take slighty more charge in the winter than the summer, but if I remember right, it is only a 2-3% difference. 87-89% in the summer to 92% ish winter. So based on capacity loss in hot/cold climates I wonder if it correlates in any way to loosing bars more rapidly in hotter climates.

 

[DaveEV]

Moderators note: Please continue topics other than '11-12 capacity loss in the appropriate thread...

 

[Lambtron]

Car Purchased 04/04/15 @ 18500 miles w/ 12 Bars indicated. car built 7/11. #6977.
No Spyleaf info available at the time.

Lost first bar 07/05/15. 21455 mi.
207 gids
90.8% soc (100%)
51.1 AHr
16 kWh
77% SOH
59.26% Hx
393.90 V

Lost second bar 07/09/15. 21580 mi.
207 gids
91.3% soc (100%)
50.82 AHr
16 kWh
77% SOH
58.62% Hx
393.81 V

Lost third bar 01/13/16. 26495 mi.
198 gids
95.6% soc (100%)
46.35 AHr
16 kWh
70% SOH
49.91% Hx
393.4 V

 

[fooljoe]

Where did you buy the car? It seems you were pretty clearly defrauded by a dealer who reset the BMS to hide capacity degradation. Most likely the car was previously at 10 bars before the reset. There's NO way that two bars would drop within a couple of days of each other like that. You should explore legal recourse against the seller, and hopefully you didn't pay too much! Otherwise if you're "lucky" the degradation will be bad enough to get you a new battery before the warranty expires in July.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Where did you buy the car? It seems you were pretty clearly defrauded by a dealer who reset the BMS to hide capacity degradation. Most likely the car was previously at 10 bars before the reset. There's NO way that two bars would drop within a couple of days of each other like that. You should explore legal recourse against the seller, and hopefully you didn't pay too much! Otherwise if you're "lucky" the degradation will be bad enough to get you a new battery before the warranty expires in July.

I concurn, this wreaks of fraud. Even if the car works for you as-is, you should pursue legal recourse. Resetting the BMS is a dangerous trend and can have a huge detrimental effect to the EV in general. We, as a community, need to nip it in the bug.

If too many people get burned by this, it will give EVs a bad name. Which could set back the industry, possibly kill it.