Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[smkettner]

charging your car to full and leaving it up to 12 hours I have to say is not a risk worth worrying about.

I have wondered about the cumulative effect.

30 minutes per day is 180 hours per year at 100%.
3 hours per day is 1095 hours per year at 100%.

Depends on if degradation is linear at 100% or if it increases in rate with time.

 

[DesertDenizen]

I apologize, I was not precise. I did not mean I literally stop charging and then drive off immediately, just that it is not sitting for long periods at 80% or 100%. Typically it has not been charging for a few hours before use.

 

[uwskier20]

I set the end timer for my projected departure time, which helps to avoid sitting around at high SOC routinely.

 

[DaveEV]

this is adding more heat. not allowing any cooling after the charging event. and all done based on our notion that leaving the car fully charged for extended periods of time is bad which really has not been proven.

the heat issue I think we can say is a certainty. charging your car to full and leaving it up to 12 hours I have to say is not a risk worth worrying about.

Rate of capacity loss at high SOC is definitely a factor. To say that time spent at high SOC is not proven goes against every single study on lithium battery life study ever done. It goes against Nissan's recommendation to store the battery in "long-life" mode and goes against their recommendation to avoid leaving the car sit fully charged for long periods of time.

L2 charging does not create significant heat in the battery pack - not more than a couple degrees in my experience.

Perhaps in cold Seattle there's not much noticeable difference in storing a battery for 12 hours at 100% daily - but in Arizona it's going to be significant and you won't see any significant difference in battery temperatures.

 

[nosuchthing]

I think he may get one. He dropped the second bar after 7k miles, which is around 4 months at his avg. miles/month. He'll be going deeper into the battery from now on, and he should hit summer before he hits 60k. It's likely going to be close, though.

I do have an extended warranty 5 years/100k miles. I wonder now if it covers TB as well.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

this is adding more heat. not allowing any cooling after the charging event. and all done based on our notion that leaving the car fully charged for extended periods of time is bad which really has not been proven.

the heat issue I think we can say is a certainty. charging your car to full and leaving it up to 12 hours I have to say is not a risk worth worrying about.

Rate of capacity loss at high SOC is definitely a factor. To say that time spent at high SOC is not proven goes against every single study on lithium battery life study ever done. It goes against Nissan's recommendation to store the battery in "long-life" mode and goes against their recommendation to avoid leaving the car sit fully charged for long periods of time.

L2 charging does not create significant heat in the battery pack - not more than a couple degrees in my experience.

Perhaps in cold Seattle there's not much noticeable difference in storing a battery for 12 hours at 100% daily - but in Arizona it's going to be significant and you won't see any significant difference in battery temperatures.

unless degradation from high SOC is accelerated with temperature then I have to say that i would not worry about high SOC as much as higher temperatures in the battery. now the temperatures being in the mid 80's at 2 am means that any appreciable cooling of the pack wont really happen at any time except maybe during Winter. now there is a laundry list of don't as far as batteries go but not everything on the list carries equal weight. as far as your concerns over these studies showing degradation for packs at high SOC for extended periods of time, I think the period of time we are looking at does not apply to a car driven daily. charge it and leave it for 2-3 days and ya, we may have a problem... a few hours??

 

[Cheezmo]

Not sure if this qualifies as early, but...

Lost a bar after 8.8k miles, 19 months.

Leaf lives in Plano, TX and was subjected to some early fast charging experiments (really just one day where I did 5 DC charges but didn't hit temperature limits on battery). Survived 2 very hot Dallas summers. Always charged to 80%, except just before long trips.

I don't consider it to be an "early" loss, but evidence that "time in the sun" is more of a factor than mileage.

It is leased and should serve just fine as a high school commuter for the next 1.5 years.

 

[dhanson865]

Lost my first bar yesterday, Jan 2. (Who loses a bar in January?) 6,813 miles and just shy of one year of ownership. I never QC and do 'just in time' charging as my schedule is predictable. Usually to 80%; occasionally to 100% but always just before I am about to leave. So glad it is just a two year lease.

I tossed an entry in the one bar section for you, manufacturing date is blank but a pretty detailed entry as is.

Now we just need a Feb loser and there will be an entry in for every possible month.

September 37
October 9
November 1
December 2
Jan 1
Feb 0
March 1
April 6
May 28

June 51 (+ several with no date that are likely in Jun based on order of entry)
July 50 (+ several with no date that are likely in July based on order of entry)
Aug 59 (+ several with no date that are likely in Aug based on order of entry

 

[DesertDenizen]

Lost my first bar yesterday, Jan 2. (Who loses a bar in January?) 6,813 miles and just shy of one year of ownership. I never QC and do 'just in time' charging as my schedule is predictable. Usually to 80%; occasionally to 100% but always just before I am about to leave. So glad it is just a two year lease.

I tossed an entry in the one bar section for you, manufacturing date is blank but a pretty detailed entry as is.

Now we just need a Feb loser and there will be an entry in for every possible month.

September 37
October 9
November 1
December 2
Jan 1
Feb 0
March 1
April 6
May 28

June tons
July even more
Aug something like that

Thanks! I wasn't sure how to post on wiki. The manufacture date is 7/12.

 

[smkettner]

Tough to follow the wiki on bars lost as the progression seems broken on most reports.
I would like to see a single car with the 1, 2, 3, 4 bars lost in one row with months and miles.
The Fontana vehicle with 4 bars lost seems most similar to mine but I don't see the earlier points of loss.
Oh well :|

 

[mwalsh]

Tough to follow the wiki on bars lost as the progression seems broken on most reports.
I would like to see a single car with the 1, 2, 3, 4 bars lost in one row with months and miles.
The Fontana vehicle with 4 bars lost seems most similar to mine but I don't see the earlier points of loss.
Oh well :|

I've thought that too. Actually, seeing it both ways has some benefit. Perhaps a second (new) section, outlined the way you suggest?

 

[jrreno]

Lost our first bar this week, down to 11.

 

[dhanson865]

Tough to follow the wiki on bars lost as the progression seems broken on most reports.
I would like to see a single car with the 1, 2, 3, 4 bars lost in one row with months and miles.
The Fontana vehicle with 4 bars lost seems most similar to mine but I don't see the earlier points of loss.
Oh well :|

It is a good idea to show it per car in addition to totals by bars lost but I don't think it would be easy to read on a single line of text. Better to have a separate block table for each 4 bar loser to make it easier to read.

I'll try a quick data dive to see if I can find some examples. OK, here are seven of the ten cars that are in the 4 bars lost category. The other three didn't have enough info to bother.


Car 613 cyellen Phoenix, AZ
4 bars lost at 29 months / 18,942 miles
3 bars lost at 27 months / 17,500 miles
2 bars lost at 16 months / 11,558 miles
1 bar lost at 14 months / 10,200 miles

Car 7837 phxsmiley Chandler, AZ
4 bars lost at 23 months / 28,700 miles
3 bars lost at 21 months / 26,797 miles
2 bars lost at 11 months / 15,868 miles
1 bar lost at 10 months / 13,745 miles

Car 1024 mark1313 Phoenix, AZ
4 bars lost at 26 months / unknown miles
3 bars lost at 26 months / unknown miles
2 bars lost at 13 months / 16,500 miles
1 bar lost at 12 months / 15,700 miles

Car 185 turbo2ltr Phoenix, AZ
4 bars lost at 29 months / 23,167 miles
3 bars lost at 28 months / 22,800 miles
2 bars lost at 16 months / 14,000 miles
1 bar lost at 15 months / 13,000 miles

Car 493 jhm614 Arlington, TX
4 bars lost at 27 months / 43,520 miles
3 bars lost at 26 months / 41,792 miles
2 bars lost at 14 months / 25,000 miles
1 bar lost at 12 months / unknown miles (the wiki table showed the same months and miles for this one as the two bar, I modified the months and didn't change the miles as I don't know what to change it to)

Car 5080 gk1 Chandler, AZ
4 bars lost at 22 months / 18,850 miles
3 bars lost at 14 months / 11,800 miles
2 bars lost at 12 months / 10,500 miles
1 bar lost at 4 months / 3,500 miles

Car 3494 Scott Yarosh Phoenix, AZ
4 bars lost at 14 months / 28,190 miles
3 bars lost at 13 months / 25,870 miles
2 bars lost at 12 months / 23,800 miles
1 bar lost at 10 months / 20,000 miles

 

[dhanson865]

JasonT's car is on the table minus the vin in several places Can piece it together as

683 jasonT Tuscon, AZ
4 bars lost at 27 months / 53,600 miles
3 bars lost at 25 months / 50.600 miles
2 bars lost at 17 months / 32,500 miles
1 bar lost at 15 months / 25,500 miles

I added the vin to the 4 bar entry, not in the mood to fight the longer 3 bar and 2 bar tables.


That leaves MH and Gotmyleaf as the two on the 4 bar loser list that we don't have enough data to fill out a proper block for.

 

[smkettner]

These examples really show the information vs just data and a story. JMHO.
Interesting how fast that 4th bar goes.

Really wanted to see the sequence in a cooler area but this is great.
Thanks for the effort

In the heat it looks like that first bar gone is likely more than half way to a new battery.
I wonder how that will play out in cooler climates.

 

[mwalsh]

I do see a pattern - time elapsed for most of these Phoenix cars between the loss of bar one and bar two is a couple of months; then there is a period of about 10-12 months before the loss of bar three; and another couple of months before the loss of bar four.

It would be interesting to do a comparison of SoCal cars, not dissimilar to my own, to see what the time period was between the loss of bar one and bar two, which for me was a little over 3 months. Unfortunately, we only have one report of a car outside the states of AZ and TX with more than two bars lost, and a) he was probably an outlier, being as he's from Fontana, CA, and b) he only reported the loss of bar four. So we can't gauge a time period estimate for any losses beyond the second.

 

[dhanson865]

These examples really show the information vs just data and a story. JMHO.
Interesting how fast that 4th bar goes.

Really wanted to see the sequence in a cooler area but this is great.
Thanks for the effort

In the heat it looks like that first bar gone is likely more than half way to a new battery.
I wonder how that will play out in cooler climates.

well Arlington, TX isn't on the Aging factor list but I'm thinking Bakersfield, CA is close enough to that. Darn no bakersfield in the loss tables. The only Fresno is in the 1 bar lost section. Best data we have would be the ones near Dallas, TX

Car 493 jhm614 Arlington, TX
4 bars lost at 27 months / 43,520 miles
3 bars lost at 26 months / 41,792 miles
2 bars lost at 14 months / 25,000 miles
1 bar lost at 12 months / unknown miles

Car 4094 Pipcecil AKA Nathan Drozd Midlothian, TX
4 bars lost at months / miles
3 bars lost at 27 months / 44,733 miles
2 bars lost at 14 months / 23,652 miles
1 bar lost at 12 months / 20,200 miles

gotta think Pipcecil should be losing 4th bar any day now if he hasn't already had the battery replaced or sold the car.

Anything closer to your climate is still on 2 bars lost so it'll be a few months until we fill out the 3 bar section with California losers.

 

[mwalsh]

Best data we have would be the ones near Dallas, TX

Car 493 jhm614 Arlington, TX
4 bars lost at 27 months / 43,520 miles
3 bars lost at 26 months / 41,792 miles
2 bars lost at 14 months / 25,000 miles
1 bar lost at 12 months / unknown miles

Car 4094 Pipcecil AKA Nathan Drozd Midlothian, TX
4 bars lost at months / miles
3 bars lost at 27 months / 44,733 miles
2 bars lost at 14 months / 23,652 miles
1 bar lost at 12 months / 20,200 miles

More or less the same pattern as for Phoenix.

 

[dhanson865]

Best data we have would be the ones near Dallas, TX

Car 493 jhm614 Arlington, TX
4 bars lost at 27 months / 43,520 miles
3 bars lost at 26 months / 41,792 miles
2 bars lost at 14 months / 25,000 miles
1 bar lost at 12 months / unknown miles

More or less the same pattern as for Phoenix.

As long as you ignore the Phoenix car that lost 4 bars in 14 months and 28,190 miles.

I think we both agree that we need to wait for spring/summer to get some California 3 bar losers on the list. Maybe April or May but for sure in June we should see some California 3 bar losers. Anything from Van Nuys to San Diego would be in a range closer to my climate battery wise (I get rain year round but the temps put me similar to some California cities).

 

[jhm614]

I do see a pattern - time elapsed for most of these Phoenix cars between the loss of bar one and bar two is a couple of months; then there is a period of about 10-12 months before the loss of bar three; and another couple of months before the loss of bar four.

Best data we have would be the ones near Dallas, TX
Car 493 jhm614 Arlington, TX
4 bars lost at 27 months / 43,520 miles
3 bars lost at 26 months / 41,792 miles
2 bars lost at 14 months / 25,000 miles
1 bar lost at 12 months / unknown miles

I think short interval between bars 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 relate to summer months. If so, it might be instructive to look at the month when the loss occurred.

4 bar - late June 2013
3 bar - May 2013
2 bar - early july 2012
1 bar - mid May 2012