Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[EdmondLeaf]

Nissan Leaf Facebook - Debbie Cavalli Massey from near Los Angeles, CA shared this picture with 11 CB
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151162358464255&set=o.141137487795&type=1&ref=nf

 

[opossum]

Scott was charged $691.13 for lease early termination. But the good news is that he spoke to NNA customer dispute resolution Wednesday afternoon and they said they would refund the charge.

 

[09Bamb00]

oh well, I shan't have any bars by year's end...

Leased car end of May 012.

After second week, heat index went to six bars and stayed there. Charged to 100% twice a day five days a week for 50 mile one way commute as I couldn't make it home without as it required seven bars each way. Yes, all highway average speed 68-70 most days with AC and lights because it was raining. Eight days I charged three times because I was travelling around 120miles (those days heat index to 7 bars). Over night charge L1, work charge L2.

Other two days charged to 100% once a day with one hour charge in middle (those were my beach days ) Over night charge L1, beach charge L2.

Did that until the middle of August. Started new commute which only requires charging to 80% L2 overnight (2am-6am) now I have 240v charger at home. Average speed 40. Still at 6 bars.

Someone said that the bars wouldn't go down to 5 until the average temperatures were under 76F.

However, I'm enjoying being part of the "bleeding edge" of EV technology and driving like I mean it.

 

[RegGuheert]

Scott was charged $691.13 for lease early termination. But the good news is that he spoke to NNA customer dispute resolution Wednesday afternoon and they said they would refund the charge.

That's good to hear! Thanks for the update!

 

[smkettner]

Scott was charged $691.13 for lease early termination. But the good news is that he spoke to NNA customer dispute resolution Wednesday afternoon and they said they would refund the charge.

That sounds like real action from Nissan. I would speculate more is coming by next Spring when the new battery production is in full swing.

 

[TonyWilliams]

what i wont conjecture on is how much, if any of that temporary loss will become permanent

We tested cars at about 80F.... they didn't do so well. The degradation is permanent.

 

[ewodraska]

Full quote:

"Charge to 100% maybe twice a month, the rest of the time charge to 80%. I did try to baby my battery this summer by keeping the max SOC to 7 bars."


Meaning the charge to 80% is interrupted at 7 bars, rather than left to go to 10 (if I'm interpreting the sentence properly).

I do the same thing. Set the timer to 80% and pull the plug when the charge level is at 8 bars. It allows me to keep the average SOC about 4 bars across the entire 24-hour day, and, since I use just-in-time charging, the SOC is only above 6 bars for a couple of hours each day. About half the day, the SOC on my battery is only 2 or 3 bars.

Yes. Set my end timer to around an hour before I leave for work and that gives me the right amount of charge for the day. I usually get home with about 3 bars left.

 

[LEAFer]

I know the chemistry is not comparable. I know lots of other "stuff" is different. But just a piece of information to be considered: In a Tesla Roadster when charging using 240V vs. 120V (ignore efficiency differences) with a 12amp pilot signal -- the 120V charging when completed and settled, will give you a slightly higher number of "Ideal Miles". Sometimes as much as 4-5% more. To apply this (if there's a similar effect/BMS operation in LEAF) here ... think of the GID # as analogous to the Roadster's "Ideal Miles". My guess is that the BMS has a smaller increment of power (at 120V) to work with as it tapers the charge current near the end-of-charge. Kind of like having a more accurate (fine) tool to "finish it off" ...

HTH

 

[planet4ever]

Charged to 100% twice a day five days a week for 50 mile one way commute as I couldn't make it home without as it required seven bars each way.

Can you explain that statement, please? It's really confusing me. I think you are saying that you used 7 charge bars for a 50 mile commute, which is darn good. In fact it's downright amazing if you were traveling 68-70. And if you could make 50 miles on 7 charge bars, then why in the world would you need to charge to 100% twice a day?

Based on Tony's chart (and a fairly new battery) I would expect you to have used about 10 charge bars each way at the speed you were traveling. That amounts to about 70% of the battery capacity, or 140% round trip. If you had charged to 80% twice a day, it sounds like you might have gotten down close to VLBW at the end of each trip, which is pushing it. But what if you had charged to 100% overnight (with an end-only timer) and 80% during the day? I would think you would rarely if ever have even gotten the first LBW warning on the way home, and never on the way to work.

Or, of course, you could have SLOWED DOWN!

I realize from the rest of your post that it's all water over the bridge now. I'm glad you have a shorter commute.

Ray

 

[DesertDenizen]

I don’t wanna to be in this club!
I lost my first capacity bar today. Only 6,771 miles. Manufactured 6/21/2011, took ownership 7/25/2011. I charge to 80%, never did a QC and charged to 100% exactly three times. The 100% charges were done just before I drove so the car spent no time sitting with a full charge. Never drove below 2 SOC bars. Received all 5 stars at my first annual, which was on 7/25/2012. I only charge every other day or so. I start to charge at 6 in the morning and usually leave around 9 so my Leaf doesn’t even spend much time at 80% charge. My Leaf has spent 90-95% of its time between 3 and 8 SOC bars. My long term average is 5.7 m/kwh and I drive on the frontage roads, not the highway, so I never exceed 45 mph. Exclusively in Eco. It is parked under a carport. I am out in the desert so there is no blacktop or concrete, just dirt. Tucson averages about 6 degrees cooler than Phoenix. Summer temp bars are usually 6, I have driven (but not charged) with 7 temp bars for short durations, but not many times. My new case # is 9497015.

 

[tcherniaev]

I don’t wanna to be in this club!
I lost my first capacity bar today. Only 6,771 miles. Manufactured 6/21/2011, took ownership 7/25/2011. I charge to 80%, never did a QC and charged to 100% exactly three times. The 100% charges were done just before I drove so the car spent no time sitting with a full charge. Never drove below 2 SOC bars. Received all 5 stars at my first annual, which was on 7/25/2012. I only charge every other day or so. I start to charge at 6 in the morning and usually leave around 9 so my Leaf doesn’t even spend much time at 80% charge. My Leaf has spent 90-95% of its time between 3 and 8 SOC bars. My long term average is 5.7 m/kwh and I drive on the frontage roads, not the highway, so I never exceed 45 mph. Exclusively in Eco. It is parked under a carport. I am out in the desert so there is no blacktop or concrete, just dirt. Tucson averages about 6 degrees cooler than Phoenix. Summer temp bars are usually 6, I have driven (but not charged) with 7 temp bars for short durations, but not many times. My case # is 8997717.

I think that this post goes to show that temperature matters a lot more when it comes to battery capacity loss than anything else we do. Just to compare, I live in somewhat cooler climate (Salt Lake City), and I have 10k miles with no indication of capacity loss. I always charge to 100%, drive it to 5-6 miles of range left several times per week, leave it at 100% charged for days at a time, charge it from 95% to 100% every now and then, etc.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Dennis sorry to hear, I wonder what more can be done to prevent CB loss in AZ?

 

[DesertDenizen]

Dennis sorry to hear, I wonder what more can be done to prevent CB loss in AZ?

Thanks, I thought I was doing everything possible to care for the battery pack. It appears tcherniaev is correct, in this climate driver behavior is all for naught.

Dennis

 

[RegGuheert]

Dennis sorry to hear, I wonder what more can be done to prevent CB loss in AZ?

Thanks, I thought I was doing everything possible to care for the battery pack. It appears tcherniaev is correct, in this climate driver behavior is all for naught.

Dennis

Yes, low miles, SOC kept in the middle of the range, carport charging, ECO mode at low speeds. All of these are best practices as far as I can tell. Our LEAF was built about one week before yours, but the dealer kept it charged up to 100% for six months over the winter and we still have not yet seen any of the telltale signs of losing a bar. Our miles are only about 5000, however.

It appears that part of your lost bar is due to instrumentation inaccuracies. Hopefully that is most of it!

 

[Herm]

Thanks, I thought I was doing everything possible to care for the battery pack. It appears tcherniaev is correct, in this climate driver behavior is all for naught.
Dennis

Terrible news

 

[CHLPatent]

This just in:
Nissan Suggests Leaf Battery-Capacity Loss Due To High Miles: Exclusive

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1079343_nissan-suggests-leaf-battery-capacity-loss-due-to-high-miles-exclusive" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sep 22, 2012

Brief excerpt - see link for whole article: "It's been a few months now since reports of losses in battery capacity in Nissan Leaf electric cars began to filter out of Arizona.
Owners have complained to Nissan's Consumer Affairs group and written hundreds of posts on owner forums. In July, Nissan Americas took seven different Leafs in for a complete assessment by the technical unit at its Arizona Testing Center....Mark Perry, Nissan North America’s product planning and advanced technology director, discussed the company's findings exclusively with Green Car Reports. 19,000 miles or more The common thread among the seven Leafs from Arizona, Perry said, was that all of them had covered much higher mileage than the 12,500 miles Nissan used to estimate the rate of battery capacity loss over time...."

 

[CHLPatent]

See also: http://www.casteyanqui.com/ev/capacity_kerfuffle/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brief excerpt, see link for whole analysis: "AZ Leaf Capacity Kerfuffle: Much Ado About Nothing? September 21, 2012
Mark D Larsen * Extrapolated from Nissan Technical Bulletin NTB11-076a: Nissan LEAF Range Estimates at 4 Miles-per-kWh...You’ll have to forgive me, but I wonder if these owners have actually looked at their own test data, for the results clearly do not substantiate the sweeping claims they continue to make with mere anecdotes. I purport that perhaps apologies to Nissan might be in order for the accusations of being "in complete denial" and committing "outright fraud." As a matter of fact, I think that those apologies should also be given ample air time to the general public, because the news coverage to date has sullied Nissan’s reputation and likely contributed to the recent slow down in Leaf sales. Consider, for example, that Time Magazine recently published an article questioning if the Leaf is a flop, despite the fact that it won the 2011 World Car of the Year award. When I read stories like that, I can well imagine the petrolpushers and their sockpuppet naysayers rubbing their hands with glee, for public witch hunts like these not only harm the particular vehicle in question, but also the EV movement in general...."

 

[charge]

From Mark Perry's response...

As a sprawling suburban city, Phoenix also requires a higher proportion of travel at freeway speeds, with relatively less time spent in low-speed urban stop-and-go traffic.


This is a new one on me. I don't recall any warnings about a higher percentage of highway v. city driving????

 

[CHLPatent]

Well, they DO say highway speeds affect range due to wind resistance... http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/range?next=ev_micro.section_nav" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Speed
Higher speeds require more energy to overcome air resistance.

Tip: Drive at constant, moderate speeds. Smooth acceleration and deceleration can extend your range.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I don't feel that these new found revelations will generate much good will, or new buyers.