Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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I knew my LEAF would degrade as well and have a 64 mile RT commute that taxes the LEAFs winter range (we have about 10 miles to spare)

but I was also counting on public charging to "fill the gaps" as it were but I knew it would take time so thinking I have probably at least 2-3 years before an estimated 15% degradation makes the long commute a challenge I was not worried about because i thought my bases were being covered...

ok, its 20 months and 2 days later and Bingo. Centrailia QC 30 miles away, Tumwater QC 6 miles away. I am covered just as I had planned. Hopefully much more to follow.

so now we come back to AZ, TX and whoever. as i understand it, the public charging network has been a very slow roll out and in my mind, unless its in the employee parking lot (my SO wont walk a block to plug in!) its not an option unless its real quick. so a large contributing factor is going to be lack of recharge options. On the Centrailia trip, the QC is one exit before the destination exit but it is easy freeway access. she works 10 hour shifts so is very loath to stopping for any extended to charge. so I did a personal test to see exactly what was needed and determined that 10 minutes (which only allows just about 6 minutes to charge) detour from time off freeway to back on was more than enough.

now, that is a guess since its not cold and will rerun test when cold with heat blasting away and all that stuff.

but i think the VERY LEAST Nissan can do while AZ owners are in limbo is pick up the charging bill. put out THEIR OWN QC network (Tesla is doing it) in the affected areas (better if it was all areas)

this allows current affected owners so options to cover their commutes, maintains some customer loyalty to the technology and builds interest for future LEAF buyers.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
but i think the VERY LEAST Nissan can do while AZ owners are in limbo is pick up the charging bill.
Dave, I love you!!! :D

The EVSEs are *finally* rolling out in decent numbers in the Phoenix and Tucson metro areas. The numbers still fall *far* short of what Blink said would be in place by the end of *last* year, but it's getting better. I think the Phoenix area is north of 300 units now (granted, most installations have at least 2 EVSEs). Azdre and I didn't expect to use the public stations too much (out of necessity, anyway). But with the dropping range, the L2 and L3 stations truly are crutches now. The killer is just the $1/hour and $2/hour fees Blink is charging. At the pathetic 3.3 kw rate the Leaf charges at, it makes it cheaper to park the car and take the motorcycle or gas car. Given the shaftings we've received from Nissan *and* Blink/Ecotality in the last 12 months, out of principle I'll sleep in my car overnight while plugged into a PlugShare free 120V outlet before I pay for a Blink L2 (except for Saturday's range test).
 
opossum said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
but i think the VERY LEAST Nissan can do while AZ owners are in limbo is pick up the charging bill.
Dave, I love you!!! :D

The EVSEs are *finally* rolling out in decent numbers in the Phoenix and Tucson metro areas. The numbers still fall *far* short of what Blink said would be in place by the end of *last* year, but it's getting better. I think the Phoenix area is north of 300 units now (granted, most installations have at least 2 EVSEs). Azdre and I didn't expect to use the public stations too much (out of necessity, anyway). But with the dropping range, the L2 and L3 stations truly are crutches now. The killer is just the $1/hour and $2/hour fees Blink is charging. At the pathetic 3.3 kw rate the Leaf charges at, it makes it cheaper to park the car and take the motorcycle or gas car. Given the shaftings we've received from Nissan *and* Blink/Ecotality in the last 12 months, out of principle I'll sleep in my car overnight while plugged into a PlugShare free 120V outlet before I pay for a Blink L2 (except for Saturday's range test).

I decided on the LEAF with the expectations that public charging would be a crutch and why not? gas stations are crutches for cars! and selling gas is not a viable business either. I used to be friends with one of the largest volume gas station dealers in the area (he is retired and his kids are not nearly as talkative) and he states he could not even pay his lease with the money he made from gas.

his big money maker?? sugar water plain and frozen.

but one thing i found out is that L2 is not convenient enough unless its right where you need to be. L3 is different. if charging the lower half of your pack, you can get 40 miles (35 for "other" drivers) in just 11 minutes.

11 minutes is doable and this is a business that can take off. its only the imagination of the EV station owner that limits the potential. i would put in vending machines ($2 water is only ridiculous if you already have water) some video games, etc. sell banner advertising on the charging station, etc.

dont need to make money on electricity. fact of the matter; if people are there because of a service they need, there is a way to make money

**edit**
what we need is someone with photoshop to make a pix

blink QC, ATM, Lottery machine, Redbox, Soda and snack vending machines, and what else can we add?
 
KJD said:
The best part of this news story is at the end of the print version.

Nissan has been working hard to understand some LEAF customers' concerns in the desert southwest. We've tested a number of individual vehicles and will be contacting those owners to discuss their individual results in the near term. We also anticipate having more information to release to the wider Arizona customer base soon. We are taking Phoenix customer concerns seriously and are working hard to ensure their full satisfaction."

CBS 5 asked them to define "near term." They said it means "very soon" at which time they say they will grant us an interview

They should have asked them to define "gradual".
:)
 
turbo2ltr said:
They should have asked them to define "gradual".
Nissan definition of "gradual": Any rate of battery degradation equal to or slower than the fastest degradation exhibited by all the batteries in Nissan LEAFs. ;)
 
opossum said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
but i think the VERY LEAST Nissan can do while AZ owners are in limbo is pick up the charging bill.
Dave, I love you!!! :D

The EVSEs are *finally* rolling out in decent numbers in the Phoenix and Tucson metro areas. The numbers still fall *far* short of what Blink said would be in place by the end of *last* year, but it's getting better. I think the Phoenix area is north of 300 units now (granted, most installations have at least 2 EVSEs). Azdre and I didn't expect to use the public stations too much (out of necessity, anyway). But with the dropping range, the L2 and L3 stations truly are crutches now. The killer is just the $1/hour and $2/hour fees Blink is charging. At the pathetic 3.3 kw rate the Leaf charges at, it makes it cheaper to park the car and take the motorcycle or gas car. Given the shaftings we've received from Nissan *and* Blink/Ecotality in the last 12 months, out of principle I'll sleep in my car overnight while plugged into a PlugShare free 120V outlet before I pay for a Blink L2 (except for Saturday's range test).

We spent $9 with Blink last month, and every one of those charges were because our car would only make it home at VLBW and my wife isn't comfortable running the car that low, especially with a risk of being stuck on HWY 51 during rush hour. The car made the same trip with three bars to spare when it was new.
 
The video on the KPHO website was fixed to include the end of the story. It is embedded with the 'print' article at this (new) link:

http://www.kpho.com/story/19591243/nissan-leaf-owners-still-have-no-answers-from-company-after-dramatic-loss-of-battery-capacity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mason
 
opossum said:
The video on the KPHO website was fixed to include the end of the story. It is embedded with the 'print' article at this (new) link:

http://www.kpho.com/story/19591243/nissan-leaf-owners-still-have-no-answers-from-company-after-dramatic-loss-of-battery-capacity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here is the one sentence in that article that I would really take issue with:

"Recently, owners of the all-electric Leaf here in the desert have been experiencing a dramatic drop of around 30 percent in range of how far they can drive on a fully-charged battery."

It should say "some owners have experienced drops in range of 15-30 percent" based on the range test done in Phoenix.
 
turbo2ltr said:
KJD said:
The best part of this news story is at the end of the print version.

Nissan has been working hard to understand some LEAF customers' concerns in the desert southwest. We've tested a number of individual vehicles and will be contacting those owners to discuss their individual results in the near term. We also anticipate having more information to release to the wider Arizona customer base soon. We are taking Phoenix customer concerns seriously and are working hard to ensure their full satisfaction."

CBS 5 asked them to define "near term." They said it means "very soon" at which time they say they will grant us an interview

They should have asked them to define "gradual".
:)

"Gradual" is anything with a time derivative free of singularities. Note that this seems to apply to ANY physical system. If you hit your thumb with a hammer, the "sudden" increase in pain will also be "gradual" (just on a different time scale) :lol: .
 
turbo2ltr said:
KJD said:
The best part of this news story is at the end of the print version.

Nissan has been working hard to understand some LEAF customers' concerns in the desert southwest. We've tested a number of individual vehicles and will be contacting those owners to discuss their individual results in the near term. We also anticipate having more information to release to the wider Arizona customer base soon. We are taking Phoenix customer concerns seriously and are working hard to ensure their full satisfaction."

CBS 5 asked them to define "near term." They said it means "very soon" at which time they say they will grant us an interview

They should have asked them to define "gradual".
:)

No, they shouldn't, since we don't want it "redefined" by Nissan. Mark P. has already recorded a wonderful video explaining precisely what gradual was; 20 in 5, 30 in 10.
 
The fixed 30% comment is perhaps an oversimplification of the loss various cars have, but with all due respect to Tony, the range test has very little to do with the point of this story. The point was that owners have been feeling this pain for a very long time, yet Nissan has done nothing. Some of us had already done range tests long before this weekend to support these loss claims. The range test was just a structured (and public) way to show what we have been experiencing.
 
opossum said:
The point was that owners have been feeling this pain for a very long time, yet Nissan has done nothing.
No argument there. The only question now is which will come first: a real response to this problem from Nissan or the Second Coming of Jesus. At this point, I would say it's a toss-up.
 
At this point in time Nissan has 2 choices.

1) Fix the problem and continue to sell electric vehicles.
or
2) Loose the EV market to other companies that sell cars with plugs. This would include Tesla, Toyota (PIP) and GM (Volt). I also think that BMW could take a good chunk of the EV market in the next year or 2.

We will know by the end of this year what choice Nissan makes.
 
KJD said:
2) Loose the EV market to other companies that sell cars with plugs. This would include Tesla, Toyota (PIP) and GM (Volt). I also think that BMW could take a good chunk of the EV market in the next year or 2.
As I've posted in another thread, I personally don't think BMW will make significant EV sales in the US market in the long term. Just look at BMW sales numbers at http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bmw-group-u-reports-august-175700715.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.autoblog.com/2012/09/04/august-2012-big-jumps-edition/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; vs. other major automakers and think about how many Volts, PiPs and Leafs are being sold in the US.

Given that BMW has premium pricing, it seems unlikely a BMW branded EV will be cheap. That will limit their sales. If they had a Mini-branded EV for sale that was relatively cheap, that would help them.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
I knew my LEAF would degrade as well and have a 64 mile RT commute that taxes the LEAFs winter range (we have about 10 miles to spare)

but I was also counting on public charging to "fill the gaps" as it were but I knew it would take time so thinking I have probably at least 2-3 years before an estimated 15% degradation makes the long commute a challenge I was not worried about because i thought my bases were being covered...

ok, its 20 months and 2 days later and Bingo. Centrailia QC 30 miles away, Tumwater QC 6 miles away. I am covered just as I had planned. Hopefully much more to follow.

I was counting on this also, just in 2 to 3 years from now. As of today, with my 2 bar loss, I either need to QC to 100% or QC twice in the same day to get home from work. I tried the 2 times in 1 day QC option yesterday and my battery temp soared to 9 bars! (Last time for that option). Either of these options voids my battery warranty since it is against Nissan's recommendations for QCing. What a choice, void my warranty or don't drive my 14 month old, 14K mile car...


There has been some discussion as to how others can help get Nissan's attention and support drivers who are impacted. My suggestion would be that all Leaf owners hit the "Decline" button upon power up. This won't make any difference to Nissan overall but it will tell them that you are watching and waiting for this issue to be addressed. All it will cost you is a touch of your finger. Any thoughts on this?
 
spooka said:
I was counting on this also, just in 2 to 3 years from now. As of today, with my 2 bar loss, I either need to QC to 100% or QC twice in the same day to get home from work. I tried the 2 times in 1 day QC option yesterday and my battery temp soared to 9 bars! (Last time for that option). Either of these options voids my battery warranty since it is against Nissan's recommendations for QCing. What a choice, void my warranty or don't drive my 14 month old, 14K mile car...
I don't think you'd void your battery warranty via multiple daily QCs. At the meeting last year w/Mark Perry, Kadota-san and other Nissan folks at the Google-plex, either Mark or one of the other folks confirmed multiple QCs in a day were ok and explained the reasoning for the warning in the manual. (Someone else there can elaborate or find the post on it. I was at the meeting too.) There's also http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=189439#p189439" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

BUT!!! This was all before this AZ, TX, etc. capacity bar loss stuff surfaced. And yeah, given all this, I suspect multiple daily QCs in the summer in AZ would be extra bad for your battery.
 
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