Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[theaveng]

$12.9K for the Insight back then? Wow! Was it new or used? Sheesh... if I lived down there and were interested in hybrids at the time, I might've bought one at those kind of prices.

New. It was located in D.C. and like I said the car wasn't selling. Honda produced thousands but only a few hundred were purchased per year. So they hit rock bottom prices. I was hoping Honda would keep the same body but insert 4 seats, but it never happened.

What other EVs are available for used? The Ford Focus. The MiEV. That it?

 

[tbleakne]

Of the current root-cause candidates for this issue, a software bug or a run of defective components, reputable highly-placed sources suggest that a software bug that is providing a corrupted data stream which is being used by various battery management subsystems which cause them to provide faulty indications is the leading candidate.>>>

I must respectfully disagree. A software bug or a run of defective components is just not a credible explanation for the observed decline in battery capacity. The tests this Saturday may show there is some modest error in the Gid calculation at low SOC with degraded batteries, but the primary use of the Gid calculation is just to drive the DTE (Gom). The range bars, full charge, LBW, VLBW, and Turtle are all determined by voltages, and there is no algorithm involved in voltage measurements. Standard voltage sensors are not appreciably affected by temperature.

It is not just LEAFs in "severe" environments that are experiencing loss. Many if not most LEAFs in inland Southern California are experiencing loss this Summer, but most of them don't know it yet because they have lost less than one capacity bar and they don't have the Gid meter. If summer temperatures in the high 80s, with brief daily peaks in the 90s, is too "severe" environment for this car, its market will be severely limited.

Invoking the possibility of a software bug is not necessary or likely. Is is credible to believe that there is some piece of code that says "it is hot, so lets report a different voltage than what the sensor says" ?

Basic chemistry explains what is happening. The batteries are doing just what you would expect them to do: the chemical reaction that causes capacity loss is accelerated by temperature according to the Arrhenius factor. TickTock's graph clearly shows the degradation without reference to Gids. The problem is that Nissan chose to claim that their battery chemistry was robust enough to handle the hottest temperatures encountered in the US without battery temperature management, and they were going to prove it by selling the LEAF in AZ and TX. We are proving them wrong.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
On this note, it's interesting that OrientExpress has now today suddenly decided to erase virtually all his posts that Tony linked to at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=221444#p221444" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and replace them w/numbers. :roll: WTF?

I sure hope MNL tracks edits and thus can revert them. At least a bunch of people have quoted his posts in their responses.

Some disgruntled Priuschatter before decided to vandalize and wipe his own posts, in the same way, before change tracking was turned on.

 

[mksE55]

^^^
On this note, it's interesting that OrientExpress has now today suddenly decided to erase virtually all his posts that Tony linked to at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=221444#p221444" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and replace them w/numbers. :roll: WTF?

I sure hope MNL tracks edits and thus can revert them. At least a bunch of people have quoted his posts in their responses.

Some disgruntled Priuschatter before decided to vandalize and wipe his own posts, in the same way, before change tracking was turned on.

I smell a stinky rat, What did Scarface say. All I have in this world is my Balls and my Word and I dont Break them for anyone. ( said with an Italian accent of course).

 

[TickTock]

The range bars, full charge, LBW, VLBW, and Turtle are all determined by voltages,

Do you have a source for this statement? I had come to the conclusion that LBW and VLBW are both gid based. Despite the fluctuations in the gid value, LBW always happens at 49 and VLBW at 24. Full charge, though, is definitely voltage based. Anyway, a 10% error in the gid value won't have much impact at all on range since we are talking about 5 versus 5.5 gids (or 400wh vs 440Wh) to hit turtle. @5mpkwh, thats only 0.2 miles difference.

 

[Nubo]

Of the current root-cause candidates for this issue, a software bug or a run of defective components, reputable highly-placed sources suggest that a software bug that is providing a corrupted data stream which is being used by various battery management subsystems which cause them to provide faulty indications is the leading candidate.>>>

I must respectfully disagree. A software bug or a run of defective components is just not a credible explanation for the observed decline in battery capacity. ...

Well if it is a software bug then we are all doomed, I fear. :lol:

Witness the LEAF ordering system, the LEAF app, the fix for the Wattstation charging failures still yet to materialize.... Coding does not seem to be Nissan's strong suit.

 

[vrwl]

^^^
On this note, it's interesting that OrientExpress has now today suddenly decided to erase virtually all his posts that Tony linked to at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=221444#p221444" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and replace them w/numbers. :roll: WTF?

I sure hope MNL tracks edits and thus can revert them. At least a bunch of people have quoted his posts in their responses.

Some disgruntled Priuschatter before decided to vandalize and wipe his own posts, in the same way, before change tracking was turned on.

That's just SO wrong on so many levels. He/she was delivering the "party line". So why the need to change it now? Hmmmm??? Embarrassment perhaps?

 

[Stoaty]

On this note, it's interesting that OrientExpress has now today suddenly decided to erase virtually all his posts that Tony linked to at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=221444#p221444" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and replace them w/numbers. :roll: WTF?

I guess he had to get rid of the evidence before the big test on Saturday. Couldn't man up and say "I was wrong, there really is a problem here." Maybe he lost a capacity bar?

 

[vrwl]

I guess he had to get rid of the evidence before the big test on Saturday. Couldn't man up and say "I was wrong, there really is a problem here." Maybe he lost a capacity bar?

Not that I would wish it on anyone, but it would be a certain measure of poetic justice if that's what happened.

 

[surfingslovak]

I guess he had to get rid of the evidence before the big test on Saturday. Couldn't man up and say "I was wrong, there really is a problem here." Maybe he lost a capacity bar?

Not that I would wish it on anyone, but it would be a certain measure of poetic justice if that's what happened.

I believe OE penned the following comment on an plugincars.com article yesterday. Perhaps it answers your question.

Anonymous (not verified) · 17 hours ago

I have owned a LEAF since May of last year, and have over 20,000 miles on it. I drive it like any other car, charge it to 100% every night, and it has been completely faultless. It still has all of the range it had when it was new, all of its Bars too. My climate is hot to moderate, but not as hot as in Arizona, but my LEAF has been the most trouble-free car that I have ever owned.

There are over 30,000 LEAFs in operation around the world today, and the fact that such a small number are having issues is quite remarkable for a first generation car, especially a car as complex as an EV. While whatever is affecting the cars that do have problems bears investigation, it seems that Nissan is doing just that, and given that it is a new platform and a new technology, they are probably making sure they fully understand what is going on. I give Nissan the benefit of the doubt to let them figure it out and fix it.

Until then, the self serving noise that is being raised by a few provocateurs should be treated as such, self-serving ego driven noise.

 

[TonyWilliams]

OE is a dude (I know I've personally gotten notes asking if "it" is female... an insult to women everywhere).

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

^^^
On this note, it's interesting that OrientExpress has now today suddenly decided to erase virtually all his posts that Tony linked to at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=221444#p221444" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and replace them w/numbers. :roll: WTF?

I sure hope MNL tracks edits and thus can revert them. At least a bunch of people have quoted his posts in their responses.

Some disgruntled Priuschatter before decided to vandalize and wipe his own posts, in the same way, before change tracking was turned on.

Wow, I know nothing about OrientExpress, but that right there is weak sauce.

First rule of the internet is whatever's on the internet is on the internet. Forever. The only way to back out of what you've written in a post is to edit it before anybody has a reason to read/quote so that they don't even know what they need to revert Obviously he's a bit late to the party for that with his edits.

Not that I would wish it on anyone, but it would be a certain measure of poetic justice if that's what happened.

No worries, it's just a bad line of code or two, right :lol:

 

[theaveng]

I have owned a LEAF since May of last year, and have over 20,000 miles on it..... has been the most trouble-free car that I have ever owned. Especially a car as complex as an EV.

What kind of junk cars has OE been buying that he had trouble during the first 20,000 miles??? I or relatives (dad/brother) have bought ~20 new cars over the years, and I've never seen any of them experience trouble during the first 20K. OrientExpress acts as if his Leaf having no problems is unusual. That's supposed to be the NORM not the exception.
ALSO:
An electric car is supposed to be *simple* not complex. That is one of its major selling points I frequently hear from EV enthusiasts. It's a motor, a battery, and an ESC. That's it; much simpler than a gasoline car.

 

[theaveng]

12.

Erasing all your posts eh? You're a real [patootie-hole].
QUOTE:
"in the larger scheme of things this is just a fart in the breeze."

 

[tbleakne]

The range bars, full charge, LBW, VLBW, and Turtle are all determined by voltages,

Do you have a source for this statement? I had come to the conclusion that LBW and VLBW are both gid based. Despite the fluctuations in the gid value, LBW always happens at 49 and VLBW at 24. Full charge, though, is definitely voltage based. Anyway, a 10% error in the gid value won't have much impact at all on range since we are talking about 5 versus 5.5 gids (or 400wh vs 440Wh) to hit turtle. @5mpkwh, thats only 0.2 miles difference.

No I don't. I defer to your data. I guess it sort of makes sense to use Gids for LBW AND VLBW (if the Gids were accurate).

I personally have very little experience with LBW or VLBW, but as I ratchet down my charge top (sometimes below 45% on Gid meter) in hot weather in an attempt to slow the rate of capacity decline, I am pushing the low end more, so knowing that LBW is based upon Gids will be useful.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
On this note, it's interesting that OrientExpress has now today suddenly decided to erase virtually all his posts that Tony linked to at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=221444#p221444" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and replace them w/numbers. :roll: WTF?

I sure hope MNL tracks edits and thus can revert them. At least a bunch of people have quoted his posts in their responses.

Some disgruntled Priuschatter before decided to vandalize and wipe his own posts, in the same way, before change tracking was turned on.

Wow, I know nothing about OrientExpress, but that right there is weak sauce.

First rule of the internet is whatever's on the internet is on the internet. Forever. The only way to back out of what you've written in a post is to edit it before anybody has a reason to read/quote so that they don't even know what they need to revert Obviously he's a bit late to the party for that with his edits.

Not that I would wish it on anyone, but it would be a certain measure of poetic justice if that's what happened.

No worries, it's just a bad line of code or two, right :lol:

I totally didn't expect OE to go around deleting his posts, but some of them can still be found in cached pages on Google. There might be some on Bing too. But, those will eventually go away.

This is why sometimes it's good to submit important pages to archive.org (aka Internet Wayback Machine) as I requested at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9553" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like anyone submitted the pages w/his posts (or archive.org didn't crawl them in time). But then again, I don't think any of us saw any need to nor expected him to attempt "ninja edits".

At least people had quoted his posts.... so some/most of it has been preserved.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion here and disagreeing is normal but badgering people because of a difference of opinion is not part of that process. OE can say anything he wants and so can others unless it becomes offensive. Here is a reminder though:

Reporting posts as spam because of a disagreement of opinion of facts or anything other than a violation of forum rules is not acceptable. Having to address these spam reports is a waste of moderator time. Members that abuse this feature or consistently disrupt the forum with organized attack campaigns over the above topic may be banned from the site without warning for an extended time period. Please do not abuse the forum tools and if you don't agree with others then you can also simply ignore them. If this happens with large numbers of members in a single thread those threads may also be locked. Please play nice in the sandbox and don't throw the sand, many members seem to be able to handle this quite well. Also remember that what is written here is on the Google for a long time even if deleted.

Thank you.

 

[mwalsh]

99 degrees today, and the first day at 7 bars on the temp scale for the year. Supposed to be even hotter tomorrow, but I've nowhere I really need to be, so I'll let the LEAF rest up.

 

[EVDRIVER]

99 degrees today, and the first day at 7 bars on the temp scale for the year. Supposed to be even hotter tomorrow, but I've nowhere I really need to be, so I'll let the LEAF rest up.

Best to park it on blocks of ice. :lol:

 

[mksE55]

Any updates on the 5-6 people who in may listed their Leafs with full capacity. It would be nice to note if and when they lose a bar.