Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[DesertDenizen]

Added reedwick to the wiki as the 82nd report of at least one lost bar.

There are actually 83 one bar losers. One of the 3 bar losers (Kristy Bryant) did not have info on bars one or two. The report was from Facebook, where she was kicking up a storm on the Nissan Leaf site because she was upset. I didn't enter her in the one bar or two bar loser categories, because I didn't know where to put her there. The correct number (83) is at this link in the summary:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Losses" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, they are sensitive when you bring up capacity issues on their Facebook page. That is why I have a case number already even though I still have 12 bars. I posted on their Facebook, just to let my fellow hot climaters to know of the issue and I have seen signs of losing capacity. Nissan then called me, gave me a case number, and asked what I wanted. I said to revert my purchase to a lease. They said they would note that in my case file.

 

[Stoaty]

Yes, they are sensitive when you bring up capacity issues on their Facebook page.

As they should be. Sounds like a good place to keep bringing up the issue. I periodically post a summary of reported capacity bar losses to their Facebook page to make sure the message gets out.

 

[opossum]

Yes, they are sensitive when you bring up capacity issues on their Facebook page.

Awesome! Is it time to organize a campaign to have everyone post about their capacity loss issues and complaint activities 3 times a day, every day, on the Nissan LEAF Facebook page? That worked when I had to find tenants on Craigslist for my rental house! :twisted:

 

[DesertDenizen]

Yes, they are sensitive when you bring up capacity issues on their Facebook page.

Awesome! Is it time to organize a campaign to have everyone post about their capacity loss issues and complaint activities 3 times a day, every day, on the Nissan LEAF Facebook page? That worked when I had to find tenants on Craigslist for my rental house! :twisted:

Many of the posters there are prospective Leaf owners, a perfect audience to benefit from our experiences.

 

[TonyWilliams]

After swapping my purchased 2011 leaf because of 9of 12 bars on 80% for a leased 2012 leaf in June, I have 935 miles on it and today was the first time I got 9of 12 bars on 80% charge. It has been an xtremely hot summer as it always is here in Palm Springs but this is ridiculous.
I have been getting 55 approx miles on 80% charge and barely 65 on 100%. Also if I leave it parked for a few hours I also lose a bar.
So I have had 2 leafs and can confirm that I am over it now!
50-60 mile range on 3.2 kwh mile. Is really not acceptable no matter how carefully I drive it, bottom line, hot weather, get a different car. Now I'm stuck with it for 3 years!

If you drive it hard and only get 3.2/kW h, then that's why your range is so low, not because of the battery. At 80% charge you will get 54 miles (17 X 3.2) until Turtle and at 100% charge 67 miles (21 X 21) until Turtle. If you were able to get at least 4.0m/kW h, you would see your miles increase significantly. Using ECO and some coasting in 'N', you should easily get at least 4.0.

As we examined earlier on your car, it's just fine, for now. You don't have to skip a few hours to "lose a bar", you can just turn it off, then on, and sometimes it will lose a bar. That is normal. The battery has the same capacity.

You are not stuck with the car, as several people, myself included, have either sold the car outright (admittedly tough now) or turned in a lease. Yes, it may cost you some money to unload it, but there's nothing (yet) wrong with yours. I doubt seriously that will be the case at the end of your lease.

All your mileage estimates appear to be based on the dash "GuessOmeter" for range prediction, which is an extremely poor basis for anything related to range.

My advice is that if the car continues to do the job for you, I'd keep driving it. If you want to get a pure gas burner or hybrid, I can't help you. If you want to replace with a different EV, I recommend the much more expensive solutions, like Rav4 or Model S. BMW will have their car in probably 18 months or so. Ford Focus and Honda Fit seem like such teeny tiny availability as to not really be a player. Even the GM Volt would be better, with a very good and robust heating and cooling of the battery, if you only drive about 40 miles or less. There are others, like Coda.

Anyway, the LEAF is a great car with a FATAL design flaw. If I had cancer, would you shoot me now, or wait until I died to replace me? (somebody will say, "wait for the cure", but I honestly don't see that on the horizon from Nissan) Yes, your LEAF will die in that heat, and it probably won't be worth much money then, but with a lease, you are well protected, PROVIDED that the car will still work for you with 20%-50% range reduction at the end of the lease.

So, there's no hurry. You'll turn the car in either before, or at the lease expiration.

 

[TonyWilliams]

My drive is 57 miles round trip.... I drive 65 on the highway (hard to drive much slower on I5), and get an average 3.6-3.7 m/kWh.

You will have to slow down, unfortunately, particularly this winter when the battery is cold and you might have the heater going.

I would seriously get used to driving 50-55mph on the freeway, because you will be doing it sooner or later.

I'm in San Diego, also. Come on out to the National Plug in Day San Diego, Sunday, Sept 23. We will have a bunch of LEAF's there !!!

 

[spooka]

After swapping my purchased 2011 leaf because of 9of 12 bars on 80% for a leased 2012 leaf in June

Just making sure I am interpreting this correctly...

Nissan allowed you to turn in your 2011 Leaf and leased you a new 2012? If so, DETAILS PLEASE! (What state, dealership name, etc.) As owners, we'd be far better off in your situation if we could swap for a lease. Please confirm Nissan is doing this.

 

[Weatherman]

Just making sure I am interpreting this correctly...

Nissan allowed you to turn in your 2011 Leaf and leased you a new 2012? If so, DETAILS PLEASE! (What state, dealership name, etc.) As owners, we'd be far better off in your situation if we could swap for a lease. Please confirm Nissan is doing this.

I don't believe there's anything special about this. It's like trading in any old car for a new one.

You take your 2011 into a dealer and they may offer you something in the low $20k for your trade-in, if you are lucky. Then you lease a new 2012 for two or three years.

I traded in a 2012 LEAF in July and leased another 2012 for three years. Took a sizable depreciation hit on my original 2012 when I traded in, but it was worth it not to have to worry about the battery any more.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I traded in a 2012 LEAF in July and leased another 2012 for three years. Took a sizable depreciation hit on my original 2012 when I traded in, but it was worth it not to have to worry about the battery any more.

I've broken the code!!! This is how Nissan will sell 20,000 cars by March 2013; everybody just trade in your current LEAF for a new lease.

 

[djchrispaul]

I traded in a 2012 LEAF in July and leased another 2012 for three years. Took a sizable depreciation hit on my original 2012 when I traded in, but it was worth it not to have to worry about the battery any more.

I've broken the code!!! This is how Nissan will sell 20,000 cars by March 2013; everybody just trade in your current LEAF for a new lease.

Haha I think you have it!

 

[spooka]

Just making sure I am interpreting this correctly...

Nissan allowed you to turn in your 2011 Leaf and leased you a new 2012? If so, DETAILS PLEASE! (What state, dealership name, etc.) As owners, we'd be far better off in your situation if we could swap for a lease. Please confirm Nissan is doing this.

I don't believe there's anything special about this. It's like trading in any old car for a new one.

You take your 2011 into a dealer and they may offer you something in the low $20k for your trade-in, if you are lucky. Then you lease a new 2012 for two or three years.

I traded in a 2012 LEAF in July and leased another 2012 for three years. Took a sizable depreciation hit on my original 2012 when I traded in, but it was worth it not to have to worry about the battery any more.

Yep, should've known better. Thanks

 

[Stoaty]

My battery capacity is now down 9-10% by Gid count. 100% charge = 253, 80% charge = 212. This is in spite of:

--In my 15 months of Leaf ownership I have only charged to 100% about 10 times.
--Never QC (I can't since I have an SV)
--My Leaf has spent approximately 92% of its life at 5 bars, the other 8% at 6 bars, never saw 7 bars
--I drive like an old lady to get best possible miles/kwh = minimum stress on the battery
--Latest Gid counts were measured at 5 temperature bars
--A 100% charge had no effect to improve Gid count, have never seen any evidence that my battery is out of balance.

I have never seen any evidence of Gid count being temperature dependent in my leaf in my environment.

It would not be possible to treat a Leaf more gently than I have treated mine. I think this battery capacity loss problem is going to turn out badly for Nissan unless they can pull a rabbit out of the hat.

 

[abasile]

My battery capacity is now down 9-10% by Gid count. 100% charge = 253, 80% charge = 212. This is in spite of:

--In my 15 months of Leaf ownership I have only charged to 100% about 10 times.
--Never QC (I can't since I have an SV)
--My Leaf has spent approximately 92% of its life at 5 bars, the other 8% at 6 bars, never saw 7 bars
--I drive like an old lady to get best possible miles/kwh = minimum stress on the battery
--Latest Gid counts were measured at 5 temperature bars
--A 100% charge had no effect to improve Gid count, have never seen any evidence that my battery is out of balance.

I have never seen any evidence of Gid count being temperature dependent in my leaf in my environment.

It would not be possible to treat a Leaf more gently than I have treated mine. I think this battery capacity loss problem is going to turn out badly for Nissan unless they can pull a rabbit out of the hat.

My LEAF's capacity is similar to yours. We charged to 100% over the weekend, admittedly with a fairly hot battery (high end of six temp bars), and got 253 gids. I'm getting 213 gids at 80%.

However, I've had the LEAF almost 17 months, with over 21K miles, lots of mountain driving with copious regen and 20-30 kW continuous power draw, many discharges down to the "low battery" warning, and a number of quick charges.

Our mitigating factor, however, is that I suspect our battery pack's average temperature has remained significantly below yours. Today, for instance, it didn't hit six temp bars until evening when my wife drove to the base of the mountain to pick me up. Most of last winter was spent at four temp bars. "I am sorry for your loss."

 

[TonyWilliams]

I think this battery capacity loss problem is going to turn out badly for Nissan unless they can pull a rabbit out of the hat.

Nissan doesn't need a rabbit. There are solutions, however none of them are pretty cost wise. Whatever they fail to do just saves them money, in their shortsighted view.Hence, the deny, obfuscate, divert attention, and pretty much anything else that doesn't address the obvious; the battery chemistry is not well suited to heat (in fact, one of the most heat critical chemistries in the automotive lithium battery world), Nissan knew this before day one, and yet flipped the dice with (obviously now) substandard testing.

The cars like yours probably meet Nissan's idea of "gradual" loss, that may end up at 20% in 5 years, but look how it needed to be coddled to get there. By the way, I seriously doubt ANY current LEAF will be above 20% in 5 years, unless it is north of the Artic Circle the whole time.

 

[edatoakrun]

My battery capacity is now down 9-10% by Gid count. 100% charge = 253, 80% charge = 212. This is in spite of:

--In my 15 months of Leaf ownership I have only charged to 100% about 10 times.
--Never QC (I can't since I have an SV)
--My Leaf has spent approximately 92% of its life at 5 bars, the other 8% at 6 bars, never saw 7 bars
--I drive like an old lady to get best possible miles/kwh = minimum stress on the battery
--Latest Gid counts were measured at 5 temperature bars
--A 100% charge had no effect to improve Gid count, have never seen any evidence that my battery is out of balance.

I have never seen any evidence of Gid count being temperature dependent in my leaf in my environment.

It would not be possible to treat a Leaf more gently than I have treated mine. I think this battery capacity loss problem is going to turn out badly for Nissan unless they can pull a rabbit out of the hat.

My LEAF's capacity is similar to yours. We charged to 100% over the weekend, admittedly with a fairly hot battery (high end of six temp bars), and got 253 gids. I'm getting 213 gids at 80%.

However, I've had the LEAF almost 17 months, with over 21K miles, lots of mountain driving with copious regen and 20-30 kW continuous power draw, many discharges down to the "low battery" warning, and a number of quick charges.

Our mitigating factor, however, is that I suspect our battery pack's average temperature has remained significantly below yours. Today, for instance, it didn't hit six temp bars until evening when my wife drove to the base of the mountain to pick me up. Most of last winter was spent at four temp bars. "I am sorry for your loss."

Have either of you tried to verify the accuracy of your loss of gid count as a measure of available battery capacity with either a range test or charge capacity test, as compared to earlier results?

I have driven ~12,500 miles with exposure to higher peak ambient tempertures (though probably lower than Stoaty's average) and while my kWh capacity calculate from the dash has dropped about 11%:

...It seems very likely to me that both (charge capacity and range tests) are reflecting the same underlying error in my LEAF’s dash, nav screen and CW kWh use reports, as also effected by other variables which I cannot eliminate from my observations.

So, I believe that the recharge time results are compatible with my range tests, which indicate no observed reduction in range, both probably indicating that my LEAF has no observable loss of available battery capacity (though some amount has almost certainly occurred) over the last 12 months.

I think it is also very likely that many other LEAFs have similar errors in kWh reports, quite possibly due to the gid Wh variability TickTock observed last year, and that capacity bar displays might be similarly effected. Not having lost a bar (yet) or ever having monitored my gid count, I can’t observe those results.

I do think that anyone seeing capacity bar losses or dropping gid counts should try both range and charge capacity tests, to try to more accurately determine their LEAF’s actual loss of battery capacity.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Stoaty]

Have either of you tried to verify the accuracy of your loss of gid count as a measure of available battery capacity with either a range test or charge capacity test, as compared to earlier results?

No, I don't have any earlier results to compare, plus I don't have the time or inclination to do such tests. As I said, I haven't seen any evidence for Gid variability with temperature in my environment, which is quite a bit cooler than Phoenix. At the current rate of capacity loss--which shows no signs of slowing so far--I am beginning to doubt that I will have 80% capacity remaining at 5 years.

 

[edatoakrun]

Have either of you tried to verify the accuracy of your loss of gid count as a measure of available battery capacity with either a range test or charge capacity test, as compared to earlier results?

="Stoaty

No, I don't have any earlier results to compare, plus I don't have the time or inclination to do such tests...

What about your dash, nav screen or CW m/kWh reports?

Do you, or does anyone else, think you may have seen inexplicable efficiency increases in those reports over time, for either single trips, or for your long term averages, as I believe I have?

 

[SierraQ]

Via Drees

September 4, 2012 article: http://canberratimes.drive.com.au/motor-news/nissan-to-step-up-ev-production-20120904-25b60.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Andy Palmer, executive vice president of Nissan.

Palmer also dismissed recent reports of battery problems in hot weather for the Leaf. A number of owners in America complained of reduced range during summer, but Palmer says the problem is a faulty battery level display.

"We don't have a battery problem," he says.

So other than this random statement that appears like an afterthought in this article, has anyone who was part of the testing actually received any official answer from Nissan?

I have a hard time believing that this is "the answer"--it sounds more like a prepared response to an uncomfortable question. Plus there has been a mention of a Nissan task force being assembled. I don't think they are done with this. They had better not be as I can no longer make my commute in the car and it is just a year old.

However, if this is the answer then we can probably expect newer Leafs to have a capacity gauge where the first bar is 30% of the battery. Clearly 15% or so was... faulty.

 

[TickTock]

I haven't recieved anything formal other then the one datapoint they gave me when I picked it up that I was at 86% capacity. This means they consider 21.6kW 100% capacity.

 

[Stoaty]

What about your dash, nav screen or CW m/kWh reports?

Do you, or does anyone else, think you may have seen inexplicable efficiency increases in those reports over time, for either single trips, or for your long term averages, as I believe I have?

My miles/kwh on the dash has remained constant at 5.7 (my long-term average) for the last 10,000 miles. On the console, the last 1,000 miles or so (don't know when I reset it) shows 5.9. Since the console is considered to read 0.1 or so above the dash, these are less that 2% different, and probably represent the same reading since we don't have finer granularity of these values. I don't use Carwings for anything, never send my data to Nissan.