Battery Replacement Program Details

[TomT]

The ROI is not there for me to pay $100 a month forever to be guaranteed nothing better than 9 bars of capacity (remember, you only get a 12 bar battery once under the "plan")...

I think $100 a month is much better than purchasing another vehicle in 2016. This program buoys the value of the earlier LEAFs by insuring that there is a bottom to the range degradation FOREVER.

 

[firetrax]

If Smart can option a $5,000 "buy-out" option on their battery lease, why can't Nissan? At least consumers will then have the choice on which route to go based on their own circumstances.

 

[cgaydos]

Or, it could be this: I recall in a social psychology class I took AGES ago in college some sort of tactics to make people think something is more acceptable. I don't recall the term for it. Maybe someone w/a psych degree can chime in?

Example:
They'd start by asking you to donate blood but you have for some inconvenient amounts of time, like 3x a week, 2 hours each time. This sounds terrible.
They then offer something else more palatable like once every 2 months, for an hour.

The person is more likely to accept the 2nd option after being given the first horrible choice than if they were the 2nd one only. It's as if the recipient feels the other person is doing them a favor and they feel more obligated to accept.

The term you are looking for is "Anchoring and Adjustment"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not that I'm saying Nissan is doing that here. Pure speculation here, but I'm going to guess that Brian was asked to deal with this issue after others before him had made those public promises. He got the various Nissan stakeholders together and they looked at all of the factors and constraints involved. We can only guess what all of them might be - some people have posted ideas here but we don't really know. In the end they decide that "this is a promise that never should have been made" and perhaps Brian says "Look, we have a very active enthusiast community who is expected an answer in April ... I stretched the limit of the original promise to be in the 'Spring' to June 20 - I have to announce SOMETHING." (Sorry for putting words in your mouth Brian. Obviously I have no idea what actually happened but I do think it's obvious there were constraints and limitations that went into defining this program, and also that you are sensitive to trying to live up to the promises made by others on Nissan's behalf.) So they get with finance and quickly throw together a sketch of a battery lease program, using $100 as a round number, with the idea that they are buying time to work out the details and fine print and maybe find a more optimal solution.

I can see why the first LEAF adopters are upset. When I got my LEAFs the acquistion cost was very competitive and I understood the range limitations well. I also live in a climate that is very favorable to LEAF battery life. To me this $100/month battery rental program, or whatever it turns out to be after the legal fine print is drafted, is not something I expected or counted on and may or may not be a nice option in the future, but either way no big deal. But if I lived in a high temp area and had paid a high premium for the LEAF expecting longer range and a long battery life I'd have an entirely different reaction to the program right now.

 

[smkettner]

What dealer will take a LEAF in trade with a $100 payment while it sits on the lot?

 

[GregH]

It might be interesting to set up a survey..
IF you ever felt like you needed a new (12 bar) battery for whatever reason (just not happy with 10 or 11 bars, post 6 year warranty, whatever), how high would the cost of a replacement battery have to be in order to make you consider the ~$100/mo new battery lease as an alternative?
A $4k?
B $5k?
C $6k?
D $7k?
E $8k?
F $10k?
G $12k?
H $15k?
I I'd never consider a lease.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

While you're doing surveys, poll the monthly lease/"battery as a service" price people would be OK with. Frankly dropping the $100 number shows Nissan didn't have their marketing people approve this, nothing like this should ever be priced at $100, it should have been $99. I think at $79 a month this would have sounded a lot more appealing to folks. Heck, at $49.95 a month I bet even thankyouOB would sign up.

What's that old joke, we've already established what you are, now we're just haggling over price.

 

[oscar]

It might be interesting to set up a survey..
IF you ever felt like you needed a new (12 bar) battery for whatever reason (just not happy with 10 or 11 bars, post 6 year warranty, whatever), how high would the cost of a replacement battery have to be in order to make you consider the ~$100/mo new battery lease as an alternative?
A $4k?
B $5k?
C $6k?
D $7k?
E $8k?
F $10k?
G $12k?
H $15k?
I I'd never consider a lease.

I’m an early adopter of Nissan Leaf 2011. The price that I expect after 5-6 years pack be in range $4-5k. I know this price doesn’t profit Nissan but this is great marketing strategy. This keep the earlier adopter happy and future Nissan Leaf owner a sense Nissan EV is a way to go. Nissan will get all the sales with this kind of promotion and increase sales. Base on this $100 monthly it waste of marketing ideas and could backlash on EV and Nissan Brand. Wasted opportunities on Nissan first to EV market and first to fall flat on their face!

 

[oscar]

Bad comments are pouring in now. Bad PR on Nissan thanks for devalue my 2011 Leaf and your future sales. Thanks for destorying my Leaf to resale. Now offer me a buy back and I take your new lease.

"A person with a 35 mpg vehicle driving 10,000 miles a year (more than most would drive an electric vehicle) would end up paying less than $85 per month on fuel. The economics of paying $100 per month before even accounting for charging costs just doesn't come close to adding up."

"I'm curious to see what the average cost per mile for this will be over the next few years. My driving habits make me a good Leaf candidate, but if the running cost goes over traditional gas or hybrid, why bother?"

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2420827,00.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[FairwoodRed]

Much of this angst is misplaced. This is a Battery Rental Program, not a Battery Pack Price that we have been waiting for. On that we continue to await an answer and we should continue to press Nissan for their promised answer. Over in the proper thread.

This thread is for a new program that seems to be of little interest to most of us. Now that I realize this, I’ll read this thread a lot less.

 

[Valdemar]

I’m an early adopter of Nissan Leaf 2011. The price that I expect after 5-6 years pack be in range $4-5k.

Can you please elaborate what your expectations are based on? At no time there was any sort of indication on future battery prices coming from Nissan. All we knew at the time was that automotive batteries cost $500-$600/kWh to produce and very little data to extrapolate in order to predict future numbers.

 

[oscar]

I’m an early adopter of Nissan Leaf 2011. The price that I expect after 5-6 years pack be in range $4-5k.

Can you please elaborate what your expectations are based on? At no time there was any sort of indication on future battery prices coming from Nissan. All we knew at the time was that automotive batteries cost $500-$600/kWh to produce and very little data to extrapolate in order to predict future numbers.

Read this...link...bad publicity is pouring in. Nissan just screw all loyalty by dropping my current 2011 Leaf to nothing..junk yard..nobody want to buy my Nissan Leaf now. Nissan just became a laughing stock!!! I'm MAD!!!

http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/21/nissan-leaf-battery-program/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[derkraut]

Bad comments are pouring in now. Bad PR on Nissan thanks for devalue my 2011 Leaf and your future sales. Thanks for destorying my Leaf to resale. Now offer me a buy back and I take your new lease.

"A person with a 35 mpg vehicle driving 10,000 miles a year (more than most would drive an electric vehicle) would end up paying less than $85 per month on fuel. The economics of paying $100 per month before even accounting for charging costs just doesn't come close to adding up."

"I'm curious to see what the average cost per mile for this will be over the next few years. My driving habits make me a good Leaf candidate, but if the running cost goes over traditional gas or hybrid, why bother?"

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2420827,00.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well stated, oscar

 

[smkettner]

This is getting to look like the inkjet printer business model.
We just need the aftermarket to figure out how to refill our cartridge :|

 

[GregH]

Bad comments are pouring in now. Bad PR on Nissan thanks for devalue my 2011 Leaf and your future sales. Thanks for destorying my Leaf to resale. Now offer me a buy back and I take your new lease.

"A person with a 35 mpg vehicle driving 10,000 miles a year (more than most would drive an electric vehicle) would end up paying less than $85 per month on fuel. The economics of paying $100 per month before even accounting for charging costs just doesn't come close to adding up."

"I'm curious to see what the average cost per mile for this will be over the next few years. My driving habits make me a good Leaf candidate, but if the running cost goes over traditional gas or hybrid, why bother?"

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2420827,00.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess it all depends on how long the original battery lasts.. YMMV.

 

[Valdemar]

I’m an early adopter of Nissan Leaf 2011. The price that I expect after 5-6 years pack be in range $4-5k.

Can you please elaborate what your expectations are based on? At no time there was any sort of indication on future battery prices coming from Nissan. All we knew at the time was that automotive batteries cost $500-$600/kWh to produce and very little data to extrapolate in order to predict future numbers.

Read this...link...bad publicity is pouring in. Nissan just screw all loyalty by dropping my current 2011 Leaf to nothing..junk yard..nobody want to buy my Nissan Leaf now. Nissan just became a laughing stock!!! I'm MAD!!!

http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/21/nissan-leaf-battery-program/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The truth is nobody wanted to buy your Leaf even before this announcement. I want to know the details about their tiered payment structure. If it is going to cost slightly above $100 to drive 20,000miles/year it is not such a bad deal, for me anyway.

 

[klapauzius]

no real data on the lack of SOC on MY 2011-12 but guessing its some sort of unspecified hardware limitation. or simply too tough a software challenge? who knows?
but comparing the two is just a bit beyond me. For under $100 you can get one yourself and before I hear the cries of indignation that Nissan is "forcing" us to pay $100 to get some basic info, lets talk about aftermarket water temp, oil pressure gauges we put into gas cars because of our "wonderfully deep trust" of idiot lights

No, this is a very good example:
To claim that a simple software fix to display data that is already somewhere in the cars systems cannot be done is indicative.
Now it seems, the BMS cannot handle larger batteries? Again, this is not a huge engineering challenge.

Also, when you look at the gradual reduction in expectations (Upgrade to a larger L2 charger, 100 mile range, 80% degradation in 10 years etc), the claim now that the BMS could not handle larger batteries without expensive upgrades means there wont be no larger battery from Nissan for older and current Leafs.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

The truth is nobody wanted to buy your Leaf even before this announcement. I want to know the details about their tiered payment structure. If it is going to cost slightly above $100 to drive 20,000miles/year it is not such a bad deal, for me anyway.

+1
Assume you mean $100/mo. On the surface it isn't horrible, but face it, that really does cut into any saving over a modest ICE now in a very measurable way. Not at all appealing to the people who bought on a (what I think is mistaken) notion this car, being an EV, was somehow going to last them the rest of their lives if they can just get a new battery every 10 years. The other wild card in Leaf ownership is all the other components, aside from the battery. If you're shelling out $100/mo then you get a bill to replace a $1000 LED headlight, or something in the controller, or who knows what, these cars could get to be a real screwing, and there just isn't the history to know. One thing you can be sure of, there are still plenty of parts that are just like and ICE car that will age just like an ICE car, e.g. CV joint boots, suspension bushings, struts, the list goes on. Cars have lots of rubber parts, seals, bushings, hoses and they all age. When these cars get to be 10 years old, most people with the means to buy new cars will be ready to move on if they haven't already.

 

[smkettner]

The median and mean age of automobiles has steadily increased since 1969. In 2007 the overall median age for automobiles was 9.4 years, a significant increase over 1990 when the median age of vehicles in operation in the US was 6.5 years and 1969 when the mean age for automobiles was 5.1 years.
(from wikipedia)



It would appear 10 years is just the first half of the eventual life of a vehicle. I assume vehicles last 20 years unless wrecked. EVs could be 30+ years if we just had a battery every 6 to 12 years. You may not keep it that long but the vehicle is still running somewhere.

 

[JPWhite]

[
The trouble is the "one size fits all" $100 payment does not allow conservative people charging to 80% once a week in a cool climate the opportunity to stretch the life of the battery compared to the 20,000 mile driver in AZ charging to 100% twice a day or multiple QC.

One positive thing to be said for the rental program is that there is a reduced incentive to charge only to 80%, instead go all the way everyday. If the pack degrades you get another.

One thing Nissan maybe wanting to do after the EPA changed how they calculate EV ranges, is to rent us packs, no longer recommend 80% charging, and/or possibly eliminate it with a firmware upgrade. The LEAF EPA range would magically jump up with the same size pack and vehicle!!

While charging to 80% 'is good for the pack' it isn't good for convenience. So we take good care of our batteries and hope to hang onto them as long as possible. This program rids us of battery anxiety and reduces somewhat range anxiety.

As long as you can live with a 9 bar pack, you're golden.

Problem is having eliminated these issues, the TCO calculations went in the wrong direction, a good portion of the gas savings are eaten up by the battery program.

 

[klapauzius]

how would you feel buying a replacement pack for $5,000 today knowing that in certain areas you will only have 75% of that capacity in 3 years and before paying that battery off on your 3 year payment plan at $150 a month, Nissan comes out with a battery with better chemistry that is expected to retain 90% of its capacity after 5 years in Phoenix and are selling it for $3,000?

I have to say we are not looking at the big picture here. I have been burned DOZENS of time by the march of technology. Man, I cannot tell you the depth of my love for RCA had they provided me something like this for my $900 28" CRT or my $350 DVD player or even my $199 NON SMARTPHONE!

but no! none of these companies provided me the option to pay a modest monthly price and still be able to get the latest technology. I paid the full price only to see something with twice the capability sell for 50 cents on the dollar...

another thing to keep in mind is that 3rd party vendors only exists because there is a market. If Nissan wont sell battery packs outright, someone will

In my situation (i.e. here in WA), I do not expect to buy a new battery, even 3 years from now. I think the current one will last a while and if I can buy a new one after 8 years (and trade in my old one) say at something around $5k or less net and drive another 8 years with it, I would call this a success.
If it had more capacity then the current one, even better.

I am not driving much around with the car to justify a $100/month cost AND I expect my batteries will last long enough so that financially it would make NO sense at all to pay $100/month to "rent" a battery.

While this deal might be OK for high mileage drivers in hot climates, it is most definitely NOT OK in the pacific northwest.


And for $35k (-tax credits), I find this toy to be too expensive to throw away and upgrade to a new one every 5 years.