Battery Replacement Program Details

[DaveinOlyWA]

Brian, is it possible at this point you can outline the payment structure with regards to annual mileage? Or at least tell us how many annual miles will be allowed under the announced $100/month plan?

no mileage limitations, no time limitations. you can enter the lease program at 3 years and 50,000 miles or 10 years and 200,000 miles. In either case, you will get a lease battery with 12 bar capacity and most likely with a chemistry more robust than the OEM battery you replace.

Hmm, perhaps I misread it but I thought it was mentioned here that annual mileage will affect the "subscription" price. If there is no mileage limit I'm in

there is no mileage limit or time frame. you could drive your LEAF until its down to 50% degradation after 10 years, then get a full capacity battery pack with the latest in chemistry. it is really a great program except for that "flat fee" mentality. check out my blog post. Nissan could easily hit a home run by offering a tiered lease program that covers more needs. With Winter range degradation, a 9 bar battery simply does not cut it.

 

[edatoakrun]

As part of the conference call, I "think" I have a better understanding of the program preliminary as it is along with some insights to Nissan's thinking process. I only hope that Nissan will take the EV's community's reaction to the announcement into consideration when finalizing the details of the program

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2013/06/nissan-battery-replacement-program.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

="DaveinOlyWA"...No option to buy another pack is a drawback...

Sorry, but that is the greatest understatement of this thread.

I don't believe that my purchase contract, which in the disclosures uses the specific term "replacement cost", gave adequate notice of a future "no option to buy" policy by Nissan, and so, IMO, the contract does not allow Nissan to unilaterally and fundamentally alter the contract terms at a later date, by requiring me to return the battery I paid for and own to Nissan, and enter a battery rental contract in perpetuity, in order to retain my LEAF's functionality.

I like owning what I have paid for when I bought my LEAF, both my LEAF, and the battery in it.

If I am precluded by Nissan's from continuing do so at any point in the future, I expect that I would consider it a violation of the sales contract by Nissan.

 

[surfingslovak]

That was a year and a half ago. Did you also find the press release where they announced the idea died on the vine? Those are harder to find, like snipes.

No I didn't, would you care to post a link? Other OEMs seem to be still pursuing the idea of some secondary use of automotive battery packs. Even if you assume no resale value for the cells, the battery controller and the pack hardware has some value to someone. Like someone who wishes to build a replacement pack for a LEAF. One of the fundamental problems with the perpetual rental scheme is that owners will give up a pack they paid for, and are not getting anything in return. Had the battery been a rental from the initial point of sale, that would be another story.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Vlademar/Dave: I need to get a better answer for that for you on mileage. It's on the list for Q&A. Sorry I can't answer that immediately.

Is the lease termination cost on the list for Q&A?

i suspect that will be there. right now, the announcement has no real concrete details. even the "$100" lease cost is stated as "about $100" so any other details are not available other than there is no "lease termination date" IOW, the lease is designed to run the life of the car.

there is no time frame or mileage limit to enter the lease. you can do it in 2 years (if your mileage is too high for the standard range warranty) or 10 years if you can live with the degradation up to that point.

 

[klapauzius]

To add injury to insult:

From Daves blog post:
" The replacement battery will be one with the most advanced technology available at the time. I could not get Andy to commit to a larger capacity in the future and without a major overhaul (and expense!) of the BMS, that might not be possible "

Not only are we NOT getting a replacement battery to own, we also wont be ever able to upgrade to higher capacity if the technology becomes available.
So essentially, this car has a built-in date of expiry that is FAR less than for any ICE car.

I can see that maybe this is all temporary, after all Nissan responded, after being forced to, to the battery degradation conundrum in hot climates. So maybe things are still in flux and will change for the better. But this (in conjunction with the initial behavior in response to the heat related degradation) is very bad start.
It leaves me with really bad feelings about the product I purchased from Nissan and in consequence about the company itself.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

As part of the conference call, I "think" I have a better understanding of the program preliminary as it is along with some insights to Nissan's thinking process. I only hope that Nissan will take the EV's community's reaction to the announcement into consideration when finalizing the details of the program

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2013/06/nissan-battery-replacement-program.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

="DaveinOlyWA"...No option to buy another pack is a drawback...

Sorry, but that is the greatest understatement of this thread.

I don't believe that my purchase contract, which in the disclosures uses the specific term "replacement cost", gave adequate notice of a future "no option to buy" policy by Nissan, and so, IMO, the contract does not allow Nissan to unilaterally and fundamentally alter the contract terms at a later date, by requiring me to return the battery I paid for and own to Nissan, and enter a battery rental contract in perpetuity, in order to retain my LEAF's functionality.

I like owning what I have paid for when I bought my LEAF, both my LEAF, and the battery in it.

If I am precluded by Nissan's from continuing do so at any point in the future, I expect that I would consider it a violation of the sales contract by Nissan.

ok so you are telling me that you did not know that "batteries do not last forever?"

the battery replacement program is voluntary and allows you to have the latest in battery technology for an older vehicle. your other option is to do what everyone else does when the car no longer fits their needs which is sell it and get a new one.

any missing option is a drawback because that is a certain percentage of owners who do not have that avenue to explore. keep in mind, there will undoubtedly be 3rd party battery pack options out there soon enough. but we are back to getting something for a large chunk of money upfront that has no insurance policy. even the workmanship warranty would not apply for a battery from a 3rd party unless the 3rd party is providing it and they would do so at a cost.

If i was in a position where I saw fast degradation and the likelihood of replacing my pack every 2-4 years, i dont see any other option other than a lease of the battery. this really helps people who purchased being able to keep value in their cars.

now, we dont have specific terms after entering the lease but the concept is still good.

finally; i have to think that there is legal hurdles to overcome and would not be surprised to find that Nissan will not be able to do this leasing program in every state. Just as Tesla has had issues, I think Nissan will too. I cant remember a revolutionary program twist that didnt

 

[surfingslovak]

ok so you are telling me that you did not know that "batteries do not last forever?"

the battery replacement program is voluntary and allows you to have the latest in battery technology for an older vehicle. your other option is to do what everyone else does when the car no longer fits their needs which is sell it and get a new one.

Dave I think the misunderstanding here is that it's a change of ownership model, and some folks might not agree with that for a number of reasons. One obvious one is that they should be allowed to keep or sell the battery they own before entering a battery rental agreement. Another one would be that they had the expectation to own the vehicle outright, and are being denied a battery pack replacement, which would confirm to this ownership model. I think most owners realize that the battery won't last forever, which is one of the very reasons the issue of pack replacement is pursued so vehemently.

 

[vrwl]

So basically, it took them 6+ months to come up with "Yeah, let's do a battery rental deal" and that's it. No concrete details, no forethought about different customer needs (owners vs lessors) , no idea about logistics, no ability to answer questions in any detailed manner. Just kick the problem and the potential answers down the road for another 6+ months while we wait for the information. Ugh, I'm disgusted with Nissan right now.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

To add injury to insult:

From Daves blog post:
" The replacement battery will be one with the most advanced technology available at the time. I could not get Andy to commit to a larger capacity in the future and without a major overhaul (and expense!) of the BMS, that might not be possible "

Not only are we NOT getting a replacement battery to own, we also wont be ever able to upgrade to higher capacity if the technology becomes available.
So essentially, this car has a built-in date of expiry that is FAR less than for any ICE car.

I can see that maybe this is all temporary, after all Nissan responded, after being forced to, to the battery degradation conundrum in hot climates. So maybe things are still in flux and will change for the better. But this (in conjunction with the initial behavior in response to the heat related degradation) is very bad start.
It leaves me with really bad feelings about the product I purchased from Nissan and in consequence about the company itself.

wait a second!! how can you make that concrete statement? NO ONE KNOWS what the future holds. Currently there is no larger capacity battery for the LEAF but that does not mean that in the future, the size/weight cannot be reduced to the point where a larger capacity battery can fit.

It is easy to imagine that Nissan "could" offer a capacity increase with the proper battery innovations but that is most likely going to have other costs associated with it that could require and entire revamping of the BMS which would add a lot of dollars to the bottom line.

 

[Weatherman]

One obvious one is that they should be allowed to keep or sell the battery they own before entering a battery rental agreement.

This would be the deciding factor, for me, in deciding whether this is a good deal or not. If I could buy a LEAF and sell the battery back to Nissan for $10,000, that would comfortably cover the $1,200/year "rental" cost for as long as I, typically, own a car.

Of course, if I buy a LEAF and sell the battery back, do I lose the $7,500 tax credit? If so, then it's not worth it, even if Nissan gave me $10,000 for it.

 

[Nubo]

ok so you are telling me that you did not know that "batteries do not last forever?"

the battery replacement program is voluntary and allows you to have the latest in battery technology for an older vehicle. your other option is to do what everyone else does when the car no longer fits their needs which is sell it and get a new one.

Who am I going to sell it to, once the car has becomed tethered to an endless $100/mo fee? The new owner will have to be satisfied with continuous payments for a 9-bar battery, as so far there's no end in sight and no defined way for them to get a fresh start. I don't think there will be many private owners willing to accept that and I doubt if any non-Nissan dealer would touch it.

 

[Stoaty]

there is no time frame or mileage limit to enter the lease. you can do it in 2 years (if your mileage is too high for the standard range warranty) or 10 years if you can live with the degradation up to that point.

You are missing the point here. We understand there is no mileage limit to enter the "rental", but once you do it was stated that the price to rent would be based on annual mileage limits (costs more to rent if your annual mileage is higher), just like there are mileage limits when leasing a new Leaf.

 

[vrwl]

ok so you are telling me that you did not know that "batteries do not last forever?"

the battery replacement program is voluntary and allows you to have the latest in battery technology for an older vehicle. your other option is to do what everyone else does when the car no longer fits their needs which is sell it and get a new one.

Who am I going to sell it to, once the car has becomed tethered to an endless $100/mo fee? The new owner will have to be satisfied with continuous payments for a 9-bar battery, as so far there's no end in sight and no defined way for them to get a fresh start. I don't think there will be many private owners willing to accept that and I doubt if any non-Nissan dealer would touch it.

+1

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

ok so you are telling me that you did not know that "batteries do not last forever?"

the battery replacement program is voluntary and allows you to have the latest in battery technology for an older vehicle. your other option is to do what everyone else does when the car no longer fits their needs which is sell it and get a new one.

Dave I think the misunderstanding here is that it's a change of ownership model, and some folks might not agree with that for a number of reasons. One obvious one is that they should be allowed to keep or sell the battery they own before entering a battery rental agreement. Another one would be that they had the expectation to own the vehicle outright, and are being denied a battery pack replacement, which would confirm to this ownership model. I think most owners realize that the battery won't last forever, which is one of the very reasons the issue of pack replacement is pursued so vehemently.

i agree that paying a lease on the battery on a used car you buy will both lower and raise the resale value. Now, all contracts can be terminated. you cannot force anyone to pay for life and the details of such a situation are still being hashed out so we can only speculate on that. but what we do know is that entering the lease program, you lose your OEM battery. terminating the lease program means you have a car with no battery. will there be a penalty? i am guessing probably. will you have the option to get a battery elsewhere? of that, I have no doubt. will it be your best option? we shall see.

this really is a dramatic new way of thinking, of that we can all agree and I am not sure i fully understand the overall program or whether i am for it or against it. there is definite benefits and drawbacks that all should consider and like most, i am a fan of options. the more the merrier but at the same time, I see a big risk in buying a battery for a large sum of money with the current technology

 

[JeremyW]

wait a second!! how can you make that concrete statement? NO ONE KNOWS what the future holds

If Nissan doesn't think adding the SOC gauge to the '11 and '12 is "worth it" what makes you think they're going to rise up to provide stunning new BMS and batteries to these older cars, something that's orders of magnitude more difficult with (possibly) little pay out.

Past and present actions are probably a good marker of future actions. :x

 

[GregH]

Why the hell would I want to spend $100. a month on a 10 year old car ? .

Or for that matter $6000-$12000(??) for a new battery for a 10 year old car?

I think that's the main point here.. People want to know how much a new battery is (I do too!) but right now that's a scary number and Nissan is squeamish about publishing it. Ah ha! What if rather than buying a new pack, people were offered the option to lease one? hmmm..

 

[Volusiano]

no mileage limitations, no time limitations. you can enter the lease program at 3 years and 50,000 miles or 10 years and 200,000 miles. In either case, you will get a lease battery with 12 bar capacity and most likely with a chemistry more robust than the OEM battery you replace.

Hmm, perhaps I misread it but I thought it was mentioned here that annual mileage will affect the "subscription" price. If there is no mileage limit I'm in

there is no mileage limit or time frame. you could drive your LEAF until its down to 50% degradation after 10 years, then get a full capacity battery pack with the latest in chemistry. it is really a great program except for that "flat fee" mentality. check out my blog post. Nissan could easily hit a home run by offering a tiered lease program that covers more needs. With Winter range degradation, a 9 bar battery simply does not cut it.

I think you guys are talking apples and oranges here. The original question pertains to the mileage limit AFTER signing up for the rental. Nissan did say there's a limit on how many miles you can put on the rental replacement battery AFTER you sign up. What that limit is hasn't been determined and announced by Nissan yet.

DaveinOlyWA is talking about no limit you already have on your LEAF BEFORE you enter the deal. So you can have a 10 year-old LEAF that's already at 200K miles, and you can still sign up for the deal. But AFTER you sign up for the deal, you will be bound by the new rental mileage limit, whatever that is. So now you will lose your freedom of being to put as many miles as you need on the car like you used to be able to do before you sign up for the plan.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

wait a second!! how can you make that concrete statement? NO ONE KNOWS what the future holds

If Nissan doesn't think adding the SOC gauge to the '11 and '12 is "worth it" what makes you think they're going to rise up to provide stunning new BMS and batteries to these older cars, something that's orders of magnitude more difficult with (possibly) little pay out.

Past and present actions are probably a good marker of future actions. :x

no real data on the lack of SOC on MY 2011-12 but guessing its some sort of unspecified hardware limitation. or simply too tough a software challenge? who knows?

but comparing the two is just a bit beyond me. For under $100 you can get one yourself and before I hear the cries of indignation that Nissan is "forcing" us to pay $100 to get some basic info, lets talk about aftermarket water temp, oil pressure gauges we put into gas cars because of our "wonderfully deep trust" of idiot lights

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

DaveinOlyWA is talking about no limit you already have on your LEAF BEFORE you enter the deal. So you can have a 10 year-old LEAF that's already at 200K miles, and you can still sign up for the deal. But AFTER you sign up for the deal, you will be bound by the new rental mileage limit, whatever that is. So now you will lose your freedom of being to put as many miles as you need on the car like you used to be able to do before you sign up for the plan.

Bingo! as far as the "real" cost of the program or any limitations of the program AFTER entering the program, there was not a single word devoted to that subject here or in our conference call.

I can guess that there will be tiered options (like all leases) for monthly cost and mileage and or time. now, we can hope (and will lobby for)

leases that vary in levels of degradation (although Nissan was pretty insistent on the 9 bar thing but there is still time to change minds here)

there also has to be some sort of termination clause/penalty and a way to enforce it. how they will do it is anyone's guess. i simply do not know enough legal-wise to even begin to guess how they will do it. definitely not speculating on this question as several of my statements have already gone off the rails

FYI; i edited my blog to change some words. keep in mind, i ended a 60 hour work week very late last night and am essentially home for first time is 2½ days for longer than 3 hours (ya, sleep is a luxury!) so the blog was ramblings off the top of my head resulting from the 2 days I have had the info bouncing around in my head. proof reading was brief and all that

 

[surfingslovak]

of SOC on MY 2011-12 but guessing its some sort of unspecified hardware limitation. or simply too tough a software challenge? who knows?

but comparing the two is just a bit beyond me. For under $100 you can get one yourself and before I hear the cries of indignation that Nissan is "forcing" us to pay $100 to get some basic info, lets talk about aftermarket water temp, oil pressure gauges we put into gas cars because of our "wonderfully deep trust" of idiot lights

Dave, sorry, and perhaps I'm misreading your posts, but this does not make sense at all. There are multiple proprietary computers in he LEAF, which some owners have worked hard to gain some understanding of. It won't be possible to upgrade these computers or mate old cars with new parts from more recent model year vehicles. Not unless Nissan had specifically allowed for this in their design.

There was some hope that older cars will be able to install the 6 kW onboard charger, which did not materialize, and it wasn't just because the physical location and design of the charger has changed. There was some hope for software changes, aside from a capacity gauge reprogram, but that has not materialized either.

While there is the theoretical possibility that the hypothetical 32 kWh pack, which Nissan might release in a few years, can be installed in a 2011 MY LEAF, I would personally rate the likelihood of this as very low. It's always good to ask for the moon, with that I agree.

That said, it would be prudent to assume that if someone enters a rental agreement for a part, such as the battery, they can reasonably expect to be given access to same or comparable part for the duration of the lease. While Nissan might tweak the chemistry of the cells, I would not assume that the pack hardware or controller will change in a material way, since it might make the pack incompatible with older cars.