Battery pack add-on for extended range?

[theaveng]

Over on the Prius Plugin forum I see people are adding packs to extend its EV range. One comment was: "I think the extra pack is a nice idea, and you can get them on other cars like the Leaf, but the cost is just really high IMO." ----- So is that true? Leafs can get extra packs?



Read more: http://priuschat.com/threads/adding-extra-4kw-battery-for-more-than-double-plug-in-miles.114724/page-5#ixzz2R82vCzQV" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TomT]

Yep, it has been discussed in detail elsewhere on here...

Over on the Prius Plugin forum I see people are adding packs to extend its EV range. One comment was: "I think the extra pack is a nice idea, and you can get them on other cars like the Leaf, but the cost is just really high IMO." ----- So is that true? Leafs can get extra packs?

 

[theaveng]

(clicks search)
(performs search)
Okay nothing. You claim it's been discussed before, but all I found was my original post plus a lot of nonrelevant posts. Where has this been discussed before?

 

[Stoaty]

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=9798" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6065&start=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

it has been discussed before but we were talking (guessing here but in the ballpark) $6-8,000 to add 20 miles of range. didnt take long for the conversation to die at that price.

 

[BraveLittleToaster]

it has been discussed before but we were talking (guessing here but in the ballpark) $6-8,000 to add 20 miles of range. didnt take long for the conversation to die at that price.

That's funny, Enginer's website for said add-on says "$3,495" for the 4 KWh kit (adds 20 miles or 32 km).

 

[TonyWilliams]

it has been discussed before but we were talking (guessing here but in the ballpark) $6-8,000 to add 20 miles of range. didnt take long for the conversation to die at that price.

That's funny, Enginer's website for said add-on says "$3,495" for the 4 KWh kit (adds 20 miles or 32 km).

And they went bust.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

it has been discussed before but we were talking (guessing here but in the ballpark) $6-8,000 to add 20 miles of range. didnt take long for the conversation to die at that price.

That's funny, Enginer's website for said add-on says "$3,495" for the 4 KWh kit (adds 20 miles or 32 km).

maybe batteries only but I thought there was "other" costs and besides is a 4 KW boost is "all" you need? are we not cherry picking a bit for the sake of argument...

maybe I should be more clear and state that for a "meaningful" boost in range and I do consider a full 20 miles of extra freeway to be meaningful, it would cost 6 to 8 K...

**edit** AND what Tony said

 

[theaveng]

It is most cost-effective to go for the biggest 12 pack (price per KWh added is lowest).

 

[GetOffYourGas]

it has been discussed before but we were talking (guessing here but in the ballpark) $6-8,000 to add 20 miles of range. didnt take long for the conversation to die at that price.

That's funny, Enginer's website for said add-on says "$3,495" for the 4 KWh kit (adds 20 miles or 32 km).

And they went bust.

And then they were bought out by a group in Michigan, and are still making/selling Prius upgrade kits today.

As for the range, let's think about this. 4kWh is 1/6 of a Leaf's battery. If a Leaf gets 72 miles, this would add 72/6 = 12 miles. NOT 20 miles. Yes, I made assumptions, and simplifications, but by the company's own admission, the 20 figure is akin to saying the stock Leaf has 100 miles range.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

And then they were bought out by a group in Michigan, and are still making/selling Prius upgrade kits today.

As for the range, let's think about this. 4kWh is 1/6 of a Leaf's battery. If a Leaf gets 72 miles, this would add 72/6 = 12 miles. NOT 20 miles. Yes, I made assumptions, and simplifications, but by the company's own admission, the 20 figure is akin to saying the stock Leaf has 100 miles range.

ya, you noticed that math "error?" you are close but still not right however.

4 KW added does not equal 4 additional KW to use. Each cell is still under an SOC range limitation

since it is an add on pack, it must maintain its own SOC so it will only have a portion of that charge available for use. dont know what the % is but I do know a few people who have done this and they all state that they dont see anywhere near the claims advertised.

This reason along with the promise of many more plugs is probably the reason why they struggled. I think the reason someone is willing to throw them a lifeline is simply because Auto manufacturers may talk a great game but their execution really sucks.

Toyota and Ford put in plugs and they really only did a marginally better job than Enginer could have done. The promise of a better implemented OEM version simply has not happened.

Toyota's pack is really too small

Ford's pack is a good size but it nearly destroyed storage and utility.

those two reasons were the big knock on Enginer...

 

[GetOffYourGas]

And then they were bought out by a group in Michigan, and are still making/selling Prius upgrade kits today.

As for the range, let's think about this. 4kWh is 1/6 of a Leaf's battery. If a Leaf gets 72 miles, this would add 72/6 = 12 miles. NOT 20 miles. Yes, I made assumptions, and simplifications, but by the company's own admission, the 20 figure is akin to saying the stock Leaf has 100 miles range.

ya, you noticed that math "error?" you are close but still not right however.

4 KW added does not equal 4 additional KW to use. Each cell is still under an SOC range limitation

Yes, I was in a hurry and didn't feel like filling in as much detail as you did. That is exactly why I stated that I made assumptions and simplifications. But look again at my math. I did assume that they have the same percentage of usable capacity as the original battery. That's why I compared the 4kWh to the original 24kWh, and then used that ratio to estimate a range. I also assumed the same efficiency.

EDIT - I just re-read what you wrote. I definitely misread it the first time. Thanks for clarifying, and I need to read a little more carefully

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

EDIT - I just re-read what you wrote. I definitely misread it the first time. Thanks for clarifying, and I need to read a little more carefully

ah dont worry about it. I average about 3 retractions a day from jumping to conclusions or reading half of what is written

either way it really does illustrate that there is not an effective add on pack at this point from anyone. Only Tesla has pulled it off but they did it with the benefit of a large car platform which allows them the extra space. whether you have a 60S with a lot of empty space "somewhere" or an 85 S with "less" empty somewhere, it does not matter because both have ample passenger and storage space

 

[theaveng]

I don't understand Tesla's approach of having thousands of tiny cells. That seems very inefficient and prone to quick failure (if any 1 of those thousands of cells dies, you have a compromised battery).

 

[EVadeCarnot]

I don't understand Tesla's approach of having thousands of tiny cells. That seems very inefficient and prone to quick failure (if any 1 of those thousands of cells dies, you have a compromised battery).

I thank you for qualifying yourself. The Model S pack not only integrates "fuses," but can actually "eject" a bad cell to protect the system. Tesla has done a lot of things (liquid cooling loop, anyone?), but then again, they had to. They chose lithium-cobalt, which other automakers didn't.

Back on topic: this shows that here's one case where systems engineering, done right in the first place, beats hackery. Too bad hackers.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Back on topic: this shows that here's one case where systems engineering, done right in the first place, beats hackery. Too bad hackers.

I liked your liked article:

http://cableflux.wordpress.com/2013/04/14/receptacle-roundup-x-renault-cameleon/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting insight. I thought AC Propulsion patented that charging technology used by Chameleon. Good argument for world wide adoption of Mennekes plugs!!

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Interesting. Had not seen this blog before. You even got a mention at http://cableflux.wordpress.com/2013/02/06/receptacle-roundup-viii-chademo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[TonyWilliams]

^^^
Interesting. Had not seen this blog before. You even got a mention at http://cableflux.wordpress.com/2013/02/06/receptacle-roundup-viii-chademo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

That's fun. I've got a handful of quibbles with this piece; L3 is no longer the correct term from the masters of making life difficult at SAE/GM. Now it's L2-DC.

But, I will likely continue to refer to it as L3 because it makes sense with L1 and L2.

 

[theaveng]

Lithium-cobalt is the same battery used in the Boeing Dreamliner & keeps catching fire. Perhaps I won't go near a Tesla car.

 

[EVadeCarnot]

Lithium-cobalt is the same battery used in the Boeing Dreamliner & keeps catching fire. Perhaps I won't go near a Tesla car.

Boeing has a laundry list of mistakes with their subsystem. Off the top of my head:

-No active, liquid cooling, despite the likelihood of sitting in bare hangars or on desert tarmac
-MUCH larger individual cells- much more likely to get out of hand (had some insulation in between, now getting more)
-Parallel cells, in one serial string- the opposite of what EV makers do
-Overall design frozen in 2007, when lithium vendors were still getting their act together (OK, partly due to aircraft certification requirements)

This is all in addition to speculation on the inner workings of the "jelly roll" cells, and the charge controller, and overcharging. Overall, there's a bunch of stuff we'd change with our 2013 hindsight; Boeing's mistake was in not owning up and tossing the "obsolete" (wow, didn't think I'd say that) design. Kinda makes me sympathetic for Toyota, telling us all to wait on lithium Priuses all those years.