An aftermarket kit to improve charging to 6.6kW

[Deleted member 3147]

Nevermind. Misread previous post.

 

[GeekEV]

Yeah, the hypothetical $2k price point sounds appealing to me too... How many would it take?

 

[Volusiano]

If L2 stations are ubiquitous (not even close to it at present time)

LOL, you have tons of chargers in Phoenix ( http://www.recargo.com/search?search=Phoenix%2C+AZ&commit=+++SEARCH+++" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ).

Still not enough. None at the malls, which I find surprising.

 

[KevinSharpe]

This of course can be done, but expect a 43kW system to cost a minimum of $20k plus and be prepared to lose your cargo capacity.

With respect, this must be possible because the Renault ZOE is both low cost and has plenty of cargo capacity for a mid-sized European car. I appreciate we are comparing apples with oranges when comparing OEM against aftermarket, but in Europe a 22kW or 43kW AC solution would transform the Leaf because those Charging Stations will be everywhere

I must say that charging at 32A (~7kW) transforms my EV driving because I can undertake decent range extension during any morning or afternoon activity.

As you can see, the ZOE has both decent rear seats and a boot

 

[EVDRIVER]

Kevin, a ZOE is not a LEAF, he is talking about adding that charger to an existing LEAF.

 

[KevinSharpe]

Kevin, a ZOE is not a LEAF, he is talking about adding that charger to an existing LEAF.

correct... but I'm just pointing out that the ZOE can support 43kW AC charging without it costing $20K or using up all the cargo capacity.

Maybe the solution is to get more radical with the Leaf upgrade given it will invalidate the warranty anyway :?:

It's worth remembering that the 22kW BRUSA NLG6 is expected to resale for around €1000 (~$1200)

 

[TonyWilliams]

Ok, there is hope for a fast onboard charger. Phil compared the Andromeda unit for size / weight, and the good news is that it "ain't that big and heavy".

Because it uses no traditional heavy transformers, most of the bulk and weight is an aluminum heat sinks (cut out of a large chunk of AL). The actual power switching transistors, computer, and other hardware need little space, so the AL heat sink might be replaced with a water cooled one (just like the existing charger).

 

[jpokoraw1]

By saying, "fast on board charger" are you talking about something for the European market? From what I understand (which is very little... I'm learning ) US outlets serve out single phase 110v or 220v outlets. There isn't much use for an inboard charger at that high a scale since there isn't anything worth while to plug into... is that right?

 

[walterbays]

3.3kW is faster than most need for overnight charging at home. 6.6kW is still too slow for en route charging. In many cases workplace charging at 3.3kW would finish well before the workday was over, and people have to go move their car to allow others to charge. Instead of one L2 charging station that several cars shuffle around to use, a company might be better off buying a dozen L1 electrical outlets that cars can stay plugged into all day. From fear of heat degrading batteries we have people in Phoenix talking about charging at home on L1 instead of L2 to keep the battery cooler. So maybe Nissan got it just about right in the first place, with 3.3kW for routine overnight charging and QC for occasional en route charging.

The only place 6.6kW would be clearly better is opportunity charging. At 3.3kW where one hour gives you 12 miles of range, when you go shop for an hour it's break-even to go 6 miles out of your way to prefer one merchant who offers charging over another who does not. At 6.6kW it could be worth it to go up to 12 miles out of your way.

A 6.6kW charger would be more compelling if you could switch it between 6.6kW and 3.3kW for those times when you don't need the higher speed and would prefer a cooler battery.

 

[EVDRIVER]

3.3kW is faster than most need for overnight charging at home. 6.6kW is still too slow for en route charging. In many cases workplace charging at 3.3kW would finish well before the workday was over, and people have to go move their car to allow others to charge. Instead of one L2 charging station that several cars shuffle around to use, a company might be better off buying a dozen L1 electrical outlets that cars can stay plugged into all day. From fear of heat degrading batteries we have people in Phoenix talking about charging at home on L1 instead of L2 to keep the battery cooler. So maybe Nissan got it just about right in the first place, with 3.3kW for routine overnight charging and QC for occasional en route charging.

The only place 6.6kW would be clearly better is opportunity charging. At 3.3kW where one hour gives you 12 miles of range, when you go shop for an hour it's break-even to go 6 miles out of your way to prefer one merchant who offers charging over another who does not. At 6.6kW it could be worth it to go up to 12 miles out of your way.

A 6.6kW charger would be more compelling if you could switch it between 6.6kW and 3.3kW for those times when you don't need the higher speed and would prefer a cooler battery.

Switching is a matter of a button on the dash since its all software. 6.6kw is more than 2x faster and it makes a big difference in opportunity charging.

 

[KevinSharpe]

By saying, "fast on board charger" are you talking about something for the European market? From what I understand (which is very little... I'm learning ) US outlets serve out single phase 110v or 220v outlets. There isn't much use for an inboard charger at that high a scale since there isn't anything worth while to plug into... is that right?

In Europe we have a network of 22kW and 43kW AC Charging Stations developing. In the US you already have some 16kW (70A) J1772 and Tesla HPC's that you can use with a suitable adapter. Every dryer socket and RV park is also a potential 9kW (40A) charging source

I think the Tesla modular charging system is very smart... with 10kW increments you can match the vehicle to your charging requirements and 'local' infrastructure.

 

[planet4ever]

Every dryer socket and RV park is also a potential 9kW (40A) charging source

In the US, dryer sockets are only 30A, which has to be downrated to 24A for continuous duty, so the fastest charging they can support at 240v is 5.76kW input to the charger -- under 5kW to the battery. But, yes, many if not most RV parks have 50A 240v sockets, which are 40A continuous. Those would be good for at least 8kW (but not 9kW) to the battery.

I am right, am I not, that the chargers are rated by what they can deliver, not what they consume? I'm sure I've read on this board that our current 3.3kW charger can pull up to 3.84kW (e.g. 16A at 240v) from the wall.

Ray

 

[TonyWilliams]

I am right, am I not, that the chargers are rated by what they can deliver, not what they consume? I'm sure I've read on this board that our current 3.3kW charger can pull up to 3.84kW (e.g. 16A at 240v) from the wall.

Ray

Yep.

I wonder if the Tesla charger (specifically in the Rav4) will only operate at 10kW, or if it will more logically operate at whatever the EVSE tells it. For example, a 10kW charger should pull about 45 amps continuos (11kW at 90% efficiency) which is too much for a 50 amp breaker. I'd like to pull 40 amps.

 

[TEG]

I wonder if the Tesla charger (specifically in the Rav4) will only operate at 10kW, or if it will more logically operate at whatever the EVSE tells it. For example, a 10kW charger should pull about 45 amps continuos (11kW at 90% efficiency) which is too much for a 50 amp breaker. I'd like to pull 40 amps.

Yes, it will only "pull" what the EVSE said it is supposed to pull. That same 10kW charger module will work just fine to do 12A@120V charging, 24A@240V, etc...

 

[Deleted member 3147]

I wonder if the Tesla charger (specifically in the Rav4) will only operate at 10kW, or if it will more logically operate at whatever the EVSE tells it. For example, a 10kW charger should pull about 45 amps continuos (11kW at 90% efficiency) which is too much for a 50 amp breaker. I'd like to pull 40 amps.

Yes, it will only "pull" what the EVSE said it is supposed to pull. That same 10kW charger module will work just fine to do 12A@120V charging, 24A@240V, etc...

Since they sell adapters for J1772 charging, the must limit to the EVSE pilot signal to be J1772 compliant!

 

[jkirkebo]

But, yes, many if not most RV parks have 50A 240v sockets, which are 40A continuous. Those would be good for at least 8kW (but not 9kW) to the battery.

240V*40A=9.6kW
208V*40A=8.3kW

So it depends on the power supply being delivered from three phase or split phase. In the case of RV parks I'm quite sure it's split phase since the RVs also want 120V. Thus, the max is 9.6kW.

But you wouldn't pop any breakers by utilizing the full 10kW that a Tesla charger can draw. 10kW/240V=41.7A. Though I think the UMC is restricted to 40A...

 

[Rusty]

So it depends on the power supply being delivered from three phase or split phase. In the case of RV parks I'm quite sure it's split phase since the RVs also want 120V. Thus, the max is 9.6kW.

I'm not sure I follow you justification that RVs must be 2-phase.

My understanding is that with 3-phase power, each of the phases is still 120V referenced to neutral. But with a 120° offset between the phases (instead of the 180° offset of 2-phase) that yields 208V potential between each of the legs instead of 240V. So a 3-phase plug can provide 120V exactly as easily as a 2-phase plug can (or easier - you get three legs of it instead of two, so a 50A 3-phase plug has 50% more wattage available at 120V than a 50A 2-phase plug does).

That all said, I have *no* idea what's most commonly available at RV parks. If it's 3-phase than the most you can pull from a 50A plug is ~8.3kW w/ 3Ø and ~9.6kW w/ 2Ø. What gets through the EVSE and charger and actually to the battery is anybody's guess. Mine would be able 90% of that, at best.

 

[TonyWilliams]

RV parks are using 120 volt 15 / 20 / 30 amp service single phase, therefore would not typically be using anything other than 240 volts for their 50 amp service. Not to say it can't happen, but I doubt even a few RV parks have 3 phase. The RVs could not use 208 volt anyway, since the components are 120v (air conditioning, etc).

Note to EV drivers: don't ask an RV park if they have 120 volt or 240 volt service. They only know it by amps; 15, 20, and 30 amps is 120v (all good for a LEAF drawing the stock 12 amps at 120 volts). The 50 amp service is always 240v, and good for virtually any electric car.

Also, don't ask for a place to charge your electric car, because the next thing out of their mouth will be that they don't have car chargers. Better to just confirm the applicable amp rating you need, and when they confirm that they have an available spot for 50 amp service, THEN ask them how much to use it for XX hours to only charge your EV. That keeps the "no's" low.

Also, if you bump into the "EV are dangerous 'cuz people will trip over cord, uses lots of power, etc", just reply that it uses the same type of cord that people have been tripping over every day with the dozens of RV's at your campground (or the EV uses no more power than any RV).

 

[planet4ever]

But, yes, many if not most RV parks have 50A 240v sockets, which are 40A continuous. Those would be good for at least 8kW (but not 9kW) to the battery.

240V*40A=9.6kW
In the case of RV parks I'm quite sure it's split phase since the RVs also want 120V. Thus, the max is 9.6kW.

9.6kW to the charger, 8+kW to the battery. To repeat myself in different words, a 9.6kW charger would be one that can supply 9.6kW to the battery. It couldn't actually supply that unless it was pulling at least 10.7kW from the wall (or the RV supply post in this case).

Ray

 

[hill]

Just as cel phones continue to shrink - so have the Chademo's. The smallest now are about the size of 2 tall fire hydrants stacked one on top of the other ... or about 1/5 the volume of a residential fridge. Now, if we can just get them to INSTALL a few, we may be on to some thing.
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