All "Future" battery technology thread

[GRA]

I asked Masato Inoue chief designer of the leaf what he thought about all of the battery research that is going on and all of the announcements about battery revolutions. He said that for the past 10 years he has been told a battery revolution is coming in 5 years and is always 5 years away. Masato is of the opinon there will only be evolution not revolution.

Pretty much like fusion energy is twenty years away, and (probably) always will be :!:

 

[Reddy]

From Green Car Congress a couple of days ago, very interesting:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/06/new-ornl-li-sulfur-battery.html
4x energy density, high conductivity, cyclibility, no flammable solvents, etc.

 

[Sublime]

Green Car Congress: New organogel electrolyte for Li-ion batteries offers ionic conductivity close to liquid electrolytes, with thermal stability
A research team at Ulsan National Institute of Science and Technology (UNIST), S. Korea, has found a new physical organogel polymer electrolyte for lithium-ion batteries (LIBs) with two novel characteristics: an irreversible thermal gelation and a high value of the Li+ transference number.

Pretty neat. Gives you the best of both worlds. Close to the ionic conductivity of a liquid electrolyte while being able to be extremely thin like a solid electrolyte. Plus the longevity and safety of a solid.

 

[Sublime]

Exciting article about the state of OXIS's Li-S batteries. They sound a lot closer to prime time than I thought.

http://www.hybridcars.com/oxis-jump-starts-first-commercialization-of-lithium-sulfur-batteries/

Cliffnotes:
* Current prototypes are showing very little capacity loss after 600 full cycles (this extrapolates to an estimated 1800 cycles before capacity reduces to 80%)
* Full charge/discharge doesn't appear to effect them like it does current li-ion chemistries
* Current energy density of pouch cells is 200Wh/kg and expected to increase 20% year over year. Double that in 3-5 years.
* Manufacturing process shares many similarities with current li-ion chemistries.
* Cost of materials similar to LiFePO4

 

[mkjayakumar]

After all the bombastic claims from Envia Systems, I am very very skeptical of these reports, although this one doesn't have any lofty energy densities. Not a peep from Envia in the last 18 months since their too good to be true 400wh/Kg claim.

 

[Sublime]

After all the bombastic claims from Envia Systems, I am very very skeptical of these reports, although this one doesn't have any lofty energy densities. Not a beep from Envia in the last 18 months since their too good to be true 400wh/Kg claim.

My understanding is that Envia licensed tech from Argonne and was working on the manufacturing process. Oxis seems to be doing their own research and contracting with GP batteries for the manufacturing. In other words, Envia always seemed like a marketing company to me, Oxis seems like a research company.

 

[GRA]

Until any of these companies have a product available for sale, AFAIC it's all just vaporware. I could re-paper my walls with all the "We intend to start battery production in X months" press releases, from companies never heard from again unless it's to announce bankruptcy.

 

[Sublime]

Until any of these companies have a product available for sale, AFAIC it's all just vaporware. I could re-paper my walls with all the "We intend to start battery production in X months" press releases, from companies never heard from again unless it's to announce bankruptcy.

I think you're looking for the "All current battery technology thread" then


Two videos from Oxis. One showing a puncture test and the other showing a shorted cell test. The puncture test is neat to watch the cobalt cell turn to smoke. The shorted cell test, shows they have they a long way to go when it comes to power density.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUpwtKGAK0Y[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsEdDifnZ7o[/youtube]

 

[GRA]

Until any of these companies have a product available for sale, AFAIC it's all just vaporware. I could re-paper my walls with all the "We intend to start battery production in X months" press releases, from companies never heard from again unless it's to announce bankruptcy.

I think you're looking for the "All current battery technology thread" then

Pretty much. After posting numerous links to press releases from Envia et al via GCC, I just decided that they needed to 'show me the money' from there on out before I'd bother mentioning them here. AFAIC, a press release forecasting a start of production date and $5 will buy you an espresso.

 

[mkjayakumar]

Somehow Envia smells and sounds like a fraud to lure in investors and they have been busted.. and so they have gone quiet..

 

[Desertstraw]

Sometimes, you have to go across the border to get the skinny on what's happening in the US. For example, did you know GM might be testing electric cars with batteries that have about three times the energy density of today's EV?

That's could be the case, since during the recent Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association conference in Canada, The Windsor Star reporter Chris Vander Doelen spoke with J. Gary Smyth, General Motors' executive director of Global Research and Development. Smyth told Vander Doelen, "Today there are prototypes out there with 400 Watt-hours per kilogram."

We have to assume Smyth was talking about batteries made by Envia, which announced it had developed just such batteries last year (and sent along the nifty cartoon image you see above). GM invested $7 million in the company in 2011 and also made a separate licensing deal to use those advanced packs in its vehicles. While we don't know the details of what kinds of vehicles are being tested with the 400 wh/kg packs in – Smyth would not even mention the brand – but we have previously calculated that that kind of power could mean 300-mile EVs. And earlier estimates put the cost of such a car with Envia's technology at just $20,000, giving more heft to Smyth's statement to Vander Doelen that, "Innovation is exploding right now. The industry is in a period of rapid transformation."
News Source: The Windsor Star via Hybrid Cars

 

[GRA]

Sometimes, you have to go across the border to get the skinny on what's happening in the US. For example, did you know GM might be testing electric cars with batteries that have about three times the energy density of today's EV?

That's could be the case, since during the recent Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association conference in Canada, The Windsor Star reporter Chris Vander Doelen spoke with J. Gary Smyth, General Motors' executive director of Global Research and Development. Smyth told Vander Doelen, "Today there are prototypes out there with 400 Watt-hours per kilogram."

We have to assume Smyth was talking about batteries made by Envia, which announced it had developed just such batteries last year (and sent along the nifty cartoon image you see above). GM invested $7 million in the company in 2011 and also made a separate licensing deal to use those advanced packs in its vehicles. While we don't know the details of what kinds of vehicles are being tested with the 400 wh/kg packs in – Smyth would not even mention the brand – but we have previously calculated that that kind of power could mean 300-mile EVs. And earlier estimates put the cost of such a car with Envia's technology at just $20,000, giving more heft to Smyth's statement to Vander Doelen that, "Innovation is exploding right now. The industry is in a period of rapid transformation."
News Source: The Windsor Star via Hybrid Cars

Uh huh. And when a major auto manufacturer is willing to announce that such batteries will be for sale in an actual named car model within say 6 months, I'll be the first to mention it.

 

[Nubo]

We have to assume Smyth was talking about batteries made by Envia, which announced it had developed just such batteries last year (and sent along the nifty cartoon image you see above).

I don't see any nifty cartoon image above.

Please make it clear when you are cutting and pasting. Use quotes, or the QUOTE tags, and give a link to the entire article, or some other attribution.

Otherwise it's like you're saying "I wrote this".

 

[Desertstraw]

We have to assume Smyth was talking about batteries made by Envia, which announced it had developed just such batteries last year (and sent along the nifty cartoon image you see above).

I don't see any nifty cartoon image above.

Please make it clear when you are cutting and pasting. Use quotes, or the QUOTE tags, and give a link to the entire article, or some other attribution.

Otherwise it's like you're saying "I wrote this".

What do you think that this, "News Source: The Windsor Star via Hybrid Cars", means?

 

[LEAFfan]

Just as some of us have surmised, Nissan will have a new battery chemistry for the 2015 LEAF that will go at least 150 miles and be able to withstand high heat over time and or from charging without TMS or liquid cooling. The tech that replaced my nozzle and cord said he has seen them testing this new pack here for over a year and he was told that it will be ready for the 2015 LEAF. I was told last year by a Nissan Exec exactly what the ECOtality tech told me several days ago, except the Exec didn't tell me they were being tested here already. It very well could be NEC's Sulfer LIon battery.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Just as some of us have surmised, Nissan will have a new battery chemistry for the 2015 LEAF that will go at least 150 miles and be able to withstand high heat over time and or from charging without TMS or liquid cooling. The tech that replaced my nozzle and cord said he has seen them testing this new pack here for over a year and he was told that it will be ready for the 2015 LEAF. I was told last year by a Nissan Exec exactly what the ECOtality tech told me several days ago, except the Exec didn't tell me they were being tested here already. It very well could be NEC's Sulfer LIon battery.

Is this new news? Is this tech someone who should know or is it a dealer type tech who doesn't know much. Which Nissan exec?

 

[EVDRIVER]

If this were true I certainly hope it also comes with a completely redesigned LEAF as well.

 

[Sublime]

Just as some of us have surmised, Nissan will have a new battery chemistry for the 2015 LEAF that will go at least 150 miles and be able to withstand high heat over time and or from charging without TMS or liquid cooling. The tech that replaced my nozzle and cord said he has seen them testing this new pack here for over a year and he was told that it will be ready for the 2015 LEAF. I was told last year by a Nissan Exec exactly what the ECOtality tech told me several days ago, except the Exec didn't tell me they were being tested here already. It very well could be NEC's Sulfer LIon battery.

I'd expect the ecotality people to know if nissan is testing a 40kWh LEAF, since that amount of charge shouldn't happen via Chademo currently.

 

[GRA]

Just as some of us have surmised, Nissan will have a new battery chemistry for the 2015 LEAF that will go at least 150 miles and be able to withstand high heat over time and or from charging without TMS or liquid cooling. The tech that replaced my nozzle and cord said he has seen them testing this new pack here for over a year and he was told that it will be ready for the 2015 LEAF. I was told last year by a Nissan Exec exactly what the ECOtality tech told me several days ago, except the Exec didn't tell me they were being tested here already. It very well could be NEC's Sulfer LIon battery.

While they may claim that the chemistry can withstand high heat without a liquid-cooled TMS, who's going to take _their_ word for it this time around? :roll:

 

[RegGuheert]

Just as some of us have surmised, Nissan will have a new battery chemistry for the 2015 LEAF that will go at least 150 miles and be able to withstand high heat over time and or from charging without TMS or liquid cooling. The tech that replaced my nozzle and cord said he has seen them testing this new pack here for over a year and he was told that it will be ready for the 2015 LEAF. I was told last year by a Nissan Exec exactly what the ECOtality tech told me several days ago, except the Exec didn't tell me they were being tested here already. It very well could be NEC's Sulfer LIon battery.

While quite different from what I think NEC is doing, it seems there is work being done on Li-sulfur batteries with a solid electrolyte at Oak Ridge National Laboratory:

The new ionically-conductive cathode enabled the ORNL battery to maintain a capacity of 1200 milliamp-hours (mAh) per gram after 300 charge-discharge cycles at 60 degrees Celsius. For comparison, a traditional lithium-ion battery cathode has an average capacity between 140-170 mAh/g. Because lithium-sulfur batteries deliver about half the voltage of lithium-ion versions, this eight-fold increase in capacity demonstrated in the ORNL battery cathode translates into four times the gravimetric energy density of lithium-ion technologies, explained Liang.

The team’s all-solid design also increases battery safety by eliminating flammable liquid electrolytes that can react with lithium metal. Chief among the ORNL battery’s other advantages is its use of elemental sulfur, a plentiful industrial byproduct of petroleum processing.

Four times the energy density, better safety and excellent cycling capabilities at high temperature sound like the kinds of features needed in an EV battery for use without a TMS. The missing specification in this press release seems to be specific power. I wonder where that is right now.

Edit: Here is an older article on Phys.org which talks more about the solid electrolyte and how its feasibility for large-scale manufacturability. Very interesting!