9/17/13: ECOtality files for bankrupcy and gets Nissan loan

[user 10599]

I must say I saw bankruptcy coming. The news articles of them struggling gave a good indication. The clincher - I've been trying to be a customer for over a month. Two requests and two follow up contacts to customer support and still no cards. :x They didn't even bother to respond to the second contact. Most customers in normal markets wouldn't have given a company that much of a chance to get their business. When a company is unable or unwilling to setup a customer, it's hard to have much revenue. No revenue and high expenses equals failure real fast. And that equation doesn't require my degree in accounting to understand. :ugeek:

On the plus side, the loan from Nissan can make quite a difference. You have to remember that the bankruptcy filing tends to take care of much of the existing debt. To get out of debt and get new funding can really help, especially if the Nissan funding has strings attached that force the company to actually provide service to customers.

I hope it turns around. It seems that Blink has a lock on 90% of the chargers in my area and I would like to be able to charge when I'm out and about.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I hope you are correct, it would be a very smart move for Nissan to yank every L3 that they reasonably can and replace them with Sumitomo's. trying to make the current L3's reliable would be like trying to polish a turd... I would imagine that having all those contracts has got to be worth quite a bit. the many hours it takes to scout and land those would give Nissan a big leg up if they were going to go for managing their own charging network. this should be interesting.

Nissan didn't "loan" the money without expecting a VERY favorable outcome for themselves in bankruptcy.

The smart money is a Tesla like plan. They could replace all the DC chargers with the Sumitomo units, and even smarter would be to make the Sumitomos have communication between each other so that they can have a 62.5kW max combined power draw (what the Blink units have), and place two Sumitomo units at every Blink site that is rational. Abandon the silly sites that are locked behind fences, are not open 24 hours, etc.

The sky is the limit, but I fear a less than ambitious outcome.

 

[reeler]

Nissan should buy out ECOtality, the dealer-installed stations, and all the other charging networks that have died. Then offer a $500 add on when purchasing the car for unlimited charging. Maybe free at the higher trim levels.

If Nissan doesn't buy-up and consolidate these networks, someone else will after the initial investors loose their shirts through bankruptcy. This will be like how the paid WiFi networks evolved into just a few major players.

 

[ObjetDart]

L2 is not really going to help balance that equation much. It is simply too slow, even with a 6kw charger... And at a buck an hour, too expensive. L3 is far more practical, IMHO.

Unfortunately Blink just started charging $5 per QC (at least here in the PNW) which now makes L3 too expensive as well except for emergencies. Hopefully if Nissan or some other entity acquires the Blink network they will quickly re-evaluate that pricing model.

 

[dm33]

L2 is not really going to help balance that equation much. It is simply too slow, even with a 6kw charger... And at a buck an hour, too expensive. L3 is far more practical, IMHO.

Unfortunately Blink just started charging $5 per QC (at least here in the PNW) which now makes L3 too expensive as well except for emergencies. Hopefully if Nissan or some other entity acquires the Blink network they will quickly re-evaluate that pricing model.

L2 at $1/hr works for me because its cheaper than gas. I can get 30 mile range for $1.

$5 for a QC doesn't make financial sense to me. If I get 50% charge, say max 50 miles, its just not worth $5 to go that distance. I'd take our gasser instead.

 

[Randy]

What makes the deal a little more complex is exactly what a buyer of ECOtality is actually buying....

On 12/31/13, all of the Level 2 charging equipment and backend infrastructure changes ownership and will belong to the individual hosts. The DC Fast Charge equipment has a longer period before transition.

So, would you be buying the "locations"? The wiring and EVSEs will eventually belong to the hosts...

Maybe the buyer can swing a deal with ambivalent hosts to own and operate the equipment and take the host "off the hook"....

 

[walterbays]

Maybe the buyer can swing a deal with ambivalent hosts to own and operate the equipment and take the host "off the hook"....

That seems like a better deal for hosts than spending years in court sorting out whether the Ecotality contracts still hold. http://bankruptcy.cooley.com/2007/0...n-on-bankruptcy-contract-clauses-enforceable/

Another deal the new owner might negotiate would be to do billing and maintenance for the hosts who would own the equipment, like Chargepoint. It's not clear though whether either the new owner or the hosts would want to assume the maintenance of Blink equipment. A new owner of Blink, though, could maintain a big network of stations by running them until they break, and then instead of attempting to repair them, swap them out for new units. That would spread the expense of replacing the Blink equipment out over several years.

 

[cwerdna]

L2 is not really going to help balance that equation much. It is simply too slow, even with a 6kw charger... And at a buck an hour, too expensive. L3 is far more practical, IMHO.

Unfortunately Blink just started charging $5 per QC (at least here in the PNW) which now makes L3 too expensive as well except for emergencies. Hopefully if Nissan or some other entity acquires the Blink network they will quickly re-evaluate that pricing model.

L2 at $1/hr works for me because its cheaper than gas. I can get 30 mile range for $1.

$5 for a QC doesn't make financial sense to me. If I get 50% charge, say max 50 miles, its just not worth $5 to go that distance. I'd take our gasser instead.

Yep, agree w/the argument re: the PNW given that electricity is cheap there vs. much of CA being a ripoff.

The argument has been made many times here on MNL about QCing vs. "Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM)". One of them were the posts around http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=285012#p285012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[DaveEV]

The smart money is a Tesla like plan. They could replace all the DC chargers with the Sumitomo units, and even smarter would be to make the Sumitomos have communication between each other so that they can have a 62.5kW max combined power draw (what the Blink units have), and place two Sumitomo units at every Blink site that is rational. Abandon the silly sites that are locked behind fences, are not open 24 hours, etc.

Yeah, having two plugs limited to 50 kW combined would be smart. Does Evoasis have anything like that planned?

L2 is not really going to help balance that equation much. It is simply too slow. And at a buck and hour, too expensive.

I find $1/hour quite reasonable even at 208V/16A. Even though that is only 3.3 kWh/hour, that comes out to $0.30/kWh which about the same as the retail price of electricity around here - so I fail to understand how one (especially a California resident) can call it unreasonable. The only thing unreasonable is charging by the hour instead of charging by smaller increments, preferably by the minute even for L2, but I would be OK if L2 was charged in 15 minute increments. If you're running multiple errands a couple of 15-30 minute stops is enough to extend your range a decent amount, especially if you have 30A charging.

Then offer a $500 add on when purchasing the car for unlimited charging. Maybe free at the higher trim levels.

The problem with "unlimited charging" is that all the leaches will come out and hog them leaving them unusable when you need them. Tesla is already seeing this at Supercharger locations in/near populated areas.

$5 for a QC doesn't make financial sense to me. If I get 50% charge, say max 50 miles, its just not worth $5 to go that distance. I'd take our gasser instead.

That's like 10c / mile or at $4/gallon the same as 40 mpg. Are you really going to drive your 50 mpg Prius 100 miles instead of your LEAF 100 miles on $5 of QC juice just because the incremental cost (and not the average cost) of fueling the LEAF for half of your trip costs more than driving the Prius? Here's a hint - you will pay $8 to drive the Prius and only about $7 to drive the LEAF 100 miles!

But hey - don't worry - It's not like Ecotality is going bankrupt partially because people are penny wise and pound foolish (ok, there are other reasons too). Once Ecotality is done you won't even have the choice but to drive the gasser on trips that exceed the range of your LEAF and you don't have the time to sit around to wait for L2.

Yep, agree w/the argument re: the PNW given that electricity is cheap there vs. much of CA being a ripoff.

Easy to say when the PNW has huge amounts of virtually free hydro power and the bulk of CA's electricity is from much more expensive natural gas. CA also has the disadvantage of much lower electricity use per capita so this makes electricity more expensive - distributing electricity costs basically the same whether you use 500 kWh / month or 1000 kWh / month so distribution costs are much higher in California. Total electric bills in California are not much different than other states.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The smart money is a Tesla like plan. They could replace all the DC chargers with the Sumitomo units, and even smarter would be to make the Sumitomos have communication between each other so that they can have a 62.5kW max combined power draw (what the Blink units have), and place two Sumitomo units at every Blink site that is rational. Abandon the silly sites that are locked behind fences, are not open 24 hours, etc.

Yeah, having two plugs limited to 50 kW combined would be smart. Does Evoasis have anything like that planned?

Multiple DC chargers, yes. Communication between the two, not currently possible with Fuji.

 

[Deleted member 8423]

Hopefully they will fire all the management first and then go from there.

Eh, they at least need to keep the folks that were able to present a poorly thought through business plan to someone that was willing to give them countless millions of dollars.

So if the ownership for equipment at each site reverts back to the site owners, is there some sort of transition plan to basically remove these units from the network? Or was it a part of their plan all along to try to negotiate recurring monitoring/billing/maintenance fees for each site?

Since so much govt money went into funding this, I hope there's an option where the feds could take at least temporary management of the network while a sale/transfer of assets is negotiated. It would be a real shame if the whole thing was shut down.

 

[Jim66]

+1

L2 is not really going to help balance that equation much. It is simply too slow. And at a buck and hour, too expensive.

I find $1/hour quite reasonable even at 208V/16A. Even though that is only 3.3 kWh/hour, that comes out to $0.30/kWh which about the same as the retail price of electricity around here - so I fail to understand how one (especially a California resident) can call it unreasonable. The only thing unreasonable is charging by the hour instead of charging by smaller increments, preferably by the minute even for L2, but I would be OK if L2 was charged in 15 minute increments. If you're running multiple errands a couple of 15-30 minute stops is enough to extend your range a decent amount, especially if you have 30A charging.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Hopefully they will fire all the management first and then go from there.

Eh, they at least need to keep the folks that were able to present a poorly thought through business plan to someone that was willing to give them countless millions of dollars.

So if the ownership for equipment at each site reverts back to the site owners, is there some sort of transition plan to basically remove these units from the network? Or was it a part of their plan all along to try to negotiate recurring monitoring/billing/maintenance fees for each site?

Since so much govt money went into funding this, I hope there's an option where the feds could take at least temporary management of the network while a sale/transfer of assets is negotiated. It would be a real shame if the whole thing was shut down.

All joking aside, I think part of their plan was to push ads to their their LCD screens to generate revenue. Regardless, the culture and practices of the company has had a poor reputation in the industry to say the least.

 

[davewill]

Could be a business opportunity for someone who whips up a Blink refit for the site owners who find themselves owning a boat anchor when either their Blink dies, or the network goes away.

 

[phxsmiley]

This is a pretty interesting article that gives more information about how the company was formed. They report that Ecotality has multiple buyers interested in the company, once it has declared bankruptcy.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/news/articles/20130917e-car-charger-company-ecotality-files-bankruptcy.html#protected" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[FairwoodRed]

This is a pretty interesting article that gives more information about how the company was formed. They report that Ecotality has multiple buyers interested in the company, once it has declared bankruptcy.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/news/articles/20130917e-car-charger-company-ecotality-files-bankruptcy.html#protected" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This part is worrying

Because the bankruptcy also constitutes a breach of contract with participants in the EV Project, the company could be asked to remove some of the thousands of chargers it has installed, according to court documents.

How many of those thousands of chargers are in residences? This makes me happier that I did not extend my EV Project participation.

 

[TomT]

All you have to do is pull two internal connectors and it becomes your basic dumb EVSE...

Could be a business opportunity for someone who whips up a Blink refit for the site owners who find themselves owning a boat anchor when either their Blink dies, or the network goes away.

 

[TomT]

I pay about 8 cents a Kwh on the LADWP EV rate so I'm spoiled...

Even though that is only 3.3 kWh/hour, that comes out to $0.30/kWh which about the same as the retail price of electricity around here - so I fail to understand how one (especially a California resident) can call it unreasonable.

 

[phxsmiley]

All you have to do is pull two internal connectors and it becomes your basic dumb EVSE...

Could be a business opportunity for someone who whips up a Blink refit for the site owners who find themselves owning a boat anchor when either their Blink dies, or the network goes away.

Exactly what I'm ready to do. I've bookmarked the directions for this at: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtop...ink+dumb&sid=fea44efa4ede825b9afc9efaf5418a96

It's surprising that they couldn't work out the advertising side of the Blink units. I believe I saw one DC charger displaying an ad on their large screens, but for the most part I've just seen the instructional videos. Their L2 units don't seem like they would work out for advertising - screen is so small and really hard to read in daylight. Volta has starting putting their chargers in the Phoenix area, and they have obvious and large advertising capabilities, and that appears to be part of their business model - free charging, paid with advertising.

 

[surfingslovak]

This is a pretty interesting article that gives more information about how the company was formed. They report that Ecotality has multiple buyers interested in the company, once it has declared bankruptcy.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/news/articles/20130917e-car-charger-company-ecotality-files-bankruptcy.html#protected" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Very helpful, thanks for posting. The former eTec engineers I had a chance to talk to last year did not have a very favorable opinion of ECOtality, to put it mildly. Their company was acquired by ECOtality so that the combined entity could compete for the EV Project more effectively. Sadly, the DOE not only awarded them the project, and paid all the funds, they apparently still don’t find anything wrong with ECOtality’s work. If this company was a little bit better managed, listened to their engineers more instead of making them quit, and did a better job overall, it would have had a tremendous positive impact. Instead, many people are left with a bitter taste in their mouth, and this bankruptcy reflects poorly on this nascent market, and EVs in general. Yet another bankruptcy is not what we needed.