6600+ ft. of climbing / LEAF in the San Bernardino Mountains

[abasile]

just in case im up there.. can i go charge at ur place?

Yes. Just PM me ahead of time so we can make sure to leave one of the parking spots by the charging dock free, and share details. Also, since I see that this is your first post to the forum, I would want to know just a little more about who you are. In any case, welcome to the forum!

Is that 3 circles on the dash ? Definitely lower power used equals better efficiency. On flat roads I try to use one or 2 circles only. Accelerating up the hill can be quite taxing - 6 or 7 circles (~ 50 KW). I've been able to maintain 40 mph up the hill using 3 or 4 circles.

While I don't closely look at the "circles"/"bubbles" on the dash, preferring the finer-grained Energy Info screen instead, I believe that 25 kW would be four circles, including the one at "zero". (Perhaps someone can correct me if I'm a little off.) Even accelerating up hills, I generally try to avoid going as high as 50 kW unless I'm trying to show the car off. :lol: It's always nice to know the LEAF has plenty of power for the instances when you need it, though.

 

[evnow]

I apologize if this is too far off-topic, but how do you count "circles on the dash", evnow? If I see three dots, including the one at "zero" which is on for both power use and regen, is that three circles, or two?

Including the center one, there are 10 circles - and a max of 80 KW for the motor. So, each bubble should be about 8 KW, assuming linearity.

 

[evnow]

Even accelerating up hills, I generally try to avoid going as high as 50 kW unless I'm trying to show the car off. :lol: It's always nice to know the LEAF has plenty of power for the instances when you need it, though.

I've a turn that start the uphill climb. I try not to be slow if there are people behind me - and accelerate quickly to about 40 mph. I don't want these guys to get the wrong idea about EVs.

BTW, one of the question I've got from a stranger about Leaf is how does it do on the hills. He was driving one of the weaker cars - and told him it would do better than his current ICE.

 

[abasile]

I've a turn that start the uphill climb. I try not to be slow if there are people behind me - and accelerate quickly to about 40 mph. I don't want these guys to get the wrong idea about EVs.

I also tend to "step on it" if someone comes up behind me while I'm driving below the speed limit. Alternatively, if I really do feel a need to conserve energy for maximum range, I make sure to use turnouts. (Legally, in California, you are required to use turnouts whenever you get five or more vehicles stacked up behind you. Here in the mountains, I recommend doing so even if there's only one vehicle that wants to pass.)

BTW, one of the question I've got from a stranger about Leaf is how does it do on the hills. He was driving one of the weaker cars - and told him it would do better than his current ICE.

Going up hills, the LEAF definitely feels zippier than our hybrid and AWD cars. What I tell people is that the LEAF has more than enough power on hills, but that it is probably not wise to continuously use all available power when driving up mountains. I also point out that it handles well on curvy roads and has good stability because of the battery placement under the center of the car.

 

[abasile]

I promised to share our experience climbing the mountain on State Highway 330, the main route to Big Bear. Given that this highway has been open during very limited hours (6-8am downbound only and 4-6pm upbound only) for the benefit of commuters, we finally had the opportunity to use it both down and up. (330 is expected to reopen on a full-time basis in time for July 4.)

Yesterday we had a commitment down in the city of Corona, CA (elev. 800', 50+ miles away) and decided to make the LEAF work for us. In addition to my wife and our two children, we took an adult friend with us, plus my road bicycle and other supplies for the day. It's safe to say that the total weight of the car, passengers, and cargo was about 4000 lbs., all of which needed to make it back up to our friend's house at 6200 feet elevation. Destination charging was not going to be an option, so I called ahead and got permission to charge at Corona Nissan. The service manager there (Todd) was very helpful and accommodating, and we enjoyed chatting about my LEAF experience thus far.

Our friend lives near the top of Live Oak in Running Springs, a fairly steep road that descends about 1000 feet before intersecting CA-330. After picking up our friend, we had 9 bars of charge which quickly went up to 10 bars while descending Live Oak. Lots of regen. As we continued down 330, regenerative braking became less and less helpful at slowing the car, especially after our charge level reached 11 bars. (See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=3880).

After completing our descent, we took the 10 and 91 freeways and mostly drove 55-60 mph in the far right lane. By the time we reached our destination in Corona, the car still had 7 bars of charge. I then dropped off our passengers and continued a bit over 3 miles to Corona Nissan, plugged the car in, and bicycled back to our destination. I later picked up the car with a full charge.

On the way home, we also stopped at Metro Nissan in Redlands for 1.5 hours of charging while we walked to a couple of stores and a restaurant in the vicinity. The folks at Metro Nissan were also accommodating, and I had a salesman sit in the car with me and check out some of the features. After leaving Metro Nissan, the LEAF had 10 bars of charge.

Due to the extra weight, I climbed the mountain more slowly (35-40 mph) in order to keep the motor draw down to 25-30 kW, except on Live Oak which is steeper and has a speed limit of 25 mph (thankfully). When we reached our friend's house at 6200', the car reported 3 bars of charge and only 8 miles of range! As soon as we dropped off our friend, the charge dropped to 2 bars. We arrived at home with 2 bars and no "low battery" warnings. The battery temperature indicator was at 6 bars the whole time.

Considering the extra weight and that we left Redlands with only about 80% SOC, I'd say that the car did pretty well.

 

[DaveL]

I am trying to figure out if it's possible for me to drive my Leaf to my cabin in the mountains and would very much like some input from abasile and others who have 1st hand experience with such drives.

Here is a summary of the planned drive, starting with a 100% charge:

1st leg: 1000' climb over 18 miles at a speed of 50-55 mph
2nd leg: 980' climb over 15 miles at a speed of 45-50 mph
3rd leg: 950' climb over 5 miles at a speed of 40-45 mph
4th leg: 1722' climb over 7 miles at a speed of 35 mph
5th leg: 2500' DROP over 19 miles at a speed of 50 mph

So the total climb is 4650' over 44 miles followed by a drop of 2500' over a distance of 19 miles for a total trip distance of 63 miles.

Using the information on this and other threads, I've calculated that I should be able to make this trip, though there won't be any bars left at the finish.

Is this trip really do-able, or am I asking for trouble?

Thanks to all in advance!
Dave

 

[derkraut]

IMHO, you will be just fine. If the range looks "iffy" beginning stage 5, reduce your speed to about 35-40mph; also, don't use your climate control.

 

[edatoakrun]

Give it a try. Very carefully...

You should make it, but be forewarned that the car's range meter will almost certainly tell you that you can't. At the end of leg four, you will probably have only 1 or 2 bars and a single digit "miles remaining" display. But on the final leg, the 2500 ft descent, will be largely powered by regen, and you may actually "add a bar" at some point, if it contains a steady downhill stretch. Use eco, and try to allow regen, rather than air resistance or brake friction, to control your speed, on this (and all other) descent(s).

I have made a similar total ascent and length ROUND trip several times. So I get (most of) the total (4,000+ ft.) ascent energy back in regen. It took me just short of 10 bars each time.

My best guess is you will arrive at your cabin with one bar, but I'd try it in a low stress situation first, and you may want to try to arrange a standby L1/ L2 charge point in advance, close to the end of stage 4, or some miles before your cabin, as practicable.

Tell us how it goes.

PS- The return trip should be a very easy one. I seem to be consuming/regenerating about one bar for each 2,000 ft of ascent/descent. So if it takes 11 bars to get to your cabin, it should take only about 9 to return.

 

[abasile]

I am trying to figure out if it's possible for me to drive my Leaf to my cabin in the mountains and would very much like some input from abasile and others who have 1st hand experience with such drives.

With careful, gentle driving, it appears to me that you should be able to make it without a problem. You might get a low battery warning, but I highly doubt you'll run out of charge. Still, if I were in your situation, I'd prefer to be conservative. Here are my thoughts:

1. Investigate the possibility of charging en route, at least on your first try. Could your first leg (heading out of the city) include a stop at a Nissan dealer or other charge point to "top off"? Even if you were to top off after only driving the first 10 miles, that could make a difference in your comfort level.

2. Try driving more slowly if possible, particularly in the initial legs.

3. Practice using the Energy Info screen to more precisely monitor your power usage and regeneration. Make sure you aren't "accidentally" using regenerative braking and thereby wasting kinetic energy when backing off on the accelerator. Keep in mind that, while regenerative braking is very useful, it is also lossy. On gentle downgrades, try to coast by keeping your motor power at exactly zero. Coasting requires some pressure on the accelerator, more in ECO mode.

4. That final 19 miles will still require some net energy, as a 2500 foot descent will not return enough potential energy to compensate for friction, aerodynamic, and drivetrain losses over that distance. The best scenario would be a very gradual, gentle descent where you mostly coast (not too fast though) rather than regen. A steep descent followed by flat terrain will require more net energy input.

5. I agree that it would be best to avoid the use of climate control on your first try. Don't leave your windows open at higher speeds. Don't sweat the use of headlights, though.

I hope this helps, and that you do go ahead with the drive. Please let us know how it goes!

 

[TangoKilo]

Go for it... What could possibly happen? Live life to the last electron... I do...

 

[davewill]

Go for it... What could possibly happen? Live life to the last electron... I do...

After all, Nissan roadside assistance doesn't get used nearly often enough... :lol:

 

[DaveL]

You guys are great! I really appreciate all the helpful suggestions.

Looks like the adventure will happen tomorrow. In the meantime, here's a bit more info:

1. Investigate the possibility of charging en route, at least on your first try. Could your first leg (heading out of the city) include a stop at a Nissan dealer or other charge point to "top off"? Even if you were to top off after only driving the first 10 miles, that could make a difference in your comfort level.

Unfortunately the starting point for leg 1 is about 20 miles past the nearest Nissan dealer. I'll actually be travelling 36 miles before leg 1 and will be charging back up to 100% before starting the part of the trip that I listed. There is a VERY small campground after leg 1 that I'm hoping to get a bit of a charge at, but I'm pretty sure that all they have is 110V, so I won't get much there without a long wait, which I'd rather avoid if possible.

3. Practice using the Energy Info screen to more precisely monitor your power usage and regeneration. Make sure you aren't "accidentally" using regenerative braking and thereby wasting kinetic energy when backing off on the accelerator. Keep in mind that, while regenerative braking is very useful, it is also lossy. On gentle downgrades, try to coast by keeping your motor power at exactly zero. Coasting requires some pressure on the accelerator, more in ECO mode.

This is new info to me and something that I will definately keep in mind. While the road is pretty consistant in it's climb rate for the first 3 legs, there are a few places where it drops back down a bit. I'll do my best to coast these areas.

4. That final 19 miles will still require some net energy, as a 2500 foot descent will not return enough potential energy to compensate for friction, aerodynamic, and drivetrain losses over that distance. The best scenario would be a very gradual, gentle descent where you mostly coast (not too fast though) rather than regen. A steep descent followed by flat terrain will require more net energy input.

On the final leg, the first 5 miles is fairly steep but after that its more moderate. The flat section is less than a mile, so I'm hoping to regen on the first 5 miles and pretty much coast the other 15.

5. I agree that it would be best to avoid the use of climate control on your first try. Don't leave your windows open at higher speeds. Don't sweat the use of headlights, though.

I plan on keeping climate control off the whole way, which given the current temps shouldn't be a problem. Thanks for the hint on the headlights.

The pass is so far from any tow truck operator and cell phone service dosn't exist for most of the trip so calling Nissan to bail me out isn't really an option. Instead, my wife will be driving our pickup truck with a generator that I can use to recharge the battery if necessary. I'm also thinking about following the truck so that I can draft behind her.

I'll be sure to post the results of this adventure!

Thanks again!
Dave

 

[TangoKilo]

I have found that the fan uses next to nothing in power and the a/c is nearly undetectable. So dont sweat it on your drive...

 

[abasile]

Looks like the adventure will happen tomorrow.

Awesome!

There is a VERY small campground after leg 1 that I'm hoping to get a bit of a charge at, but I'm pretty sure that all they have is 110V, so I won't get much there without a long wait, which I'd rather avoid if possible. ... The pass is so far from any tow truck operator and cell phone service dosn't exist for most of the trip so calling Nissan to bail me out isn't really an option. Instead, my wife will be driving our pickup truck with a generator that I can use to recharge the battery if necessary. I'm also thinking about following the truck so that I can draft behind her.

Personally, I'd consider leaving the truck and generator at home (unless you'll need the truck for other purposes), take some good reading material, and charge at the campground for 2-3 hours if they only have 110 V. Then you should be in pretty good shape, if you and your wife can stomach waiting that long. Of course, I'd re-confirm the availability of an outlet at the campground before starting out.

 

[DaveL]

Personally, I'd consider leaving the truck and generator at home (unless you'll need the truck for other purposes), take some good reading material, and charge at the campground for 2-3 hours if they only have 110 V. Then you should be in pretty good shape, if you and your wife can stomach waiting that long. Of course, I'd re-confirm the availability of an outlet at the campground before starting out.

I would completely agree except that we're hosting my sister's wedding at the cabin next weekend and we need the truck to haul all the chairs, tables, food and other necessaries. My wife and I spend pretty much the whole summer at the cabin and I can't stand to just leave the Leaf in the garage until September! Besides we need the truck all summer to haul the canoe, gravel, lumber and whatever is necessary to maintain life in the mountains.

So even if we can't use it to travel back home for a day or two, as we often do during the summer, I hope to use it to travel into the nearest town for groceries every week. That's 45 miles further east and drops another 2000', so we'll definately need a charge there to get back to the cabin.

Unfortunately none of the campgrounds in that area have agreed to let me charge the Leaf at their establishments and the local Nissan dealer won't have their L2 EVSE installed until September. Still I keep pounding on doors looking for a place to plug in.

Ah the joys and challenges of being an early adopter! :lol:

Dave

 

[abasile]

Unfortunately none of the campgrounds in that area have agreed to let me charge the Leaf at their establishments and the local Nissan dealer won't have their L2 EVSE installed until September. Still I keep pounding on doors looking for a place to plug in.

Yes, some of the reluctance to let LEAF owners charge seems irrational. I've encountered a bit of this as well. It's as if they think we're going to start an electrical fire, or run their electric bill way, way up.

Will the local Nissan dealer allow you to charge at 120 V until they have their EVSE installed?

Enjoy the drive!

 

[edatoakrun]

Remember, every LEAF has a range extender built in.

It's the accelerator pedal.

If you can drive 40-45 mph on the first two legs (drive in low traffic and pull over as neccessary) you should be able to make this trip pretty easily. After you know your battery level after the first trip, you will have a good idea of the maximum speed possible, and whether you can make this trip regularly without a recharge stop.

As I wrote previously, I believe you can, maybe even with a bar to spare.

Have fun.

 

[DaveL]

Will the local Nissan dealer allow you to charge at 120 V until they have their EVSE installed?

I walked all around their dealership with the service manager and unfortunately there were not any 120V outlets that could be used. It's a small dealership in a small town and the place handles both Nissan and Ford vehicles.

However, they are taking over the old "Kia" building just down the street and will be moving the Nissan sales and service to there in September. That's when their L2 EVSEs will be available, so I just have to be patient.

 

[abasile]

However, they are taking over the old "Kia" building just down the street and will be moving the Nissan sales and service to there in September. That's when their L2 EVSEs will be available, so I just have to be patient.

Patience is definitely a virtue at this time. What we really need is some DC fast chargers, preferably at least one in every small town. I'd really, really like to see one at the bottom of the mountain we live on. Patience, I tell myself.

Have you done the drive to your cabin yet?

 

[DaveL]

Have you done the drive to your cabin yet?

Yes! Just got to the cabin about an hour ago. It's taken me some time to post this as I had to learn how to include pictures.

Trip Report:

The total trip was from our home in Bellevue, WA (elevation 85') to our cabin which is located 19 miles east of Chinook Pass (elevation 5432'), a total distance of 100 miles.

The first leg of the journey (which was not included in my original post) was from Bellevue to Enumclaw, a distance of 36 miles. Charged back to 100% at the Exposition Campground in Enumclaw before starting leg 2 to Greenwater. (this was leg #1 in my original post) It took about 2 1/2 hours to top off the charge.

My wife and I stopped for an hour in Greenwater to have lunch while the Leaf sipped on some 120V charge at a small campground just down the street from the Naches Tavern (& restaurant). We left Greenwater with 10 bars showing.

By the time we got to the top of Chinook pass, I still had 3 bars showing. It was probably more like 2.25 bars in reality. (Sure wish we had a SOC % to work from!)

The last leg down the east side of the pass was mostly coasting, with just enough re-gen to keep the bars at 3 all the way to the cabin. Ran the whole way with no climate control, lights or radio though (as others pointed out here) none of that would have made any difference. Next time I'll turn on lights & the radio, but keep the heat off. By the way, the temperature in Enumclaw was 63 degrees, the pass was 41 degrees and the cabin 56. A nice warm sweatshirt was just fine!

Here's a picture of the car at the top of the pass.

As you can see, it was lightly raining and there is still a LOT of snow on the ground.

As the pass just opened up last week after being closed all winter (as is normal for this pass), I'm pretty sure that this is the first Leaf over Chinook pass, and maybe the first electric car on the pass ever! (not sure how I could ever verify that, but it sounds good! :lol: )

And finally here's a picture of the car at our cabin, where it will remain for the duration of the summer.

I'll not be taking it between home and the cabin for those occasional trips as it makes a 2 hour trip into a 6+ hour trip and my wife is just not that patient!

Again, my thanks to all who posted on this for the great advice that really eliminated my hesitation to make this trip.

No doubt, these Leafs belong in the forest in the mountains!

Dave