2013 Low Battery Capacity AHr Battery Degradation

[dhanson865]

Very interesting results, but I'm not surprised because when I did my record run, I noticed all the extra miles at the bottom which the ECOtality tech just told me that the 2013 pack has more 'cushion' than earlier packs.
Boomer, why did u go only 63mph? If u go 65 on the Speedo, that I believe is an actual 62mph as in Tony's test. I know mine is three mph fast at 65. Your slower speed may account for the 4.1 instead of 4.0.

I followed Tony's instructions to find velocity of 100 kph on the LEAF's nav display (radio off, Push Map 3 times, Radio twice, Map once. Find Nav sensor information, Vgps = 1,000). For my car, a reading of 1000 coincides with 63 mph. My LEAF is an SL, so it has the 17 inch wheels and Michelin tires.

Good work, this jives with the tirerack info I posted on another thread showing that the 17" stock tires are more accurate for the speedometer than the 16" stock tires.

 

[Boomer23]

Some more data on the test please, if you have it, ="Boomer23".

Ambient temps while driving?

Approx 68 F to 73 F

Battery temps when charging, both during the pre-test charge, and post test measured recharge.

I only have a record of the temps at the start and end of the test from the ELM app as noted in my original post

Test route elevation profile.

See profile image at bottom of this post. Start is about 105 ft, Minimum is about 20 ft, there is a local maximum toward the end of the test, just before I left the freeway, of 223 ft.

CarWings reports of kWh used, both from the initial battery charge and regen, and the miles driven during the test.

Carwings reports 88.5 miles driven, 21.7 kWh used, Economy 4.1 mi/kWh, Traction Motor Energy Consumed per mile 266.9 Watt Hr, Regen Energy Recapture per mile 27.2 Watt Hr, Energy Consumed by Accessories per mile 5.5 Watt Hr

Total time of the range test. Of course, it is impossible to maintain a constant speed over the entire battery capacity/range, and GPS calculated speeds may be inaccurate.

Total time was approximately 1.6 hours. Speeds were slower at the end of the test since I was on surface streets, there were stop lights, and last miles near home base were in neighborhood. I took the car off Eco mode and reset an energy economy meter in order to strive to keep the economy during this phase at 4.1 mi/kWh to match the indicated economy during the constant speed portion of the test. I realize that this portion of the test is a flaw in the ointment (so to speak :roll: ) of not running the car to Turtle on the freeway. I'm just funny that way. . As someone mentioned, the LEAF's economy meters may be suspect, especially with the Gid counts doing odd things at the low SOC portion of the trip. Not much I can do about it, and at least getting off the freeway is exactly what any driver would do if his route took him down below VLBW while going 63 mph, so at least my reported range simulates a real world condition.

Total time or recharge to both "80%" and "100%" if possible, so those of us without wall meters can compare our results to yours:

Total time to recharge was 4 hours 34 minutes, though the TED meter plot shows that the power ramped down at the 4 hour mark and the remaining 34 minutes constituted low kW fluctuations, presumably for balancing or adding the last few WH to the pack. I don't have the 80% charge time point. Please note that this was using the 6 kW charger on the 2013 LEAF.

 

[dm33]

I just took our 2013 SV in to the dealer to hopefully fix the PDM issue. I was able to get a 2012 Leaf as a loaner. I'm pretty psyched, interesting to see what another car is like.

More interesting, our 2013SV that we got 5/31/2013 (2 1/2 months ago, not long), now has 3200 miles on it. Its capacity started around 95% and keeps dropping. Its now reporting:

60.68Ahr, 91.59% capacity, 93.18% health.

Doing linear regression analysis, if degradation continues at this rate (hopefully slow down in the winter), we'd lose 4 bars before our 2 yr lease it up. Thats amazingly bad.

Meanwhile, the 2012SV loaner with 1000 miles on it is reporting,
63.82Ahr, 96.32% capacity, 96.67% health.

Those numbers are higher than we EVER saw on our 2013SV.

How do you set the 2012 to charge to 80%? I don't see an option. The manual said to set a charge timer to 80%. Even though I did that, it still charges to 100% if its not using the timer.

We've been trying to be ultra careful with our 2013 but its still degrading at an alarming rate. Its always in the garage or parked in the shade. We almost always charge to 80% and even then only charge right before we go somewhere.

I'm surprised to compare the 2012 and 2013 and see tons of little changes everywhere. This really was a relatively major update going to the 2013. I wouldn't think many of these changes would be worth the effort. I can't help but think they did something bad when they started making the batteries here for the 2013. Maybe an effort to lower cost that backfired.

 

[Boomer23]

I just took our 2013 SV in to the dealer to hopefully fix the PDM issue. I was able to get a 2012 Leaf as a loaner. I'm pretty psyched, interesting to see what another car is like.

More interesting, our 2013SV that we got 5/31/2013 (2 1/2 months ago, not long), now has 3200 miles on it. Its capacity started around 95% and keeps dropping. Its now reporting:

60.68Ahr, 91.59% capacity, 93.18% health.

Doing linear regression analysis, if degradation continues at this rate (hopefully slow down in the winter), we'd lose 4 bars before our 2 yr lease it up. Thats amazingly bad.

Meanwhile, the 2012SV loaner with 1000 miles on it is reporting,
63.82Ahr, 96.32% capacity, 96.67% health.

Those numbers are higher than we EVER saw on our 2013SV.

How do you set the 2012 to charge to 80%? I don't see an option. The manual said to set a charge timer to 80%. Even though I did that, it still charges to 100% if its not using the timer.

We've been trying to be ultra careful with our 2013 but its still degrading at an alarming rate. Its always in the garage or parked in the shade. We almost always charge to 80% and even then only charge right before we go somewhere.

I'm surprised to compare the 2012 and 2013 and see tons of little changes everywhere. This really was a relatively major update going to the 2013. I wouldn't think many of these changes would be worth the effort. I can't help but think they did something bad when they started making the batteries here for the 2013. Maybe an effort to lower cost that backfired.

OR maybe your 2013 hasn't degraded at all. Mine was built about the same time as yours, has similar AH and health readings, yet it still has a full capacity of 21 kWh plus a fraction, which we believe is the capacity of a new, healthy LEAF pack. I measured 24.6 kWh to recharge from Turtle to full, which, given 85% charging efficiency, equals 21 kWh to the pack.

I think that all we can conclude from the AH and health readings on this batch of 2013 cars is that something is different about the new battery packs. Without doing a careful range test (to Turtle) or measuring the kWh required to recharge from Turtle, I think that we have no information with which to conclude that degradation has occurred.

Gids at full or 80% charge are probably still helpful, even though the Gid readings at very low SOC may be misleading. I'm seeing Gids of 269 at full charge and 217 at 80% charge. What are your Gid readings?

EDIT: And my LEAF hasn't been treated nearly as carefully as yours has. I charge to 100% once or twice a week and the car has been Turtled twice.

 

[surfingslovak]

The capacity loss is supposed to level off, at least according to what Nissan representatives said last year. We haven't really seen this with Phoenix LEAFs, I believe, and based on anecdotal reports they don't appear to be on a glidepath to 75% remaining capacity in five years there. While it might make sense to assume linear degradation in this context, I would not base this prediction on the observation from one summer. The behavior will change in fall and winter. We saw GID counts recover seasonally last year.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...How do you set the 2012 to charge to 80%? I don't see an option. The manual said to set a charge timer to 80%. Even though I did that, it still charges to 100% if its not using the timer. ...

The only way to get 80% in a 2012 is to set one of the timers. Charging with the timers off or using the override button always goes to 100%. The fact that it is different on your 2013 is because it is one of the changes Nissan made to make limiting the charge to 80% easier.

 

[LEAFfan]

+1 on that Boomer! These packs are definitely different. I'm at 58 AH/89 HLTH, 4500 Miles/5.5 mos., Manuf. 1/13, leased Feb. 28. Maybe in the hotter climates, the pack is given more 'reserve' to help protect it from high heat and that makes it look like it is degrading when it really isn't. I'm going to predict that after one year, 10K miles, I'll still have all CBs and more capacity left than my 2011 at the same mileage and time.

 

[IraqiInvaderGnr]

7600+ miles and still no sign of battery degradation. By the way can someone explain what health is on this app?

 

[dm33]

I just took our 2013 SV in to the dealer to hopefully fix the PDM issue. I was able to get a 2012 Leaf as a loaner. I'm pretty psyched, interesting to see what another car is like.

More interesting, our 2013SV that we got 5/31/2013 (2 1/2 months ago, not long), now has 3200 miles on it. Its capacity started around 95% and keeps dropping. Its now reporting:

60.68Ahr, 91.59% capacity, 93.18% health.

Doing linear regression analysis, if degradation continues at this rate (hopefully slow down in the winter), we'd lose 4 bars before our 2 yr lease it up. Thats amazingly bad.

Meanwhile, the 2012SV loaner with 1000 miles on it is reporting,
63.82Ahr, 96.32% capacity, 96.67% health.

Those numbers are higher than we EVER saw on our 2013SV.

How do you set the 2012 to charge to 80%? I don't see an option. The manual said to set a charge timer to 80%. Even though I did that, it still charges to 100% if its not using the timer.

We've been trying to be ultra careful with our 2013 but its still degrading at an alarming rate. Its always in the garage or parked in the shade. We almost always charge to 80% and even then only charge right before we go somewhere.

I'm surprised to compare the 2012 and 2013 and see tons of little changes everywhere. This really was a relatively major update going to the 2013. I wouldn't think many of these changes would be worth the effort. I can't help but think they did something bad when they started making the batteries here for the 2013. Maybe an effort to lower cost that backfired.

OR maybe your 2013 hasn't degraded at all. Mine was built about the same time as yours, has similar AH and health readings, yet it still has a full capacity of 21 kWh plus a fraction, which we believe is the capacity of a new, healthy LEAF pack. I measured 24.6 kWh to recharge from Turtle to full, which, given 85% charging efficiency, equals 21 kWh to the pack.

I think that all we can conclude from the AH and health readings on this batch of 2013 cars is that something is different about the new battery packs. Without doing a careful range test (to Turtle) or measuring the kWh required to recharge from Turtle, I think that we have no information with which to conclude that degradation has occurred.

Gids at full or 80% charge are probably still helpful, even though the Gid readings at very low SOC may be misleading. I'm seeing Gids of 269 at full charge and 217 at 80% charge. What are your Gid readings?

My 2013 was ready today so I already turned in the 2012SV but I gathered more numbers and I'm even more confused. I sure hope someone can make sense of these numbers.

2012SV manufactured 1/2012. 1600 miles. At 100% charge reported:
63.82Ahr, 96.32% cap, 96.67% health
263 GIDs (93.6%), SOC 91.7%, 21.0 kwh, temp 79

Last time I charged my 2013SV to 100% was on 8/4/2013 (~3200 miles)(its reporting much lower now) and it reported the following:
61.34Ahr, 92.58% cap, 94.47% health
266 GIDs (94.7%), SOC 97.1%, 21.3 kwh, temp 82.9

I'm throughly confused.
The 2012 reports high capacity and health, yet the GIDs, SOC and kwh reported by the app at 100% are higher in the 2013 than the 2012. How can that be?

What does SOC reported mean? How do you charge a car to 100% and have it report 91.7% SOC?

 

[surfingslovak]

I'm throughly confused.
The 2012 reports high capacity and health, yet the GIDs, SOC and kwh reported by the app at 100% are higher in the 2013 than the 2012. How can that be?

What does SOC reported mean? How do you charge a car to 100% and have it report 91.7% SOC?

Good data, thanks for sharing. Sorry, I did mot have the time to review it all yet. That said, full charge was never mean to be 100% SOC. That's a misnomer. Since lithium ion batteries generally lose capacity faster when sitting fully charged, most EV manufacturers limit how far the consumer can fill the pack. It's an engineering trade off. Slightly less capacity than rated in exchange for hopefully disproportionately longer life. Although 91.7% sounds low, there were similar reports in the past. True SOC should be between 94% and 97% when full. The 2013 LEAF had a surprising number of vehicles with a relatively high SOC reading.

 

[Boomer23]

I'm throughly confused.
The 2012 reports high capacity and health, yet the GIDs, SOC and kwh reported by the app at 100% are higher in the 2013 than the 2012. How can that be?

What does SOC reported mean? How do you charge a car to 100% and have it report 91.7% SOC?

As I said, my conclusion at this point in time is that we don't know yet. This batch of battery packs in the recent (May 2013 build and later????) LEAFs appears to be different from the packs in the 2011 and 2012 cars and even from the early 2013 cars. One difference is the behavior as we drive the cars down to Turtle. My car and stjohnh's car display very odd Gid readings down below 2 kWh remaining charge and definitely below 10 Gids. Another observation is that these cars show lower AH and Health readings than the 2013 cars that were manufactured earlier in the year. But the 2013 cars seem to still have full capacity of around 21 kWh and those that have been tested (though none have been tested rigorously) seem to have about the full driving range.

So IMHO we need to take a deep breath and not get worried about low and dropping AH readings from the ELM app and differences between the AH readings of the different batches of cars. And we certainly shouldn't be projecting these readings into the future and concluding that Nissan has screwed the pooch on the new packs. From my measurements, including kWh required to recharge from Turtle, a reading that is independent of the LEAF instruments, my car has all of the capacity of one of the earlier 2013 LEAFs that have much higher AH readings.

I'm not an engineer and I don't have an explanation of what might be influencing these AH readings in the app, given that the different batches of packs appear to be able to store and deliver the same usable capacity. Very few of the 2013 cars have been taken down to Turtle in a careful way with data reported from the event. We need more owners to do that and we need some of the genius engineers in our brain trust to consider the problem.

Right now, my advice is to focus less on AH readings and focus more on enjoying your cars. And I doubt that you have to baby your packs any more than you would have before you got the app. And if you're leasing, that advice is all the more valid. That's just me, so consider the advice equal to what you paid for it.

 

[stjohnh]

I'm throughly confused.
The 2012 reports high capacity and health, yet the GIDs, SOC and kwh reported by the app at 100% are higher in the 2013 than the 2012. How can that be?

What does SOC reported mean? How do you charge a car to 100% and have it report 91.7% SOC?

As I said, my conclusion at this point in time is that we don't know yet. This batch of battery packs in the recent (May 2013 build and later????) LEAFs appears to be different from the packs in the 2011 and 2012 cars and even from the early 2013 cars. One difference is the behavior as we drive the cars down to Turtle. My car and stjohnh's car display very odd Gid readings down below 2 kWh remaining charge and definitely below 10 Gids. Another observation is that these cars show lower AH and Health readings than the 2013 cars that were manufactured earlier in the year. But the 2013 cars seem to still have full capacity of around 21 kWh and those that have been tested (though none have been tested rigorously) seem to have about the full driving range.

So IMHO we need to take a deep breath and not get worried about low and dropping AH readings from the ELM app and differences between the AH readings of the different batches of cars. And we certainly shouldn't be projecting these readings into the future and concluding that Nissan has screwed the pooch on the new packs. From my measurements, including kWh required to recharge from Turtle, a reading that is independent of the LEAF instruments, my car has all of the capacity of one of the earlier 2013 LEAFs that have much higher AH readings.

I'm not an engineer and I don't have an explanation of what might be influencing these AH readings in the app, given that the different batches of packs appear to be able to store and deliver the same usable capacity. Very few of the 2013 cars have been taken down to Turtle in a careful way with data reported from the event. We need more owners to do that and we need some of the genius engineers in our brain trust to consider the problem.

Right now, my advice is to focus less on AH readings and focus more on enjoying your cars. And I doubt that you have to baby your packs any more than you would have before you got the app. And if you're leasing, that advice is all the more valid. That's just me, so consider the advice equal to what you paid for it.

Thank you Boomer.
I 100% agree with everything in your post.

One other thing I have noticed that is different on my 2013 "low capacity" Leafs compared to 2011 and 2012 Leafs (don't know about the other 2013 Leafs) is that the GOM is much more useful. Now that I have run my cars down to turtle a couple of times, and gathered some data, I have started using the GOM again. Unless I am going to be using a different driving style or environment from my usual, the GOM is actually fairly accurate. And of particular note, does NOT give an unrealistically optimistic predicted range. For my 2013s, starting with 80% or 100% charge, I find my actual range to turtle is about 8-10 MORE than the GOM reports. Similarly at LBW I can just add 10 miles to what the GOM says and that is within 1 mile of true range to turtle. Very handy to not have to look at my Leaf Batt App or WattsLeft to calculate approximate DTE.

 

[Boomer23]

Just a quick note about the ELM app readings down near Turtle.

While the Gid readings are screwy for my car at 10 Gids and below, the remaining charge is still reported accurately in the kWh remaining display. So the app does have a reliable indicator of remaining charge for our 2013 cars. Turtle occurred at 0.4 kWh remaining, just as expected .

 

[dm33]

I hope its just a reporting issue cause my 2013SV continues to drop all metrics very quickly.

We went on vacation and had the car parked for a week. Was relatively cool. Pack was 72 degrees when we got back. Left it at 35% SOC according to the console. Obviously didn't drive it anywhere.

Before we left was reporting:
8/8/13: 61.46 Ahr, 92.76% cap, 94.71% health

The day we got back it reported very close to the same values, but over the last two days its dropped 2% or more. Now reporting:

8/20/13: 60.17 Ahr, 90.82% cap, 92.17% health

At this rate I may hit the 89% this week. Do I have the honor of the fastest degrading 2013? (At least according to these reported #s).

 

[johnrhansen]

When I bought my 2013 leaf s in June, the dealership sent me home with a full charge and my range was only 97 miles. To this day I have never seen anything higher than that at 100 percent charge, and while at 80 which is what I normally charge to I have never seen more than 79. I bet my battery is one of the low ones but I haven't got a meter yet.

 

[dm33]

When I bought my 2013 leaf s in June, the dealership sent me home with a full charge and my range was only 97 miles. To this day I have never seen anything higher than that at 100 percent charge, and while at 80 which is what I normally charge to I have never seen more than 79. I bet my battery is one of the low ones but I haven't got a meter yet.

The range indication (GOM) is useless. Its totally dependent on how efficiently you drive.
If you drive downhill or very slowly on flat land when stop and charge to 100%, you're very likely to see over 100 mile range. It doesn't mean anything. Not useful. Remember EPA rating is 73 miles. 97 is a high rating, you were likely driving slow when you stopped to charge. If you were flying down the expressway at 75, uphill with the AC running and stopped to charge you'd see drastically lower 'range' estimate.

 

[Boomer23]

When I bought my 2013 leaf s in June, the dealership sent me home with a full charge and my range was only 97 miles. To this day I have never seen anything higher than that at 100 percent charge, and while at 80 which is what I normally charge to I have never seen more than 79. I bet my battery is one of the low ones but I haven't got a meter yet.

You are talking about the DTE (Distance to Empty), or what we call the Guess-o-meter ("GOM"). This reading is heavily influenced by the way the car was driven the last time it was driven before the charge event. We call it the GOM for a reason, it means almost nothing at full charge.

Yes, I recommend that you get a meter.

 

[Boomer23]

I hope its just a reporting issue cause my 2013SV continues to drop all metrics very quickly.

We went on vacation and had the car parked for a week. Was relatively cool. Pack was 72 degrees when we got back. Left it at 35% SOC according to the console. Obviously didn't drive it anywhere.

Before we left was reporting:
8/8/13: 61.46 Ahr, 92.76% cap, 94.71% health

The day we got back it reported very close to the same values, but over the last two days its dropped 2% or more. Now reporting:

8/20/13: 60.17 Ahr, 90.82% cap, 92.17% health

At this rate I may hit the 89% this week. Do I have the honor of the fastest degrading 2013? (At least according to these reported #s).

I noticed that my AH and Health readings jumped up a couple points after I recently charged the car to 100% two days in a row. You might try that. The common wisdom around here is that the balancing happens best after a 100% charge without setting an end timer. You might try that if you routinely charge to 80% only. Your pack may not be getting enough of a chance to balance fully. Leave the car with the charging plug in for a couple hours after the charge ends, and of course be sure to drive the car down a few bars at least in between and don't leave it fully charged for very many hours.

And. with respect, I think that at this point, the word "degraded" may be misleading to new or prospective buyers. We really don't know that we have any proof of degradation. For all we know, the car may be set to gradually reduce some parameter during the summer to protect the packs, and that's showing up as a drop in AH. This drop in reported AH may be programmed, not a measure of degradation at all.

 

[scottf200]

Possible good news for 2013 owners.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=320481#p320481" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The exciting news last night was they are 80% done with the testing on a new battery chemistry that dramatically addresses the heat issue - enough that the LEAF could even be sold in climates hotter than PHX (like Abh Dhabi). Testing includeS 24/7 soak at 45C and preliminary results show degradation on par with the more moderate climates. This new battery is trending to an April 2014 rollout but folks facing a replacement now shouldn't wait since they want everyone to have one so will give such folks a coupon to replace to the new technology at a date of their choosing.

Does that mean when the "hot" battery is ready all new Leafs will be sold with the new battery? If so and word got out, I would think that would put a damper on current Leaf sales. Perhaps that is why Nissan isn't cranking out Leafs even though there appears to be a lot of demand for them.

I believe the batteries would be changed to the 'Hot Battery' when the warranty conditions were met, but I wasn't clear if all future Leafs would be sold with the new 'Hot Battery'. The new battery supports the same QC characteristics, with no better or worse QC times.

He also mentioned that the 2013 Battery does have better temperature characteristics, and we should notice an improvement, but isn't as good as the 'Hot Battery'

 

[bradbissell]

Update on my battery degradation. Looks like my capacity has finally dipped below 100%. Sad to see that happen.

Since my last post I have returned to using the default Ahr value in the LBA. My prior %CAP values have been updated to reflect this.

Built 3/13 Delivered 3/31/13

Date-------Ahr------%CAP----%SOC----Health----- GIDS----V Max---mv Delta---Max Batt Temp F---- Total Miles
6/24/13---66.850--101.905--97.100----------------------4.135----10.000-----80.000
7/22/13---67.050--102.210--96.900----103.090----283----4.125----9.000------79.500
8/1/13----66.150--100.838--97.100----101.400----284----4.128----9.000------78.800------------4960
8/12/13---65.810--100.320--96.800----100.760----283----4.128----12.000-----68.900------------5443
8/28/13---65.220---99.421--97.100-----99.760----283----4.134----9.000------75.200------------6166