2011/12 Upgrade to dual stock chargers or 2013 charger?

[XeonPony]

Hmmm... here's another consideration I haven't heard yet... if you use dual chargers, you're probably going to trip some breakers. Here's why: say you plug into an EVSE that says its max current that can be supplied is 20A. One or both of the chargers will see that, and say "yay, I can pull my max 16A" and both will try to draw 16A, which ends up drawing 32A on a 20A EVSE.
Therefore, you'd probably need some sort of mechanism to:
1) switch to a single charger when 16A or less is offered by the EVSE
2) halve the pilot's duty cycle seen by the chargers when the EVSE indicates > 16A is available

Not on ours

All of our Brusa's are CAN controlled and look at the EVSE/pilot to see what the Leaf is getting and then ramps up to the max amount avail to the pilot.

If you plug into a 32a EVSE... the Leaf pulls 16 and the Brusa ramps up to 16a as well.

Plug into a junky Blink (at 24a) the Leaf pulls 16a and then the Brusa ramps up to 8a.

Charging to 100%??? Once the Leaf starts to taper, it tells the Brusa to shut down...

Easy Peasy.. it's all auto! Greg's the best!

And I've done a liquid cooled Brusa on a 13 (have duals on mine up front)... but you need to know what you are doing.

P.S. Do NOT try and screw around with the factory charger.. it's NOT worth it... get a Brusa or something else aftermarket that's ISOLATED and run in automatic mode...

I'd be very very interested in this as well! every public L2 I've ever seen out here is 70 to 80Amp! So geting the 2013 to even 9Kw would be Fing awsom!

 

[JasonA]

And I've done a liquid cooled Brusa on a 13 (have duals on mine up front)... but you need to know what you are doing.

Would love to see some photos of how you've done this - It'd be really nice to get up to 32A charging as in many cases where you're parked for an hour it's much more cost effective than QC and you don't have to worry about staying with your car or coming back after 30 minutes in case someone else needs QC - never mind that L2 stations are far more available than QC stations in general.

You're pulling more then 32a and you have to use dual J-plugs.

If you have CHAdeMO then you have to mount the jplug under the hood. On the 13's is a different beast and I modeled a new plate in Solidworks (know SW inside and out now for my 3d printing stuff).. and had my waterjet guy cut it out.

Again, it's not worth it to start posting and getting into it just like the Brusa thread.. people ask and ask and ask.. If you know how to do it... then do it.

If you don't, stay away from HV :twisted:

 

[JeremyW]

You are better buying a new LEAF than trying to install an OEM charger. I have Brusa that is programmed for LEAF second charger. I removed from my car and since I'm not using it I will likely post it in the for sale section with the adapter plate for those determined to do this. There will be no tech support or instructions of any kind however.

I'll be selling mine too within a few months too, as my lease is up in September. I would like to sell it to someone local so I can help do the initial installation, but yeah, no support after.

 

[miscrms]

Not on ours

All of our Brusa's are CAN controlled and look at the EVSE/pilot to see what the Leaf is getting and then ramps up to the max amount avail to the pilot.

If you plug into a 32a EVSE... the Leaf pulls 16 and the Brusa ramps up to 16a as well.

Plug into a junky Blink (at 24a) the Leaf pulls 16a and then the Brusa ramps up to 8a.

Charging to 100%??? Once the Leaf starts to taper, it tells the Brusa to shut down...

Easy Peasy.. it's all auto! Greg's the best!

And I've done a liquid cooled Brusa on a 13 (have duals on mine up front)... but you need to know what you are doing.

P.S. Do NOT try and screw around with the factory charger.. it's NOT worth it... get a Brusa or something else aftermarket that's ISOLATED and run in automatic mode...

Still trying to understand how this is fundamentally different than the stock 2011/12 charger. The differences to me seem pretty minor, but again perhaps I'm still missing something.

Brusa NLG513 charger:
- 3.3kW max output
- External CAN controlled "dumb" charger
- Requires custom mounting location, wiring and coolant lines
- Requires knowledge of Leaf charger CAN messages, and custom CAN controller
- Some? support by manufacturer, documented CAN controls
- General purpose, not specific to Leaf control/fault systems
- Isolated charger, nice for series use, what benefit for parallel use?
- Cost ~$2000 - $2800 retail with vendor support, ~$1000 through unsupported channels

Nichicon stock 2011/12 charger:
- 3.3kW max output
- External CAN controlled "dumb" charger
- Requires custom mounting location, wiring and coolant lines
- Requires knowledge of Leaf charger CAN messages, and custom CAN controller
- No manufacturer support beyond service manual documentation, user community message decoding
- Specific to Leaf application, possibility of retaining oem fault controls.
- Non isolated charger, how is this an issue for parallel applications?
- Cost ~$1300-1700 retail, ~$350-850 used ebay/recycler

Rob

 

[JeremyW]

The packaging of the OEM charger is pretty bulky. I don't think it will fit under the hood. I quite like the air cooled Brusa under there, I only see derating when in 100+ degree weather when the hood is in direct sunlight.

Both the Brusa and the OEM chargers are isolated. However there are some external relays required for the OEM charger to function (at least on the DC side, don't remember if the AC side is internal to the unit itself).

But hey, don't let me discourage you. Go try it yourself!

 

[JasonA]

You don't have to do anything with a Brusa.. you can mount it up front.. program it for AUTO.. hook it up.. and it's done.. super simple.. and they are under or about $1k right now on Ebay. No CAN needed.

The Nissan unit?? As Jeremy pointed out.. takes alot to integrate. You are going through a CAN nightmare.. or something that has NEVER been done..

Ever

 

[miscrms]

That kind of brings me back to the question, hasn't most of the charger related CAN stuff already been figured out in order to let the LeafDD control the Brusa? The CAN message spreadsheet doesn't seem to include all of this, is it documented anywhere? I'll freely admit I may just not fully appreciate how things are documented in the spreadsheet yet. I do fiber optic com IC design as my day job, so I'm usually more worried about making sure the bits all get there than worrying about packet contents

If I find a good deal on a stock unit I may jump on it. To be honest I probably don't really need faster charging, but I am intrigued by the technical challenge and for some reason just like the idea of using recycled stock parts. I guess that's why I'm building a whole car out of recycled Leaf parts. I did figure out that the 2013 charger I picked up at a scrap yard for $75 is the 6kW unit, but its pretty banged up and seems like a bigger challenge in general as I believe the charger related CAN messages may have changed, but again haven't found much documentation on that. I assume the fact that its essentially a combination of the DCJB and Charger compared to the 2011/12 would also complicate things.

In the small amount of testing I was able to do with the Leaf I was finding it pretty easy to get 5-6 mi/kWh. It will be interesting to see how that improves once the system is in a vehicle with roughly half the weight and half the aerodynamic drag. With a 15 mile RT commute and what should easily be a >100 mile range, I suppose I could just wait the 8 hrs to charge once a week But why settle for 3kW when you can have 6?

Thanks guys, I do appreciate your experience and comments. Just trying to understand, and look at things in new ways to push the collective understanding of whats possible.

Rob

 

[miscrms]

FYI if anyone's interested I've got a build thread for my transplant here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/new-ev-1973-saab-sonett-conversion-148730.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And I'm documenting my findings related to what controllers can be omitted from the transplant here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/re-using-complete-leaf-drive-system-151458.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's what my Leaf looks like at the moment

 

[miscrms]

Also in case it helps somebody, in preparing to remove the battery pack it occurred to me that it would probably be possible to run new wiring between the rear mounted charger and the engine bay without dropping the battery. I haven't tried it, but it certainly looks feasible to run an electrician's fish tape though the routing channel. You'd have to remove the rear seat, and jacking up the car would certainly help.

Here's the view of where the charger wiring descends through the floor:

Here's the view of the same from the underside with the battery still in place:

Here's the view looking back up the routing channel from the front, again with the battery still in place:

And here's what the channel looks like with the battery removed:

It might get a little sticky in places, but you also might be able to open the battery disconnect access panel from inside the car to help feed the wire/fish tape through.

Rob

 

[miscrms]

I'll post that info in a new thread in case its of use to someone for some other purpose.

Rob

 

[TimLee]

FYI if anyone's interested I've got a build thread for my transplant here: ...

Very interesting Rob.

 

[hillzofvalp]

Agreed.

I would like to strip my 2012 and try to make it a little race car for the street. How much weight do you think I could shed if I took the onboard charger and all the AC, seats, upholstery, and other fluff out?

aLso, have you considered swapping the leaf inverter out for something you could have more control over?

 

[TimLee]

... have you considered swapping the leaf inverter out for something you could have more control over?

Interesting idea.
But probably very technically challenging.

But this comes from the perspective of someone who's relatively young four year old 2011 LEAF is virgin, unmodified at this point in time.
I bought the great seat travel extenders, they still need to be installed.
And frequently when I encounter a driving moron I think seriously about adding full blown tractor trailer compressed air air horn horns.

The four year old LEAF looks like a 40 year plus human, shedding huge swaths of stringy fabric loss from its most useless ever manufactured floor carpets.
Pretty sad for such an advanced car.
And with its battery degradation, will soon become a neighborhood electric vehicle just a year or two after the near useless Nissan battery capacity warranty expires.

I hope Rob has fully considerd the short lived battery life for a Nissan LEAF battery pack in Phoenix :shock: :?:

What Rob is doing is way out there beyond what 99.5% of people would ever attempt.
He might be able to pull off an inverter changeout :? :?

 

[miscrms]

Once I got to drive my Leaf, I have to say I'm quite impressed with Nissan's design. Ok, its not a race car, and I'm sure its got all kind of little gripes if I were to drive one every day. But as really the first mass market full electric, its a pretty impressive feat all in itself.

In a total swap, everything is on the table of course. But if for no other reason than I don't think its been done, my plan is to stay pretty close to the stock Leaf system. If I wanted ultimate flexibility I could have just built the car up from scratch using retail parts from different vendors. What the Leaf brings IMHO is a pretty well thought out fully integrated drive system, at a price that is far more accessible to most than retail. To come up with parts to equal the Leaf's inverter, motor, charger, and bms/battery would have easily cost $20-25k retail. And that doesn't get into all the little details like air condition, security, lighting control, etc that can be very time consuming and add more cost. With a salvage Leaf, I pretty much got everything I need for $7k, and it already all works together.

My thought then is to try to enhance/customize the Leaf by changing the mechanical platform around it, rather than by significantly modifying the drive system. Not unlike the hotrodders of yore who would take a big V8 from a crashed performance car of the day, and drop it into a cheap old rust bucket to create a custom rocket on a minimal budget. I'd love to see a new era of electric hotrods come about, and the availability of fairly cheap, decent quality used parts from vehicles like the Leaf just might be the catalyst to kick that off. I'd love to be part of helping make that possibility more real with my project.

The results should be interesting. Weight will drop from 3600-3800 lbs to 1800-2000. Aerodynamically drag should also be reduced by almost half. That should result in some pretty impressive performance acceleration wise, and some pretty impressive efficiency cruising wise. Maybe not quite a Tesla killer, but for 1/10th the cost maybe close enough

On the battery, I'm currently at 11/12 bars. Haven't yet done a 100% charge to see exactly how many GIDs. My plan is to mount the battery inside the cabin behind the front seats, and I may actually run one of the AC ducts right back into the battery compartment. I'm hoping that will significantly extend the lifetime of the battery, but only time will tell. Ultimately with up to 2x the typical Leaf range, and my fairly short commute of ~15mi RT, it will probably be a long time until range becomes a real issue for me either way. It would certainly be nice to have the flexibility to use it for more than just commuting, but anytime I have to drive the kids around I'll have to be back in the Prius anyway.

Rob

 

[keydiver]

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who runs a hotrod shop, and I got to thinking how sweet it would be if someone (like Tesla) would offer a complete kit to electrify a car. It would sort of be like the crate motor packages that many now offer, where the motor comes with all the sensors, wiring harnesses, and computers, which have already been tested as a running assembly, making the transplant completely plug-n-play. Think how many street rods there could be with an all-electric power plant if such a kit was available! Hopefully the day will come when enough people have reverse engineered the Leaf to make such swaps totally viable.

 

[hillzofvalp]

Well, that wont' happen. did you hear about the guy who restored a salvage title tesla to working condition but tesla wouldn't activate it?

Tim, can I have your seat extenders? I'm in Nashville. I was considering getting those after driving 320 miles in a day...

Are you talking about reducing the leaf weight to 1800-2000 lbs? Is that even possible? Or are you talking about swapping to another chassis that weighs only 800 pounds?

 

[JimSouCal]

The four year old LEAF looks like a 40 year plus human, shedding huge swaths of stringy fabric loss from its most useless ever manufactured floor carpets.

To add some contrast, my '11 LEAF had leather installed in the first few weeks of ownership, and I got rubber floor mats instead of the carpet mats. The interior looks pretty good...as I also installed UV blocking film on all windows (clear UV block on the windshield).

I am about to lose my 2nd bar, as the LEAF SPY tells me I am a sliver under 80% capacity... My LEAF will be useful in my realm as long as it has 50% of it's original capacity...

The worst part is the rear bumper, that has one tiny scratch I made loading a piece of furniture, and about 12 other scratches of various kinds inflicted by those whose lives run with less modulated control of their vehicles.

Yes, I have charger envy of newer faster chargers, but do find that life has some new times carved out for reading a book or stretching a meal when that need presents itself.

All this said, I'd like a steeper power curve on launch (tuned LEAF), and the ability to have a firmer ride on the get go (still tempted to mod the suspension, but with the "pedestrian" level of sophistication of the rear suspension, may just await a real world EV sports car I can afford...

 

[DaveEV]

My plan is to mount the battery inside the cabin behind the front seats, and I may actually run one of the AC ducts right back into the battery compartment. I'm hoping that will significantly extend the lifetime of the battery, but only time will tell.

One problem with putting the batteries in the cabin is that the cabin heats up a lot when the car is sitting in the sun. With the batteries sitting under the car in a separate compartment on the LEAF, they essentially sit in the shade all day and stay pretty close to ambient + any heat gain from sitting in a sea of concrete or asphalt.

 

[JasonA]

With the batteries sitting under the car in a separate compartment on the LEAF, they essentially sit in the shade all day and stay pretty close to ambient + any heat gain from sitting in a sea of concrete or asphalt.

What's the lesser of two evils?? Inside a car with the windows cracked down or searing blacktop during the summer? :twisted:

I would opt and always liked Kia's invention of an air-cooled/pumped battery. If the battery is moved into the cabin, and a make-shift shell is formed with AC air pumped around it, that would be a great idea!

I always though while driving during the summer.. "GEEZE, it's 110* out! why is my battery at 41*c and never cooling down at night?" :roll:

I think the hottest I saw it at was 43*c

 

[miscrms]

keydiver: My thoughts exactly. I don't know if Tesla will be the ones to do it, as others mentioned they have not been very supportive of the DIY community so far. But if EVs continue to gain traction it seems like someone will see a market opportunity there.

hillzofvalp: The Leaf Drive system is going into a 1973 Saab Sonett III. Its a very small two seater (smaller than a Gen1 insight), with a fiberglass body over steel frame. Stock weight was ~1800 lbs with a cast iron industrial Ford V4. Mine was already converted to a 96V DC / lead acid system in the early 90s. Keeping to stock weight may be a stretch, but ditching the Leaf's steel battery box is a good start. Without that the battery weighs a little over 400 lbs I believe. The motor and inverter should be around 200 lbs. We'll see where it ends up.

drees/JasonA: Yeah its definitely a tradeoff. Parking in the shade makes a huge difference, and I do at least have covered parking at work. It may not end up being the best choice, but thought someone should try it and find out

JimSouCal: Being able to tune the torque curve would be awesome. JeremyW who posted above has done some work on this, but there doesn't seem to have been any progress recently. I just got a dual channel CAN adapter up and running, and this is one of the things I'm interested in playing with eventually.

Rob