20,000 miles

[hobbyguy]

I charge to 80% at home at night with L2. I drive 35 miles to work and then charge there on L1 for the time I am at work,(usually 9 hours). When I leave at night to drive home, I am usually at 100% or just near that.

I also had maintenance and battery check at 15,000 miles. No issues. Few tire rotations at 7,500 miles.

I have seen a little bit of battery loss. Every morning I charge to 80%, I live at the top of a hill. I regen all the way down and enter the freeway. I drive 65 until I hit the Magic Mountain exit. I have been watching my first bar disappear right at the exit when I got the car and over the past 11 months I try to not lose that bar until I get to that exit, I can't do it now no matter how lite I drive it.
I lose the bar now about a 1/3 of a mile before the exit. Not real scientific but kind of makes the drive fun in the morning. It has been cold here the past days, in the high 30's ,and noticed the bar disappear earlier than usual. Will have to see if I can make it to the exit come this spring when it warms up a little.

 

[TonyWilliams]

A lot depends on how much total capacity the battery has, is it 28kwh, 27kwh or 24kwh?.. if the maximum usable capacity is 21kwh then that works out to a conservative usage of only 75% of the batteries capacity... 200k miles total life should be doable.

It seems like 6 or 7 months ago when folks were certain that they had 24kWh available to use, but alas, we know different. Nissan says 24kWh for the total battery capacity, and so does any other pragmatic review of the battery. Let's stop repeating non-sense just because somebody said it previously.

The battery is capable of slightly more than 21kWh of usable power, given enough heat on the batteries. Even at 21, that's 87.5%. At 21.5, that's almost 90%.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I have seen a little bit of battery loss......Not real scientific but kind of makes the drive fun in the morning. It has been cold here the past days, in the high 30's ,and noticed the bar disappear earlier than usual. Will have to see if I can make it to the exit come this spring when it warms up a little.

You recognize that the loss is most likely temperature related, and not degradation of the lithium cells? Also, if you're using the heater (you didn't state whether it was on or off), your consumption will be higher on that reduced capacity battery.

I suspect next summer, your battery will spring back to life.

 

[DaveEV]

I charge to 80% at home at night with L2. I drive 35 miles to work and then charge there on L1 for the time I am at work,(usually 9 hours). When I leave at night to drive home, I am usually at 100% or just near that.

Why charge all the way back up to 100% for the drive home if you don't need to? Especially considering that in the summer the car will probably be sitting in the hot sun.

 

[LEAFfan]

I'm surprised to see how many folks insist on the 28-30kWh number. I know there's been some chatter out there about the LEAF having a larger battery pack than what Nissan has said, but I can tell you that in conversation with Nissan engineers they swear that the pack is indeed only 24 kWh and there is no funny business going on.

I too used to believe it was only 24kW h, but the ECOtality techs that have been tweaking the QCs here told me that Nissan told them that the battery pack is actually 28.8kW h, not 24. We have a 'useable' 24 which means about 20-21 actual. And the reason is to keep them at the 80/20 charging level. So even when the SOC % says 100%, it isn't. And when it goes to turtle, they said there is really 20% left in the pack, but hidden from use. They said there is no way to hurt the battery pack just by QCing (up to 6X a day),taking it to turtle, or charging to '100%' every day with L2. Even when the battery pack hits 123 degrees or more, the LEAF will show 'turtle' and it will immediately shut down. How else do you think that Nissan could offer an 8yr./100K mile battery pack warranty?

 

[TonyWilliams]

They said there is no way to hurt the battery pack just by QCing (up to 6X a day),taking it to turtle, or charging to '100%' every day with L2.

The Nissan North American Quality Assurance guy told us that there's not any limit to QC beyond battery temp. If it's below the red on the temp gauge, then you can QC.

That's directly from Nissan.

Now, practically, I'd probably moderate that in very high heat.

 

[surfingslovak]

We have a 'useable' 24 which means about 20-21 actual... How else do you think that Nissan could offer an 8yr./100K mile battery pack warranty?

I'm sorry, and with all due respect, this is utter nonsense. I don't think there were such wild rumors about the battery capacity of any other EV.

How do you propose is this shadow capacity achieved? The research report for LiMn cells I looked at suggests that maximum capacity is reached at 4.17V cell voltage. The total capacity at that voltage is about 10% larger than the capacity at 4.10V, which corresponds to full charge on the Leaf.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...How else do you think that Nissan could offer an 8yr./100K mile battery pack warranty?

What warranty? Last I heard there was no capacity warranty on the battery pack. The warranty is for defects, such as a failed cell, during the warranty period, I believe.

The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery), like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under the Nissan New Vehicle Limited Warranty.

 

[Herm]

The research report for LiMn cells I looked at suggests that maximum capacity is reached at 4.17V cell voltage. The total capacity at that voltage is about 10% larger than the capacity at 4.10V, which corresponds to full charge on the Leaf.

Thanks Slovak, not doubting you but do you have a link to that report?.. 10% capacity seems like a lot for only 0.17v.. not that I would ever charge a large lithium pack that high. Even 4.10V makes me nervous.

 

[gbarry42]

I have been watching my first bar disappear right at the exit when I got the car and over the past 11 months I try to not lose that bar until I get to that exit, I can't do it now no matter how lite I drive it.

11 months ago, you had different firmware (unless you never got the update) so your bar behavior would have changed, presumably around the time the weather was warming up. So, I'm going with the temperature angle, also.

 

[evnow]

How do you propose is this shadow capacity achieved? The research report for LiMn cells I looked at suggests that maximum capacity is reached at 4.17V cell voltage. The total capacity at that voltage is about 10% larger than the capacity at 4.10V, which corresponds to full charge on the Leaf.

Is the Leaf battery purely Li-Mn ?

ps : Too much OT here. Can we confine this thread to 20K milers ?

 

[surfingslovak]

Thanks Slovak, not doubting you but do you have a link to that report?.. 10% capacity seems like a lot for only 0.17v.. not that I would ever charge a large lithium pack that high. Even 4.10V makes me nervous.

Herm, I might have referenced this report before. It's from Radamass, Popov, et al. They used prismatic manganese spinel cells and noted that there was no difference in capacity between charging at 4.17V and 4.3V. Happy to take this offline, but I would appreciate if we did not insist on inflated total battery capacity claims. They are completely unsubstantiated. The Leaf should fare well with a 85% ratio of usable to rated battery capacity, and I hope that we will see further proof of that this spring.

Abstract: http://www.electrochem.org/dl/ma/200/pdfs/0182.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Full report: http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/Ramadass/SFO-Ramadass-Spinel-1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Click to enlarge

 

[GoingGreener]

Thanks TaylorSFGuy and hobbyguy.
We're at the other end of your driving spectrums, so it's interesting to hear how people use the LEAF closer to it's potential daily. We've been L2 charging at home with the Blink through the EV Project - to 80% most nights, then 100% on the others. No L3 quick chargers to test out our port yet . Would love to take more long drives.
We'll probably have the tires rotated at 6 mths even though it won't have 7,500 miles and check the batteries at 1 yr - before 15,000 miles? - Will check w/Nissan CS.
Since our driving demands are mostly non-challenging... we'll most likely never see "turtle" on our dash... it's interesting when we also see posts like TonyWilliam's turtle screens! 13 of them? :lol:
Here's to another happy n safe 20,000 miles to all

 

[mwalsh]

Hit 20,000 miles on Monday, exactly 11 months since purchase. Not one issue to speak of, 20,000 miles of carefree driving. Anyone else close?

Wow! :shock: No, I'm at 11,500. 11 months, 4 days on. Would be closer to 15k (and have a much better bank balance) if not for these damn furlough days from work.

 

[Herm]

Herm, I might have referenced this report before. It's from Radamass, Popov, et al. They used prismatic manganese spinel cells and noted that there was no difference in capacity between charging at 4.17V and 4.3V.

Thanks, a very interesting study, I believe it applies to the Leaf. So just by limiting the charge voltage to 4.1V they reduce the capacity from 24kwh down to 21kwh.. very interesting and it matches the can-bus reported voltages down to turtle.

 

[hobbyguy]

I charge 80% at home (L2)(solar) and then all day at work (L1) which gets me just up to 100%. I charge to 100% at work because I let the business pay for it and then when I get home very little charge needed to get back up to 80%. I love my Leaf!

 

[brent]

The Leaf book keeps referring to High Voltage in the batteries.

What is the collective battery output, and how many cells are actually in there ?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

The Leaf book keeps referring to High Voltage in the batteries.

What is the collective battery output, and how many cells are actually in there ?

48 cells. all we really need is the spec on a single battery module. dont suppose anyone has that available?

 

[DarkStar]

The Leaf book keeps referring to High Voltage in the batteries.

What is the collective battery output, and how many cells are actually in there ?

48 cells. all we really need is the spec on a single battery module. dont suppose anyone has that available?

There are 192 cells, 4 each in 48 modules. Here are the stats per AESC:

General specifications

Cell type: Laminate type
Cathode material: LiMn2O4 with LiNiO2
Anode material: Graphite
Rated capacity (0.3C): 33.1 Ah
Average voltage: 3.8 V

Dimensions

Length: 290 mm
Width: 216 mm
Thickness: 7.1mm
Weight: 799 g

Given the provided specifications, the battery pack average voltage is 364.8 Volts and 66.2 Ah or 24.14976 kWh. Fully charged though, the battery pack voltage is 403.2 Volts which would equal 26.69184 kWh.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

The Leaf book keeps referring to High Voltage in the batteries.

What is the collective battery output, and how many cells are actually in there ?

48 cells. all we really need is the spec on a single battery module. dont suppose anyone has that available?

There are 192 cells, 4 each in 48 modules. Here are the stats per AESC:

General specifications

Cell type: Laminate type
Cathode material: LiMn2O4 with LiNiO2
Anode material: Graphite
Rated capacity (0.3C): 33.1 Ah
Average voltage: 3.8 V

Dimensions

Length: 290 mm
Width: 216 mm
Thickness: 7.1mm
Weight: 799 g

Given the provided specifications, the battery pack average voltage is 364.8 Volts and 66.2 Ah or 24.14976 kWh. Fully charged though, the battery pack voltage is 403.2 Volts which would equal 26.69184 kWh.

thanks for that. is there a "float charge" rating. some batteries tend to read a higher voltage just after charging is complete. this voltage bleeds off. so what would be the difference in range from driving immediately after charge is complete verses doing it 8 hours later?