Some Leaf Owners Experience Early Capacity Loss

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Great discussion! I've been monitoring the article Nikki wrote for Green Car Reports on Wednesday. I found the following comment by Jim McLaughlin to be of interest:

Jim McLaughlin said:
I heard a Leaf Technician speaking just yesterday, he said he has done cell level replacements. While high temperature at high state of charge for a long time is the worst thing you can do, it is likely that only one or maybe a few cells have degraded significantly.

Think's service manager goes way back to the EV1, and he tells me that some (not all) Volt dealers can do cell level replacement without sending the pack by to the factory.

What is Nissan's policy on pack diagnosis? It does not sound like these owners would care! They never got down to low SOC. So fuhgeddaboudit. If they someday need the range, maybe pay to have a couple cells replaced and then follow directions.
 
RegGuheert said:
Regardless, my point stands as written. I don't think having to run a compressor to be able to cool a battery makes much sense. Better to apply a high-temperature battery technology. They exist now with higher capacity.

Tesla, Ford and GM seem to think its worthwhile to run a compressor.
 
All the cells are in close contact with each other and with the battery case.. a single temperature gauge on the outside of the case would probably give a close reading of the pack temperature.

http://www.amazon.com/Digital-temperature-meter-remote-sensor/dp/B002B0KVFQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1337373459&sr=8-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This one reads up to 160F, and the cable is 8 feet long

41%2Bvwk29cnL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
 
My method of charging to 50% 1-2 hours after I arrive home, then charging to my desired charge level just before I leave in the morning is working very well. While I have to reset the timers each day, it only takes a minute to do so. I may set maximum charge to 80% to control the charge in case I miscalculate. I have found that a very close approximation of time needed to charge on L2 (for those who have Gid Meters and know their starting SOC) is 3% every 10 minutes (=18% per hour). This formula works very well in the range of 30-80% SOC. For instance, when I charged for 2 hours and 10 minutes:

Estimated change in SOC - 39%
Actual change in SOC - 38%

While not as elegant or easy as being able to set the desired SOC directly, it isn't much trouble to do. My plan is to keep the SOC at 50% as much of the time as possible to minimize battery capacity loss. For my routine, it works very well. During the week, I charge from 50% to 70% in the early morning, arriving at 70% half an hour before I leave for work. When I get to work, my SOC is 50%. The Leaf sits out in the sun for the next 10 hours at 50% charge. The drive home leaves me at about 30%. An hour or two later, one of the timers charges the Leaf back to 50%, where it sits for about 10 hours until early in the morning. The cycle starts again.

For anyone whose schedule/driving needs are fairly predictable, this is probably the best care one can give to the battery. Will it be any better than just charging to 80%? Hard to say, but given early warning signals from some of our friends in Arizona, the small amount of extra effort is worth it for me. Just wish I had a place to park in the shade during the summer. :evil:
 
surfingslovak said:
Great discussion! I've been monitoring the article Nikki wrote for Green Car Reports on Wednesday.

Link I got from the comment section:

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/energystorage/pdfs/53470.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Comparison of Battery Life Across Real-World Automotive Drive-Cycles
 
TonyWilliams said:
GerryAZ said:
SanDust said:
How many people still think a thermal management system for the battery pack is unnecessary?
I am in Phoenix and I see no reason for the added complexity of active thermal management. My battery temperature has ranged between 4 and 8 bars during the past 11 months and 10,000+ miles.

Gerry

So, to you, 26F to 126F is "good" for the battery ?

I won't say that I think the temperature range is good for the battery, but it is acceptable to me rather than having a complex, power-consuming thermal management system. Liquid cooling without a refrigeration system would be of little benefit with the high ambient temperatures common during the daytime in Phoenix. If a refrigeration system were used, the battery capacity would need to be much larger to give the same range while running the compressor and moving the heavier vehicle down the road. I prefer the simple air-cooled solution Nissan has chosen.

Gerry
 
GerryAZ said:
If a refrigeration system were used, the battery capacity would need to be much larger to give the same range while running the compressor and moving the heavier vehicle down the road. I prefer the simple air-cooled solution Nissan has chosen.
Gerry, the ActiveE that I'm driving has a TMS. I rarely see it working here in NorCal, which reinforces my decision to go with a Leaf instead of a Volt. If I lived in a hotter climate, I might have a different perspective. Although what you say is true, I wonder if having battery conditioning whenever the vehicle was plugged in wouldn't be beneficial.
 
I've been starting to shoot for 50% ish as well and it's been pretty easy, mainly I have simply stopped plugging in every time I get the chance and cycling more around the middle. I figure anywhere in the middle four bars is pretty good for day time idle. I wish we had a better sense of where true 50% is, given the hidden bar, it seems that it's a bit lower in the pack than bar 6, more like 5 bars and then we don't really know how much is out of reach at the bottom, maybe 10%? I seems that true 50% could be closer to 4 bars. does anyone have a good sense of where true 50% is? I'm not going to get super anal about it but it would be nice to be aiming in the right general direction if I'm going to bother babying the battery at all.


Stoaty said:
My method of charging to 50% 1-2 hours after I arrive home, then charging to my desired charge level just before I leave in the morning is working very well. While I have to reset the timers each day, it only takes a minute to do so. I may set maximum charge to 80% to control the charge in case I miscalculate. I have found that a very close approximation of time needed to charge on L2 (for those who have Gid Meters and know their starting SOC) is 3% every 10 minutes (=18% per hour). This formula works very well in the range of 30-80% SOC. For instance, when I charged for 2 hours and 10 minutes:

Estimated change in SOC - 39%
Actual change in SOC - 38%

While not as elegant or easy as being able to set the desired SOC directly, it isn't much trouble to do. My plan is to keep the SOC at 50% as much of the time as possible to minimize battery capacity loss. For my routine, it works very well. During the week, I charge from 50% to 70% in the early morning, arriving at 70% half an hour before I leave for work. When I get to work, my SOC is 50%. The Leaf sits out in the sun for the next 10 hours at 50% charge. The drive home leaves me at about 30%. An hour or two later, one of the timers charges the Leaf back to 50%, where it sits for about 10 hours until early in the morning. The cycle starts again.

For anyone whose schedule/driving needs are fairly predictable, this is probably the best care one can give to the battery. Will it be any better than just charging to 80%? Hard to say, but given early warning signals from some of our friends in Arizona, the small amount of extra effort is worth it for me. Just wish I had a place to park in the shade during the summer. :evil:
 
GaslessInSeattle said:
I've been starting to shoot for 50% ish as well and it's been pretty easy, mainly I have simply stopped plugging in every time I get the chance and cycling more around the middle. I figure anywhere in the middle four bars is pretty good for day time idle. I wish we had a better sense of where true 50% is, given the hidden bar, it seems that it's a bit lower in the pack than bar 6, more like 5 bars and then we don't really know how much is out of reach at the bottom, maybe 10%? I seems that true 50% could be closer to 4 bars. does anyone have a good sense of where true 50% is?
True 50% is right around 5 bars (from my Gid Meter plus my memory). According to Ingineer, the top 5% is not accessible, and when you hit turtle you are at 2%.
 
Thanks! wow, 2%, that is way less than I thought... good to know. I'll be shooting for 5 bars for long idle times now when reasonably convenient. I wish the charging timers would allow for two to be set at once with options from 50-100%. Ideally there would always be a delay for cool down at night before the 50% charge begins. I also am now really wanting to be able to stop charge from carwings. I gave a fairly clueless EV project rep an earful about all this today. He recommended that anyone with capacity loss call them and let them know what is going on and not to rely just on dealers, if there is some unique combination of factors causing this, they'd like to know. The EV project number is 877-664-2738, it's basically a straight shot to corporate.

Stoaty said:
GaslessInSeattle said:
I've been starting to shoot for 50% ish as well and it's been pretty easy, mainly I have simply stopped plugging in every time I get the chance and cycling more around the middle. I figure anywhere in the middle four bars is pretty good for day time idle. I wish we had a better sense of where true 50% is, given the hidden bar, it seems that it's a bit lower in the pack than bar 6, more like 5 bars and then we don't really know how much is out of reach at the bottom, maybe 10%? I seems that true 50% could be closer to 4 bars. does anyone have a good sense of where true 50% is?
True 50% is right around 5 bars (from my Gid Meter plus my memory). According to Ingineer, the top 5% is not accessible, and when you hit turtle you are at 2%.
 
GerryAZ said:
SanDust said:
How many people still think a thermal management system for the battery pack is unnecessary?
I am in Phoenix and I see no reason for the added complexity of active thermal management. My battery temperature has ranged between 4 and 8 bars during the past 11 months and 10,000+ miles.

Gerry


I won't say that I think the temperature range is good for the battery, but it is acceptable to me rather than having a complex, power-consuming thermal management system. Liquid cooling without a refrigeration system would be of little benefit with the high ambient temperatures common during the daytime in Phoenix. If a refrigeration system were used, the battery capacity would need to be much larger to give the same range while running the compressor and moving the heavier vehicle down the road. I prefer the simple air-cooled solution Nissan has chosen.

Gerry

what about the Ford Focus EV? it has 3 separate cooling loops that can be used in any combination to maintain temps of battery, inverter and charge controller.

it has a 23 Kwh pack but is reputed to go farther on a full charge than the Leaf. so maybe there is something to the management options for people in very warm climates.

as for me? i go with the cheaper Leaf since i dont have those high temps to worry about. the highest ive seen is 6 bars and i am guessing in the heat of Summer after a QC i might see up to 7 or 8
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
i go with the cheaper Leaf since i dont have those high temps to worry about. the highest ive seen is 6 bars and i am guessing in the heat of Summer after a QC i might see up to 7 or 8

I've QCd in over 100 degree temps and the highest my temp gauge has gone is only 7 bars from the usual 6. I've never seen eight yet.
 
Well I hate to say it, but i think I just saw some battery capacity loss :( Top bar did not light up..
I did a full charge yesterday and after rubbing the tears from eyes, I came to terms that i may not ever be able to drive the car again, 130+ miles...

I just took the car in last week for the battery check @15500 miles and everything check out to perfect..
I took the car in 2 days later because of a headlight warning and I told them to do the software upgrade,I thought maybe that had something to do with it..

I need to go back Wed. when they have a specialist come in to see why they could not fix the warning light...I guess Ill question about the battery also...

15700 miles 6.0 M/KWH, 50/50- 100%/80% charges, Charge every other day..No fast charges..No Turtles..

PhX Az where it was 112 today in the shade :shock:
 
mark13 said:
Well I hate to say it, but i think I just saw some battery capacity loss :( Top bar did not light up..
I did a full charge yesterday and after rubbing the tears from eyes, I came to terms that i may not ever be able to drive the car again, 130+ miles...

I just took the car in last week for the battery check @15500 miles and everything check out to perfect..
I took the car in 2 days later because of a headlight warning and I told them to do the software upgrade,I thought maybe that had something to do with it..

I need to go back Wed. when they have a specialist come in to see why they could not fix the warning light...I guess Ill question about the battery also...

15700 miles 6.0 M/KWH, 50/50- 100%/80% charges, Charge every other day..No fast charges..No Turtles..

PhX Az where it was 112 today in the shade :shock:
mark13 I am so sorry about your bar loss, Looks like everything is pointing to PHX (AZ) temp as cause of this. You really took care of your car, however still join group of people that lost capacity bar. Having report from TaylorSFGuy that currently stand at 38KM and charged twice daily to 100% and still have new battery GID (272 - 280, Kent, WA) I will be paying attention where car is parked during OK summer months.
 
so several in AZ reporting loss. anyone in a moderate climate reporting any loss?

or anyone who is using bad charging habits reporting any loss?

although it would appear highly unlikely that the heat of AZ is not causing this, we still need more data.

after all, battery loss is supposed to happen but when? 6 months? 12 months? 18 months? i past 16 months with near zero loss and so have others who have driven much farther than me
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
after all, battery loss is supposed to happen but when? 6 months? 12 months? 18 months?
Battery capacity loss happens continuously. Many factor contribute to the rate of capacity loss, but it appears that in Phoenix temperature is dominant. In Washinton state, OTOH, neither 600 cycles nor one year nor the temperature there have seemed to make much difference. This is excellent news for most LEAF owners!
 
mwalsh said:
After seeing what seems to be the beginnings of a north/south divide, certainly in the western states, I'm starting to think that Nissan should have gone with active thermal management.
I guess I prefer to purchase an EV without active battery thermal management because I don't really want the additional cost and complexity for very limited benefit. But it certainly begs the question of what Nissan should do with places like Phoenix. Who knows? perhaps places like Texas will be O.K. They don't seem to be at the 15%/year rate, anyway...
 
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