Yesterday I loss my 3rd bar @ 26 k miles..

[DaveinOlyWA]

I've never really understood how a Leaf battery pack is useful for utility companies as a method of maintaining supply. Wouldn't the entire 20k list of current USA Leaf's be insufficient for this task?

yes it probably would but it would be fine for emergency backup for a hospital, critical data center, emergency response center and so on.

when in Yokohama, the battery plant had portable unit on wheels that could house 5-6 Nissan packs (it had 2 in there) I tried to get a pix (we were not allowed to take pix here) but only got the side of someone's head...

as far as how the replacement process will work; I am also in the camp that the replacement pack will be one that has 100% of the original capacity. whether its new or refurbished, I have to say it really doesn't matter. degradation in Phoenix is probably fairly consistent across all the cells and you cant put a good cell in with a bunch of bad ones. it just throws everything out of balance.

 

[cwerdna]

I've never really understood how a Leaf battery pack is useful for utility companies as a method of maintaining supply. Wouldn't the entire 20k list of current USA Leaf's be insufficient for this task?

It could be useful at the utility or at the consumer level for leveling the load throughout the day: reducing demand during peak periods and charging up at night, when electricity is cheaper and demand is low.

Try looking at some graphs of summer months via http://web.archive.org/web/20120801051325/http://www.caiso.com/Pages/TodaysOutlook.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for CA.

Sometimes PG&E over here issues alerts (e.g. http://www.pge.com/about/newsroom/newsreleases/20080708/pge_asks_customers_to_conserve_energy_this_week_as_temperatures_heat_up_across_california.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. At my former work in CA, in some very hot high demand days, we'd get emails from facilities (due to messages from PG&E) about reducing demand and most of us would.

 

[tbleakne]

Business logic makes me think these warranty claims will be serviced on the battery module level. Why would they manufacture an entire 600 pound battery, and ship it and install it when they just need a few individual modules from the production line to ship to site and spend a few hours to install?

If all of the modules in a degraded pack have capacity loss, then simply swapping out a few modules might not be sufficient to re-attain the warranty capacity threshold.

Now that I am running the ELM327 - Android monitor system, I can testify that all of my 96 cell pairs are degrading uniformly. Often the difference between max and min cell pair is less than 20 millivolts out of 3.7 volts. This strongly suggests that Nissan will usually have to replace the whole pack.

 

[abasile]

Now that I am running the ELM327 - Android monitor system, I can testify that all of my 96 cell pairs are degrading uniformly. Often the difference between max and min cell pair is less than 20 millivolts out of 3.7 volts. This strongly suggests that Nissan will usually have to replace the whole pack.

That's good news and bad news. The good news is that the pack is apparently designed well from the standpoint of uniformly distributing heat and not leaving some cells much more vulnerable than others. (Of course we'd rather that heat be eliminated from the pack.) The bad news is that there's no such thing as a cheap fix once capacity loss has occurred.

If Nissan is going to have to swap in a new pack, then filing a capacity warranty claim just before 60K miles might be best for the consumer if one can wait that long.

 

[UBUYGAS]

I would rather make a claim for replacement as soon as it happens because it might happen again at 59,700 miles and then I'll get new packs twice.

It almost seems like we are all going to lose 4 bars at 30K miles, if that's true we may be back at 40K, 50K, and 60K.

If Nissan is going to have to swap in a new pack, then filing a capacity warranty claim just before 60K miles might be best for the consumer if one can wait that long.

 

[abasile]

I would rather make a claim for replacement as soon as it happens because it might happen again at 59,700 miles and then I'll get new packs twice.

It almost seems like we are all going to lose 4 bars at 30K miles, if that's true we may be back at 40K, 50K, and 60K.

In New Jersey? I doubt it! Your pack should hold up relatively well and likely won't lose nearly enough capacity for the warranty to kick in.

Personally, I highly doubt that I'll be utilizing the capacity warranty. My LEAF has almost 35K miles and all twelve capacity bars thanks to our cool mountain air.

 

[UBUYGAS]

I'm a little worried about the cold winters. Does the Cold kill the batteries or just the extreme heat?

In New Jersey? I doubt it! Your pack should hold up relatively well and likely won't lose nearly enough capacity for the warranty to kick in.

Personally, I highly doubt that I'll be utilizing the capacity warranty. My LEAF has almost 35K miles and all twelve capacity bars thanks to our cool mountain air.

 

[DaveEV]

I'm a little worried about the cold winters. Does the Cold kill the batteries or just the extreme heat?

Nope, the cold preserves the batteries (as long as you don't charge the pack too quickly, and the BMS appears to be very good at preventing that), it's the heat that degrades them.

 

[UBUYGAS]

So in the cold weather I should either park the car in the garage (mine is heated) or use the trickle charger?

I'm a little worried about the cold winters. Does the Cold kill the batteries or just the extreme heat?

Nope, the cold preserves the batteries (as long as you don't charge the pack too quickly, and the BMS appears to be very good at preventing that), it's the heat that degrades them.

 

[DaveEV]

So in the cold weather I should either park the car in the garage (mine is heated) or use the trickle charger?

I assume by "use the trickle charger" you mean park outside and trickle charge instead of parking in the garage and using L2.

So it depends - do you want to maximize battery life or maximize cold weather range? Unless you heat your battery to over 75F, I'd just do whatever is most convenient in the winter and don't worry about it.

But if you want to maximize battery life you'd park wherever it's cooler (probably outside). But if you want to maximize winter range (cold batteries hold less energy), park the car in the garage.

 

[abasile]

So in the cold weather I should either park the car in the garage (mine is heated) or use the trickle charger?

I assume by "use the trickle charger" you mean park outside and trickle charge instead of parking in the garage and using L2.

If you bought the car and didn't lease, you want the battery to last as many years as possible (i.e., well over ten years and maybe 15 or 20), and your garage is heated, then I'd advise parking outside at night even during the cooler months. The exceptions would be occasions when you need maximum range or whenever you're expecting snow and don't want to have to clear off the car. TonyWilliams and others have estimated a 1% temporary drop in battery capacity for every four degrees below 70 Fahrenheit, so most of your range loss in the cold will probably come from using the heater.

Also, particularly during the warmer months, try charging to only 50% or so if that's enough to fully meet your daily range needs. Low SOC (but not super low) has a protective effect in heat.

 

[TomT]

One thing few talk about is that loss of capacity is like circling the drain... As you loss capacity, you often must charge to a higher SOC to maintain the range you need, which in turn leads to accelerated battery degradation... I often have to charge to 100% (which, as we know, is actually more like 95%) these days when 80% would have easily done it when the car was newer...

Also, particularly during the warmer months, try charging to only 50% or so if that's enough to fully meet your daily range needs. Low SOC (but not super low) has a protective effect in heat.

 

[smkettner]

So who is headed to AZ in summer with 57000 on the clock and about to lose the warranty bar

 

[surfingslovak]

Business logic makes me think these warranty claims will be serviced on the battery module level. Why would they manufacture an entire 600 pound battery, and ship it and install it when they just need a few individual modules from the production line to ship to site and spend a few hours to install?

If all of the modules in a degraded pack have capacity loss, then simply swapping out a few modules might not be sufficient to re-attain the warranty capacity threshold.

Now that I am running the ELM327 - Android monitor system, I can testify that all of my 96 cell pairs are degrading uniformly. Often the difference between max and min cell pair is less than 20 millivolts out of 3.7 volts. This strongly suggests that Nissan will usually have to replace the whole pack.

Thank you for confirming that. Some of the affected owners in Phoenix last summer reported relatively small cell voltage differences as well.

 

[erdalc]

I got rid off my nissan leaf when I noticed 5-8 miles drop in range. I have not lost any bar though. Receiving 5 stars on my first year batter review did not convince me to keep my nissan leaf. Before Its sale, it was making about 65 miles right before low battery warning. I sold it when it was 15,000 miles and I purchase 2012 Chevy Volt. After I drove it for about a week, I finally came to a conclusion that I have made a mistake when I purchased the leaf and I had no info on chevy volt. With my volt, I drive about 50-55 miles without a gas eventhough it is advertised as 35 miles. I have driven it about 5300 miles and never needed a drop of gas. My commute is about 46 miles and I originally thought that I will drive 35 miles in EV mode and 11 miles in gas mode. I prefer chevy volt thousand times over nissan leaf as I have driven nissan leaf 15 months for 15000 miles. By the way, I never worry about miles drop hen I use AC in volt, because EV mileage drop is almost negligible.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I got rid off my nissan leaf when I noticed 5-8 miles drop in range. I have not lost any bar though. Receiving 5 stars on my first year batter review did not convince me to keep my nissan leaf. Before Its sale, it was making about 65 miles right before low battery warning. I sold it when it was 15,000 miles and I purchase 2012 Chevy Volt. After I drove it for about a week, I finally came to a conclusion that I have made a mistake when I purchased the leaf and I had no info on chevy volt. With my volt, I drive about 50-55 miles without a gas eventhough it is advertised as 35 miles. I have driven it about 5300 miles and never needed a drop of gas. My commute is about 46 miles and I originally thought that I will drive 35 miles in EV mode and 11 miles in gas mode. I prefer chevy volt thousand times over nissan leaf as I have driven nissan leaf 15 months for 15000 miles. By the way, I never worry about miles drop hen I use AC in volt, because EV mileage drop is almost negligible.

I personally hate it when people talk ROI but I am difficulties understanding the validity of your decision. a 46 mile commute and a demonstrated 75 miles of range (LBW at 65miles) I have to think you have other reasons and transportation needs not mentioned.

either way, the Volt is a great option as well as the LEAF. its great you can drive that far without using gas

 

[erdalc]

My only reason is the battery of leaf and Nissan's approach on warranty issues. I just did not want to be told by Nissan as the origin of this thread: "go lose another bar and we will fix it"

My response is "fix it now, if you can"

 

[Desertstraw]

Somebody please explain to me why the over ten year old Toyota RAV4 Electrics owned by SCE are still getting over 100 miles in range and why two year old Leafs are losing range far below the nominal 70. To me the obvious conclusion is that at this stage of battery development, EVs should be based on the NiMH battery not Lithium ion. I am two years into my lease in the Phoenix area and probably because of my low mileage, about 8300 miles, I still have 12 bars and a range of about 70 miles, measured yesterday. And, for the record, I always charge to the nominal 100%.

When my lease is up I intend to return the car and hope that with the end of the patent period, I can buy a NiMH powered car.

Unlike many posters here, I am not angry at Nissan for their effort to pioneer a new technology and hope that what they have learned will compensate for the loss that they will take on the leased cars.

 

[gbarry42]

[LEAF] Before Its sale, it was making about 65 miles
[Volt] With my volt, I drive about 50-55 miles without a gas

...I finally came to a conclusion that I have made a mistake when I purchased the leaf
...I have driven it about 5300 miles and never needed a drop of gas.

In the end it comes down to personal preference, and it appears you just like the Volt better. Maybe the seats are bigger or the visibility better or something. From the above things seem about equal. You can drive 55 miles in a volt or 65 miles in a LEAF so there's no clear advantage there. You don't use the engine so I'm not sure what having one gets you. If I bought a car that had an engine I never used, I would be thinking I had made the mistake.

 

[brettcgb]

Actually, utilities and others (probably solar-panel contractors) are waiting with open arms for batteries too "spent" for efficient vehicle use. Utilities need large-scale battery farms to balance intermittent generation sources (solar, wind), while a solar contractor could take a large solar array and a few old Leaf battery packs and, even at 50% capacity, use enough of them in your backyard to completely "island" yourself from the utility.

I'm not even a green person, but the prospect of self-sufficiency by having my own solar/wind feeding into a battery bank with utility power serving only as an auxiliary source is extremely appealing to me for some odd and unexplainable reason. Think about it- why exactly should we be so reliant upon centralized power generation when we have other options available to us.

I can't wait for someone to get their hands on a few old cells just to create a proof of concept. I think decentralization will be the trend going forward.

Having my own home battery pack has some appeal to me too. That would allow me to do my own load shifting as I wish (and am able).

> why exactly should we be so reliant upon centralized power generation when we have other options available to us?

The problem with this is that it requires someone with the interest, time, and background to manage such resources. With centralized resources, it's someone else's job to manage the resource, including reliability, efficiency, maintenance, and disposal. I would be willing to take on these functions, but I doubt any of my neighbors would. Thus, centralized power generation and distribution is the norm for "us".