Volt vs. Leaf - What finally pushed you to the Leaf?

[Volt3939]

Just don't be negative on the Volt or GM on that forum. Its hard to notice disappearing members. Such members magically become inactive, otherwise known as banned. Only way to tell is that you can no longer PM them. One such thread was started by 'dogma' who magically disappeared after stating too many non-positive Volt sales stats.

And yet Dogma's last post was 4 days ago, several days after yours. I for one often miss weeks without posting.

Negative posts @GM-Volt.com often get evaluated through a filter that includes experiencing a lot of politically motivated negative press, can you say Faux News?
Some do assume the worst, but most will accept valid criticism.

Getting your facts wrong in the subject line is not a good way to be taken seriously, and yes, it was edited to be correct later.

 

[UBUYGAS]

I went Leaf because I wanted BEV. Plus GM Killed the EV1, I hate GM!

 

[LEAFfan]

Simply put: No gasoline/no hybrid

 

[Arvind]

We have a 2011 Prius as our 1st car, so for our 2nd car we wanted an EV. We dismissed the Volt because of its price and ICE maintenance cost. We originally wanted a Smart ED, but due to family reasons chose Leaf which was costlier but a lot more car for the money. Very happy with it so far. Love the around view camera with which I can now parallel park perfectly.

 

[walterbays]

Four steps. 1) Started with Prius. 2) Wished Prius would run on battery for short trips where the ICE never had time to fully warm up and gas mileage was bad. 3) Considered Volt, and figured its 40 mile EV range would just about be sufficient to avoid using gas on a regular basis. 4) Realized Leaf range would be ample; if there would be a reasonable number of recharging stations in the area there's no need to drag a recharging station (the ICE) around with me; no need to maintain an ICE plus an EV drive; Leaf is cheaper; Leaf is bigger; previous good experience with Nissan reliability.

However recharging infrastructure is lagging far behind early plans, especially for the most important DC quick chargers. So I wouldn't consider being without one gas burner in the household. If I were replacing our conventional ICE today, Volt would be at the top of my list.

 

[LikeBudda]

but one of the biggest drawbacks for the Volt is that I've seen the gm-volt forum ban multiple people not for saying anything offensive or inflammatory, simply for stating obvious facts about the Volt that they didn't like. Things like it only seats 4, only sold 1306 in April, inventory is running high at 9300, enough to last until 2014. wopontour (the moderator) specifically stated they want rose colored glasses.

If you have the primary discussion website for a product which bans people for being less than glowing about the Volt, how can you ever hear realistic viewpoints about the vehicle. Its scary. Censorship. Only allow positive posts.
.

Hi all 1st post here. I'm a longtime member at gm-volt.com and proud and happy owner of a of a Volt since January 2011.Love the all-electric Leaf too of course, just wish it had a lot more range or even a range extender/generator!

FYI below is a post by gm-volt.com forum moderator WopOnTour in response to what has been posted by dm33 on this site (someone at gm-volt.com made a thread reagarding it)
WOT (as he's often called) made a point of saying General Motors has nothing to do with gm-volt.com which is what dm33 appears to think. He was banned for good reasons I should think so beware any FUD.
In my experience there over the last 4 years there have been many hundreds (even thousands?) of posts from Volt owners about various issues and complaints and I've never seen them censored in any way. In fact WOT and the rest of the very knowledgable moderators seem to go out of their way to help people better understand their cars and its benefits and yes some linitiations and design flaws.
Wouldn't have it any other way!

With respect to the Leaf and its fans and owners
.LB

Nobody gets banned for merely being critical of the Volt, this is ESPECIALLY true for actual bona fide owners of the car
Real car people know there is no perfect car. This site is NOT owned or controlled by General Motors in any way.So there's nothing wrong with voicing any issues, concerns, or displeasure here- in fact we encourage it! (and will usually try to help!)

But gm-volt.com isn't a sandbox for children/idiots to play in merely in an attempt (however feable) to discredit the car and belittle or antagonize our membership and loyal Volt owners.
If any of our moderator staff reads through a series of user posts and feels they are obviously dealing with a troll- they have full permission (and capability) to ban that user. No questions asked.
Often however, (because they are such nice guys and would rather "convert" than ban) they will issue warnings via PM and perhaps a 1 week "time-out" (a temporary ban). But it's typically a 2-strikes you're out sort of thing. No need to test our patience, we have very little of it. So we give them a warning and perhaps just a little rope, and they typically commence to hang themselves! (like one Mark Modica)

When this forum's founder Dr. Lyle Dennis asked me to act as moderator here, his goals for the future of this site were clear and focused.
First and foremost this is a VOLT ENTHUSIAST AND OWNERS SUPPORT SITE.
Not a platform for anti-Volt/EV drivel or a soapbox for the detractors of electrification. They can waste their not so precious time in one of the dozens of EV or political blogs out there (including our own front page- they are not banned from participating there) Have at you! lol

But some banned trolls still find a way to return to the forums using new accounts created using a different email and/or from another IP (work vs. home?) or even using IP spoofing and/or other tricks.
But we have a few tricks too.
So judging someone based on a few posts may not tell the whole story.
A past banned troll might just eventually "slip up" and post on their new identity from a previously banned IP which eventually correlates and flags the user and based on the past ban he/she is immediately banned as well. It's happened quite often actually but typically only for a handful of persistant trolls. Some of these bans go back to 2008!

In the case of dm33 (aka DrEco) I went back and forth with him in a series of PMs and it got a bit ugly (and I'm not at all surprised he has chosen to take what I said out-of-context) and he was subsequently banned. No apologies. His motives were quite clear.
I think even from his post on hybridcars, he continues to reveal his true intent.

So what we are asking is for our membership to trust us in that we take these decisions seriously (often in group discussion) and only have the best interests of THIS forum and OUR members at heart and please remember- WE'RE VOLUNTEERS!

Sincerely
WopOnTour

PS> I must admit I did get a wee bit of personal satisfaction banning Mr. Modica from our community, but I hope you don't hold that against me!

original thread
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?47473-Unwarranted-Criticism-of-this-Site&p=625865#post625865" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Nobody gets banned for merely being critical of the Volt, this is ESPECIALLY true for actual bona fide owners of the car
Real car people know there is no perfect car. This site is NOT owned or controlled by General Motors in any way.So there's nothing wrong with voicing any issues, concerns, or displeasure here- in fact we encourage it! (and will usually try to help!)
...
Often however, (because they are such nice guys and would rather "convert" than ban) they will issue warnings via PM and perhaps a 1 week "time-out" (a temporary ban). But it's typically a 2-strikes you're out sort of thing. No need to test our patience, we have very little of it. So we give them a warning and perhaps just a little rope, and they typically commence to hang themselves! (like one Mark Modica)
...
In the case of dm33 (aka DrEco) I went back and forth with him in a series of PMs and it got a bit ugly (and I'm not at all surprised he has chosen to take what I said out-of-context) and he was subsequently banned. No apologies. His motives were quite clear.
I think even from his post on hybridcars, he continues to reveal his true intent.

original thread
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?47473-Unwarranted-Criticism-of-this-Site&p=625865#post625865" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If WopOnTour is saying I was in any way warned, that is NOT TRUE. I posted non-positive information on gm-volt.com. It was not an attempt to troll. I was not trying to insult or offend. Some people there are apparently very defensive about their purchase decision. Suddenly I was permanently banned. There was no timeout, no warning, no notice, no reason given, no way to contact anyone to find out why.

I registered another ID and asked WopOnTour. He responded and banned that ID as soon as I had read his response. I copied his response HERE.

In his response he states that they do want rose colored glasses. They don't want to hear criticism unless from owners.

Other users, 'dogma' in particular was suddenly banned when he posted that sales of the Volt were not meeting GM expectations. This was not insulting or rude post.

It is difficult on that site to know when someone has been banned. It is not labeled in any way. The only way I can tell is if you click on the ID while on the site, you cannot send them a private message where-as non-banned users have an option to send a private message.

WopOnTour claims that only Volt users are allowed to complain. But look how they treat their own. There are two threads just a couple of days old where Volt OWNERS are complaining of serious and even deadly issues with the Volt, only to have some members attack them as lying, making up the story, trying to discredit the Volt, working for Rush.
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?47465-An-Open-Letter-to-GM-Fix-this-before-someone-dies" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;!
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?47385-Battery-Punctured" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;!

I've never been banned from a site. I have never seen a site so worried about those who complain about the product.

The moderators on that site are hurting the site and the Volt by banning any dissenting voice they choose to, without other members realizing its happening.

It really is big reason why I'm trying to get a Leaf instead of a Volt.

 

[Deleted member 8423]

Let's leave the message board drama somewhere else and stay on topic please.

 

[scottf200]

ASIDE:

The moderators on that site are hurting the site and the Volt by banning any dissenting voice they choose to, without other members realizing its happening.

That is categorically not true from what I've seen in 3 years. Moderators there generally try to let the dynamics of the forum 'social group' be self-directed and self-moderated. As well as post they make they also use a report post button. Often there is a discussion in the moderator forum about certain members that act certain ways consistently (vs a bad day). That includes personal or juvenile attacks which are really frowned upon. Continue, repeated, and there are consequences. Good to have a forum "inviting" as the life blood of a long running and popular forum is new and helpful members. I've seen it over the past 3+ years on EV forums. I've tried to reason with folks in PM. I've given a few day ban to encourage better choices. When that stuff does not work then it is a longer ban. No problem with posting problems or negatives as long as it is reasonable not just drive by trolling. We have seen folks write wild accusations and exaggerations (hyperboles) just to get "attention". This site's members pounce on those and get proof quick.

MORE ON TOPIC:

It really is big reason why I'm trying to get a Leaf instead of a Volt.

These are mass produced cars are generally quite friendly even to the masses. They are not custom conversions or specialty vehicles. Many questions asked are even covered in the well thought out PDF searchable manuals. Often quoted by other members. I'm sure there are many LEAF and many Volt owners who never visit forums but just enjoy the cars. Forum acceptance/tolerance should not affect just a major purchase IMHO.

Historically, it seems that many LEAF owners thought the Volt was too complicated and the ICE would cause all sort of problems and expense. After a couple model years, great battery management/longevity, and excellent customer service/commitment by GM on some problems that came up, many realized the Volt was very dependable and the ICE not costly. I've only had 1 oil change in just over two years because of age as the oil life gauge was over 50% still.

I think the ICE existence still pushed and pushes people to buy the LEAF.

 

[JeffN]

ASIDE:

The moderators on that site are hurting the site and the Volt by banning any dissenting voice they choose to, without other members realizing its happening.

That is categorically not true from what I've seen in 3 years. Moderators there generally try to let the dynamics of the forum 'social group' be self-directed and self-moderated.

I don't follow gm-volt.com as often as I used to and I don't know anything about dm33's experience there. I will say, however, that I have personal experience with WOT being a somewhat heavy-handed and imperial "moderator".

There was a long thread with a confusing title and buried in the middle of it there was an extended discussion of when and how the Volt planetary transmission clutches in the mechanical connection between the gas engine and the wheels. Seeing that it was a persistent question and common point of confusion and misunderstand, I decided to create a dedicated thread (something I rarely do) with a clear thread title and I attempted to write a clear and concise description of how the transmission mechanically couples the engine. I figured a new thread would help newbies find answers to their questions on that specific topic.

Moments after I posted it, WOT swooped in and moved my post into the exist long thread and deleted my new thread. Minutes later I noticed I couldn't see my new thread and I found my message on the old thread. Since I rarely create threads I figured I had done something wrong or confused myself into posting on the existing thread. So, I recreated the new thread and my new message within it.

WOT then deleted my thread again and, for the first time, sent me a PM acknowledging that he had changed my postings. In the PM he accused me of deliberately trying to evade his changes. I replied that I had no idea he was messing with my posts and thought I had made an error when trying to create the new thread. I asked him in the future to PM people to let them know he had changed their content and to forward that request to the other moderators. It didn't occur to me at the time that there might be a moderators sub-forum where I could make that request directly.

This was 2 years ago so maybe his moderating social skills have improved or maybe he was just having a bad day.

 

[dndrich]

I think the Volt is an amazing achievement for GM. Such an interesting idea, and for a 1st generation product, they have done a great job. I thought the car was interesting when I test drove it. Nonetheless, I was not crazy about the car really. I'm just a standard sized guy at 5'9" and 162 lbs, but the car felt like I was wearing it. Very tight quarters. Just too claustrophobic for me. I was surprised at how small the car really is. It just doesn't look that small in the pictures. The back seat is even tighter, as is the luggage space. I was also not crazy about the execution of the touch buttons. But, if you have to have only one car, and need to go long distances, the Volt could be a great choice.

I like the Leaf as a car. Very spacious for a small car. Visibility and ride are really nice. Pretty well thought out for a first generation product. Also, the car is a bit of an experiment for me to see what it is like to live with an electric vehicle at the current state. Certainly some compromises from a range standpoint, no doubt about it. But the notion of all electric really appeals to me.

It is nice that the major manufacturers are now invested in trying to make some unique vehicles for the future.

 

[rcyoder]

Decision took about 2.5 seconds...

1) Wanted a simpler, more reliable vehicle (having both an electric and gasoline drive train means more maintenance.)
2) We already own one long distance vehicle (a VW EuroVan with Weekender Camper option), don't need another.
3) Leaf has more seats than a Volt.
4) Leaf has sufficient EV range that I don't need to use gas. (I get past 40 miles per day just enough that I'd still be using gas with a Volt. I very rarely get over 70 miles per day.)
5) Was jealous of my wife's RAV4-EV.
6) Leaf is less expensive to purchase.
7) GM took our EV1s away and crushed them! :evil: (Yes, I'm still bitter...)

 

[LEAFfan]

Let's leave the message board drama somewhere else and stay on topic please.

Dm33 IS on topic. You need to reread and absorb the meaning of this thread. They posted why they were pushed into a LEAF. So please be more careful before you criticize. Are you WoponTour using a different username?

 

[Foible]

I was looking for an electric vehicle so the Volt wasn't in the running. For me the choice was going to be between the Smart EV and an electrically assisted bicycle. When Smart still had nothing to sell me two weeks after their test drive event I discovered the Leaf and saved myself a bundle.

 

[Deleted member 8423]

Dm33 IS on topic. You need to reread and absorb the meaning of this thread.

The original answer may have been on topic (though not really IMO), but all of the follow up garbage is not.

Are you WoponTour using a different username?

Is it that obvious to you?

 

[jlsoaz]

Let's leave the message board drama somewhere else and stay on topic please.

Dm33 IS on topic. You need to reread and absorb the meaning of this thread. They posted why they were pushed into a LEAF. So please be more careful before you criticize. Are you WoponTour using a different username?

I have run into ITestStuff on gm-volt.com, so can confirm they are a poster there, under that name. I couldn't speak to the question of WOT. I recently lost my composure enough in speaking to ITestStuff on gm-volt.com so I thought it would be best to apologize, which I did. That said, I will in the future make an effort to reduce reading and responding to what they write.

As to the debate over whether this discussion is relevant, I guess I could see both sides. Dwelling on an extended discussion of the specifics of dm33's hurtful expulsion may be not super-productive for this discussion, but it is arguably worth noting that some people may have their buying decisions heavily influenced by their forum discussion experiences. We sometimes make car-buying decisions that other people may not find rational. They are our decisions and reasons, and whether other people like or respect our reasons or not, as you have rightly noted, this thread is asking for those reasons.

So, a super-negative experience in a forum or in being evicted from a discussion forum, whether justly or cruelly and unjustly, is apparently something that some people might allow to play a role in their buying decision, regardless of the affiliations (or lack of affiliations) of that forum with the manufacturer. (Did dm33 actually make their decision yet? If not, then I'm not sure it's a fully realized example of this.).

I, and I'm sure many others here, have served duty as moderators of an EV forum. My approach was never to use a heavy hand on evictions, but I realize others have a different approach. I have met posters who have been evicted both from gm-volt.com and, if memory serves, from mynissanleaf.com. I guess if nothing else dm33's comments serve to remind me of the importance of these forum conversations to some or many of us, and of the reality that some people will be significantly influenced in their xEV buying and leasing decisions by their forum communications and experience.

 

[mbender]

The big three for me were:

• Price, especially on leases.
• Not wanting to buy petroleum ever again.
• Nissan as a company and Ghosn (as its CEO) over GM as a company,
  vis-a-vis their commitment to and history with EVs.

Anecdotally, I had the chance to speak to the owner of a towing company, and he said that over the past couple of years he has towed only one LEAF but tows Volts almost weekly. I can't believe that the Volt is actually breaking down that often, so possibly Volt owners don't want to buy gas either, leave the tank empty, and then run out of range. (?) If that's the case, they are probably kicking themselves for not buying a LEAF!

 

[Deleted member 9549]

So, a super-negative experience in a forum or in being evicted from a discussion forum, whether justly or cruelly and unjustly, is apparently something that some people might allow to play a role in their buying decision, regardless of the affiliations (or lack of affiliations) of that forum with the manufacturer. (Did dm33 actually make their decision yet? If not, then I'm not sure it's a fully realized example of this.).

FYI, just leased a Leaf last night. Awesome deal on an SV. Very happy w it so far.
Forums are very important to provide information regarding products, especially complex products, and they've certainly influenced my (our) decision. I'm sure moderating is an important and difficult job, but one that needs to be handled with... moderation.

 

[Volusiano]

Anecdotally, I had the chance to speak to the owner of a towing company, and he said that over the past couple of years he has towed only one LEAF but tows Volts almost weekly. I can't believe that the Volt is actually breaking down that often, so possibly Volt owners don't want to buy gas either, leave the tank empty, and then run out of range. (?) If that's the case, they are probably kicking themselves for not buying a LEAF!

I can see how easily an annecdote can be twisted and bended into whatever people like to think.

I don't have any annedocte to share here, nor my own twisted interpretation of such an annecdote. But I do have a fact to share: The Volt has topped the Consumer Reports annual owners' satisfaction survey for 2 years in a row so far.

 

[jlsoaz]

So, a super-negative experience in a forum or in being evicted from a discussion forum, whether justly or cruelly and unjustly, is apparently something that some people might allow to play a role in their buying decision, regardless of the affiliations (or lack of affiliations) of that forum with the manufacturer. (Did dm33 actually make their decision yet? If not, then I'm not sure it's a fully realized example of this.).

FYI, just leased a Leaf last night. Awesome deal on an SV. Very happy w it so far.
Forums are very important to provide information regarding products, especially complex products, and they've certainly influenced my (our) decision. I'm sure moderating is an important and difficult job, but one that needs to be handled with... moderation.

Congrats on the lease.

Agreed on the forums comment.