Regular maintenance @ Dealership? Critical milestones?

[LeftieBiker]

Nissan uses the "severe" flush schedule, so if you can prove that your driving isn't "severe" and you have the flush done on the more reasonable 'normal' schedule, you don't have an issue. The component failure would also have to be of a brake system component, like the ABS.

 

[denwood]

My manual recommends every 2 years, but yes. Last time I did it myself and used ESI-6 fluid which promises 50% longer service so it'll be 3 years for this coming flush. I think you'll see brake fluid replacement increasingly become a standard maintenance item, and it's not just a money-grab. Most people recognize the importance of oil changes to protect their investment; this is much the same. And of course your life depends on this system.

I had similarly ordered DOT 5.1 for a brake fluid flush but returned it once I found it that is even more strongly hydrophilic than DOT3. Being that the LEAF will not benefit from higher fluid boiling points (unless you're racing it, or doing regular steep mountain descents, ha), I figure putting in DOT 3 will actually be better with respect to water absorption.

One other Youtuber (who was testing brake fluid for water content) basically said the same thing. After 1 year he found the 5.1 had absorbed enough water to require changing it out. I'm assuming this is why the industry is not just putting 5.1 in everything as the Bosch 5.1 fluid is not that expensive. Higher water absorption though would make it a liability if you're running a $4000 brake controller in the car..as the LEAF is.

If I was autocrossing or similar, I'd use the 5.1...otherwise, I'll stick to regular DOT3 flushes. Brake fluid's water affinity increases from DOT 3, to DOT 4, to DOT 5.1.

 

[tony17112acst]

Dave: Brake fluid is hydroscopic which means it attracts moisture (from the humidity in the air). Changing brake fluid regularly is required because if you do not, the lines will corrode. I would not wait 5 years because of this. I plan on doing mine every year; it's an easy DIY if you watch a video.

 

[Nubo]

I had similarly ordered DOT 5.1 for a brake fluid flush but returned it once I found it that is even more strongly hydrophilic than DOT3. Being that the LEAF will not benefit from higher fluid boiling points (unless you're racing it, or doing regular steep mountain descents, ha), I figure putting in DOT 3 will actually be better with respect to water absorption.

One other Youtuber (who was testing brake fluid for water content) basically said the same thing. After 1 year he found the 5.1 had absorbed enough water to require changing it out. I'm assuming this is why the industry is not just putting 5.1 in everything as the Bosch 5.1 fluid is not that expensive. Higher water absorption though would make it a liability if you're running a $4000 brake controller in the car..as the LEAF is....

I'll suggest fluid test parameters developed for DOT3 aren't 100% applicable to more modern fluids. Wet boiling point and corrosion resistance don't correlate with H2O% in the same way. In fact it's part of the reason for the newer standards.

For now I'll put Bosch engineering and testing results above anecdotal Youtuber conclusions but I'll get some test strips just for fun before I flush the fluid, now coming up on 3 years. It looks pristine in the reservoir but I am interested to see what comes out of the wheel cylinders.

There could be many reasons for OEM adoption rates, such as perceived cost/availability and also viscosity, which is addressed in the Bosch fluid but seemed to be a drawback for 5.1 in general. The viscosity of the fluid affects responsiveness of ABS and vehicle stability systems.

 

[denwood]

It would be interesting to see how the 5.1 fluid is holding up with regard to moisture.

The consensus (at least that I've read so far) is that in exchange for the higher boiling points of 5.1 vs 4 vs 3, you need to increase flush frequency due to the increased hydroscopic nature of the fluids. I've got a digital tester on the way so am tempted to compare 3 vs 4 vs 5.1 with respect to moisture uptake. Usually with automotive tech, particularly engine oil, switching to newer tech is a good thing with no downside. WIth brake fluid, the situation may be different.

My thinking is this. If you're driving a LEAF, the higher boiling points won't be in issue unless you're racing or descending mountains. However, if the fluid has a higher affinity to absorb moisture (and you're not doing yearly changes) then you may actually be exacerbating corrosion likelihood with fluid that retains more moisture. If you're flushing yearly, then I would assume 3, 4 or 5.1 won't matter.

One thing I did notice on the 5.1 spec is lower viscosity at very cold temps, which in my case is not a bad thing. Nub[/b], does your LEAF see temps below -10 C? Just curious if you notice anything different with respect to pedal feel or any ABS/stability issues in cold ? My spidey sense on the large difference in viscosity (cold temp) between 3 and 5.1 is that if anything it should increase ABS performance at very cold temps, not hurt it.

I have a Motive pressure bleeder, but just sourced a Speedibleed system specifically because they have a pressure cap that fits my 2018 LEAF reservoir. Does anyone see a point to shoot a quick video on the system? I do our vehicles pretty much every 2 years now so having a pressure bleeder on hand makes the job a lot quicker/easier working alone. Bleeding via vaccuum at the calipers, or any method that uses the bleeder screw in negative pressure does not completely evacuate air in my experience. Been at this for a long time too

Here's a good read on the fluid differences: https://centricparts.com/getmedia/aaff9ed4-541c-45a4-abc2-a3b667385808/Centric_and_APC_Technical_Whitepaper_D1-Brake-Fluid-1A_8-2018.pdf

Note the caution about switching from DOT 3 to 4 with regard to Borate Esters and seals...

As a trailing note on the DOT ratings, if your car was designed for a particular type of fluid
(especially prior to the development of DOT 4 fluids), you should make every attempt to stick
with that fluid! For example, if your car was delivered with DOT 3 fluid, the internal
components of the system (seals, brake hoses, and fittings for example) were specifically
designed and tested for compatibility with DOT 3. Because DOT 4 fluids contain a different
chemical composition, the system may not necessarily react in a positive fashion to the borate
esters floating around in the mix.
In other cases, just the difference in viscosity of the two different fluids may cause the seals to
wear at different rates. What starts as an annoying squeak might eventually become a torn seal
or worse. The examples could go on and on, but the message here is this: it’s fine to upgrade
from DOT 3 fluid A to DOT 3 fluid B, but you should think twice (maybe even three times)
before switching from DOT 3 fluid A to DOT 4 fluid of any sort

 

[Steelcity]

It would be interesting to see how the 5.1 fluid is holding up with regard to moisture.

The consensus (at least that I've read so far) is that in exchange for the higher boiling points of 5.1 vs 4 vs 3, you need to increase flush frequency due to the increased hydroscopic nature of the fluids. I've got a digital tester on the way so am tempted to compare 3 vs 4 vs 5.1 with respect to moisture uptake. Usually with automotive tech, particularly engine oil, switching to newer tech is a good thing with no downside. WIth brake fluid, the situation may be different.

My thinking is this. If you're driving a LEAF, the higher boiling points won't be in issue unless you're racing or descending mountains. However, if the fluid has a higher affinity to absorb moisture (and you're not doing yearly changes) then you may actually be exacerbating corrosion likelihood with fluid that retains more moisture. If you're flushing yearly, then I would assume 3, 4 or 5.1 won't matter.

One thing I did notice on the 5.1 spec is lower viscosity at very cold temps, which in my case is not a bad thing. Nub[/b], does your LEAF see temps below -10 C? Just curious if you notice anything different with respect to pedal feel or any ABS/stability issues in cold ? My spidey sense on the large difference in viscosity (cold temp) between 3 and 5.1 is that if anything it should increase ABS performance at very cold temps, not hurt it.

I have a Motive pressure bleeder, but just sourced a Speedibleed system specifically because they have a pressure cap that fits my 2018 LEAF reservoir. Does anyone see a point to shoot a quick video on the system? I do our vehicles pretty much every 2 years now so having a pressure bleeder on hand makes the job a lot quicker/easier working alone. Bleeding via vaccuum at the calipers, or any method that uses the bleeder screw in negative pressure does not completely evacuate air in my experience. Been at this for a long time too

Tell me more about your pressure bleeder , I was ready to pull the trigger on a air powered vacuum bleeder for my vehicles. I'm guessing you need different adapters for every master cylinder? And any issues pushing the fluid pass the abs module? Also do this have a place where u dump brake fluid in or do u keep filling the MC? Thanks

 

[SageBrush]

I had similarly ordered DOT 5.1 for a brake fluid flush but returned it once I found it that is even more strongly hydrophilic than DOT3.

If I have this down correctly, DOT 5 (NOT 5.1) is silicone based and the other DOT are not. Since fluid drain and fill procedures allow mixing between old and new fluid, DOT 5.1 should not be used where any other DOT was present because mixing is ill-advised due to foaming.

I'm going to pay more and buy the OEM NIssan DOT 3 for my 2013 LEAF just to be on the safe side of not mixing incompatible chemicals that can be present in DOT 3 from different manufacturers. If I knew which DOT manufacturer NIssan buys from, I would probably seek the generic from the same manufacturer.

 

[denwood]

I edited my post above to include some more information on DOT 3, 4 and 5.1 including a caution on going from DOT 3 to DOT 4 (5.1).
Without knowing exactly what kind of seals are used in the rather expensive LEAF system, I'd be hard pressed to recommend doing DOT 4 or 5.1 in that system.

Steel, I have a Motive unit, but have just sourced the Speedibleed system: https://www.speedibleed.com/k1000-nissan-brake-bleeder-kit.html I can confirm that this fits the 2018 and up LEAF with the 2 prong cap.

2011 to 2017 LEAFs used the 3 prong cap so this kit will work: https://www.speedibleed.com/k500-ford-asian-brake-bleeder-kit.html

The site ordering process is clunky (I ordered directly from their site), but order confirmation emails and email tracks were sent right away and the parts arrived in a few days. I posted the "pro" version of both those kits which is worth the few extra dollars.

Motive does not make a 2 prong cap to fit newer LEAFs, so you will want the Speedibleed. You add fluid to the bottle on both and then pressurise the system via the reservoir cap to about 15 psi. Speedibleed uses pressure from a tire (so you could use nitrogen to charge!) but I've modified it to use 15psi via my air compressor system. I have a dryer/dessicant system so will use air via that system to ensure dry air is used. Motive uses a hand pump on the reservoir which I'm not crazy about. I also like that Speedibleed uses a quick disconnect for their caps (Motive, not) and includes a very nice little pressure regulator on the system.

You'll find that you will never get a "hard" pedal by using a system that pulls from the bleeder screw. When you loosen the bleeder screw and attach a bleed tube to it, air can still make it's way back into the caliper via the bleeder screw threads. With the two person method (one on the pedal inside the car) you only have the bleed screw open under pressure, but it is easy to make a mistake and suck air back in. With the pressure bleeder, the system is always under pressure so there is no danger of air getting back in if you follow the procedure. One big warning though is that you must ensure the pressure bleeder/reservoir does not run dry. Keep watching it and add fluid if it gets low. If you get air into the ABS system on some cars (like my A3 TDI), then you are in for a few hours of bleeding with a laptop to power the ABS system. Not sure on the LEAF...but don't let it run dry!!

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ-aGNK-6G8[/youtube]

Both Motive and Speedibleed have "universal" caps but don't bother trying. They are a waste of time. Using a cap designed to fit your reservoir will save you a lot of time and aggravation. The newer LEAFs have an angled, small reservoir neck so it would be nearly impossible to use any kind of universal cap on it...enter the Speedibleed setup. I have caps for Audi, Honda, Toyota and the LEAF, and have never had issues with ABS, other than letting the system run dry on my Audi. Lesson learned after 2-3 hoist lifts/bleeding sessions using $500 VAG software and a laptop...

 

[Steelcity]

I edited my post above to include some more information on DOT 3, 4 and 5.1 including a caution on going from DOT 3 to DOT 4 (5.1).
Without knowing exactly what kind of seals are used in the rather expensive LEAF system, I'd be hard pressed to recommend doing DOT 4 or 5.1 in that system.

Steel, I have a Motive unit, but have just sourced the Speedibleed system: https://www.speedibleed.com/k1000-nissan-brake-bleeder-kit.html I can confirm that this fits the 2018 and up LEAF with the 2 prong cap.

2011 to 2017 LEAFs used the 3 prong cap so this kit will work: https://www.speedibleed.com/k500-ford-asian-brake-bleeder-kit.html

The site ordering process is clunky (I ordered directly from their site), but order confirmation emails and email tracks were sent right away and the parts arrived in a few days. I posted the "pro" version of both those kits which is worth the few extra dollars.

Motive does not make a 2 prong cap to fit newer LEAFs, so you will want the Speedibleed. You add fluid to the bottle on both and then pressurise the system via the reservoir cap to about 15 psi. Speedibleed uses pressure from a tire (so you could use nitrogen to charge!) but I've modified it to use 15psi via my air compressor system. I have a dryer/dessicant system so will use air via that system to ensure dry air is used. Motive uses a hand pump on the reservoir which I'm not crazy about. I also like that Speedibleed uses a quick disconnect for their caps (Motive, not) and includes a very nice little pressure regulator on the system.

You'll find that you will never get a "hard" pedal by using a system that pulls from the bleeder screw. When you loosen the bleeder screw and attach a bleed tube to it, air can still make it's way back into the caliper via the bleeder screw threads. With the two person method (one on the pedal inside the car) you only have the bleed screw open under pressure, but it is easy to make a mistake and suck air back in. With the pressure bleeder, the system is always under pressure so there is no danger of air getting back in if you follow the procedure. One big warning though is that you must ensure the pressure bleeder/reservoir does not run dry. Keep watching it and add fluid if it gets low. If you get air into the ABS system on some cars (like my A3 TDI), then you are in for a few hours of bleeding with a laptop to power the ABS system. Not sure on the LEAF...but don't let it run dry!!

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ-aGNK-6G8[/youtube]

Both Motive and Speedibleed have "universal" caps but don't bother trying. They are a waste of time. Using a cap designed to fit your reservoir will save you a lot of time and aggravation. The newer LEAFs have an angled, small reservoir neck so it would be nearly impossible to use any kind of universal cap on it...enter the Speedibleed setup. I have caps for Audi, Honda, Toyota and the LEAF, and have never had issues with ABS, other than letting the system run dry on my Audi. Lesson learned after 2-3 hoist lifts/bleeding sessions using $500 VAG software and a laptop...

Thanks for the reply. And wow does that look so much easier than my hand pump vacuum.

 

[denwood]

I have a vacuum setup too..used it once but never again for brake bleeding.

 

[Steelcity]

I have a handful of cars I maintain and it would stink to get all adapters for the different master cylinders. To bad they don't make some kind of fernco looking universal adapter.....

 

[goldbrick]

FWIW, I consider it worth the effort to drain the fluid from the brake fluid reservoir with a turkey baster and filling it with new fluid before starting. That way all the old fluid in the reservoir isn't pushed through the lines before the new fluid arrives.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Usually with automotive tech, particularly engine oil, switching to newer tech is a good thing with no downside.

The big exception here was synthetic oil. When it was first introduced it was intended for new cars, but naturally it got used in older used ones as well. It had a nasty tendency, because it was invariably high detergent, to "clean" the oil seals to the point where if they had any normally harmless varnish on the metal under them, they would leak oil - sometimes LOTS of it, sometimes nuisance amounts. I actually had this happen with a motorcycle: a 1980 Suzuki GS850G that I switched to full synthetic in the late Eighties. It developed a small but unstoppable leak in a cylinder head oil seal, and I had to spend about $500 to have a new gasket and seal set installed. I could have just put cardboard under it, and I did for about a season, but my OCD demanded that it be fixed...

 

[denwood]

Leftie, I do run synthetic in everything (including air compressors and snow blower) because we see very low temps here. I here you on the leak thing though.

Here is the Bosch ESI6 (DOT 5.1) flyer: https://www.boschautoparts.com/documents/647135/656981/ESI6%20Brake%20Fluid%20Flyer.pdf

I ordered some up to give it a try. They do specify a 3 year service life in the car, and a shelf life of 5 years in unopened bottles. Nubo's car isn't springing leaks left and right

Steel, maybe take a look here: https://www.speedibleed.com/products/brake-bleeding-kit-complete.html?make=0&model=0&year=0&option=0

I tried the Motive universal kit a few times and hated it...waste of time really.

 

[LeftieBiker]

It really was a crapshoot. Most of my vehicles made the transition without leaking, but it got pretty suspenseful. I also use full synthetic in small engines like the big snowblower and the generator. Interestingly, Chinese-made small engines now usually specify full synthetic - probably to compensate for the lower quality of the materials and workmanship.

 

[Nubo]

It would be interesting to see how the 5.1 fluid is holding up with regard to moisture.

The consensus (at least that I've read so far) is that in exchange for the higher boiling points of 5.1 vs 4 vs 3, you need to increase flush frequency due to the increased hydroscopic nature of the fluids. I've got a digital tester on the way so am tempted to compare 3 vs 4 vs 5.1 with respect to moisture uptake. Usually with automotive tech, particularly engine oil, switching to newer tech is a good thing with no downside. WIth brake fluid, the situation may be different.

My thinking is this. If you're driving a LEAF, the higher boiling points won't be in issue unless you're racing or descending mountains. However, if the fluid has a higher affinity to absorb moisture (and you're not doing yearly changes) then you may actually be exacerbating corrosion likelihood with fluid that retains more moisture. If you're flushing yearly, then I would assume 3, 4 or 5.1 won't matter.

One thing I did notice on the 5.1 spec is lower viscosity at very cold temps, which in my case is not a bad thing. Nub[/b], does your LEAF see temps below -10 C? Just curious if you notice anything different with respect to pedal feel or any ABS/stability issues in cold ? My spidey sense on the large difference in viscosity (cold temp) between 3 and 5.1 is that if anything it should increase ABS performance at very cold temps, not hurt it.

No, it never gets quite that cold here. I agree about lower vis being better for ABS though, at any temperature. My earlier assertion of "thicker" 5.1 fluid was mistaken. Bosch beats the 5.1 spec but the spec itself is already lower viscosity than 3 or 4. As far as corrosion, it may be more dependent on how well the fluid disperses the water and anti-corrosion additives than the absolute water percentage, just as how 5.1 manages a much higher boiling point in the presence of water. I see those "more frequent" flush recommendations for 5.1 but somehow Bosch is suggesting a longer interval at 3 years. It's an interesting disagreement.

 

[Nubo]

Usually with automotive tech, particularly engine oil, switching to newer tech is a good thing with no downside.

The big exception here was synthetic oil. When it was first introduced it was intended for new cars, but naturally it got used in older used ones as well. It had a nasty tendency, because it was invariably high detergent, to "clean" the oil seals to the point where if they had any normally harmless varnish on the metal under them, they would leak oil - sometimes LOTS of it, sometimes nuisance amounts. I actually had this happen with a motorcycle: a 1980 Suzuki GS850G that I switched to full synthetic in the late Eighties. It developed a small but unstoppable leak in a cylinder head oil seal, and I had to spend about $500 to have a new gasket and seal set installed. I could have just put cardboard under it, and I did for about a season, but my OCD demanded that it be fixed...

Synthetic oil is a constant topic of debate for rotary-engine users (my vehicle prior to LEAF was an RX-8).
My take on the early Synthetic oil problem was missing ingredients common in mineral oil that tend to cause slight harmless swelling of certain rubber seals. After switching, seals which had worn-in properly in their swollen state, subsequently shrank with the synthetic formula, causing leaks. The synthetic makers responded fairly quickly by adding seal conditioning agents to return balance to the Force.

 

[Nubo]

I had similarly ordered DOT 5.1 for a brake fluid flush but returned it once I found it that is even more strongly hydrophilic than DOT3.

If I have this down correctly, DOT 5 (NOT 5.1) is silicone based and the other DOT are not. Since fluid drain and fill procedures allow mixing between old and new fluid, DOT 5.1 should not be used where any other DOT was present because mixing is ill-advised due to foaming.
...

I think you meant DOT5, which does foam. As far as I have read, 3,4 and 5.1 are all compatible as long as you're not going below the spec listed for the vehicle.