REALLY!!! $200 gas tax.

[LoveMy18Leaf]

Ohio has a loophole. If you transfer registration from a gasser, you don't pay the EV fees.

Unfortunately, the $200 EV Fee begins at next renewal

 

[ibeckerman]

This is emerging as a problem in Pennsylvania. The main problem is that a system built on collecting gas taxes to support infrastructure cannot deal with EV's. This leads to massive unfairness, as a gas-sipping Prius might pay 1/4 as much per mile as an EV. EV Fees are geared to fleet averages, which are around 24 mpg.

 

[Chad E. Mo]

Unfortunately, the $200 EV Fee begins at next renewal

True.
But if you renew the gasser for five years before transfer, the loophole applies for those years.
(After that, you gotta pony-up as usual.)

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

This complaint comes up a few times a year but the math doesn't change. The ONLY thing that matters is what stays in the wallet.

I pay $225 a year for my EVness and VERY HAPPY to do it. I am running under $500 a year for "fuel" (the EV tab renewal fee is listed under fuel BTW...) and NEWSFLASH! The gas tax ONLY happens when YOU BUY GAS!

So any calculation that doesn't have an all in (or actually "all out of the wallet") figure is simply SPIN.

 

[MikeinPA]

In case you think me in the tinfoil hat crowd:
https://www.motor1.com/news/678659/utah-road-usage-tax-by-mile-pilot-program/
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AQFnoECBoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2pXIV4jNQrtZeL_nBTgxti

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AQFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2xjUgLwNgBb5bqygrojpe1
And in case you think it is just states, here is a link about the fed's getting involved.
https://fortune.com/2023/06/27/gas-...el-efficiency-evs-states-tracking-road-usage/

I would be interested in your take on PA's trial program: https://www.penndot.pa.gov/about-us...Pages/MBUF-Gas-Tax-Comparison-Calculator.aspx

 

[cornbinder89]

I have no problem with taxes or fee's to support our roads. I have a problem with tracking people to determine the fee.
I didn't see how PA proposes to verify the miles? May it is there, but I didn't see it.
I tried plugging in an EV and Penn and the calculator froze?
EV's need to pay their own way. Early adopters have got used to finding places to recharge for free, (not all places, but there are many that don't charge for L-2 and some business's are installing chargers for their work force. While I think it is great they do, some think everything should be free.
What I am concerned about are GPS based taxation.

 

[RogerRDalTx]

I'm in Texas and recently bought a 2019 SL Plus, ours tags include a $200 EV fee and I was surprised to see that. Yes, it's a tad unfair. Especially considering I drive about 6,000 mi a year. For me, the Leaf isn't saving any money compared to the Honda it replaced. But it was a huge tech upgrade and that's the reason I bought the car. Road maintenance fees have to come some somewhere, it's just a little odd that compared to what I would have spent on our gasoline tax the EV is costing me more annually.

 

[dhyatt]

View attachment 3627

Yep, Missouri has $120 a year gas tax...someone has to pay for the roads and you are not paying gas tax..

 

[MikeinPA]

I have no problem with taxes or fee's to support our roads. I have a problem with tracking people to determine the fee.
I didn't see how PA proposes to verify the miles? May it is there, but I didn't see it.
I tried plugging in an EV and Penn and the calculator froze?
EV's need to pay their own way. Early adopters have got used to finding places to recharge for free, (not all places, but there are many that don't charge for L-2 and some business's are installing chargers for their work force. While I think it is great they do, some think everything should be free.
What I am concerned about are GPS based taxation.

Sorry, that was the dumb PA State Gov's web servers doing their weird document hide and seek routine. I though I was pointing to this: https://tetcoalitionmbuf.org/wp-con...Fee-Approaches-for-All-Users_Fact-Sheet-1.pdf

 

[cornbinder89]

Right in there they say it allows for "time of day and Cordon pricing" Yep drive here at this time and we'll charge more. Also I didn't see where pricing would be based on vehicle model, it seams if it is a passenger vehicle, they all pay the same tax regardless of if it is a Prius or Hummer.
Way too much control and info being handed over to bureaucrats.
Wake up and tell them NO.

 

[Drew21]

Lots of interesting ideas here, as well as some real concerns.

1) It seems reasonable that all vehicles using roads should contribute to the maintenance of said roads (aside: maintenance funding based on current gas tax is insufficient as the majority of roads are getting bad).

2) It also seems reasonable that each road user's maintenance contribution should scale with their usage. Basically, more miles driven should equal a larger contribution. Larger/heavier vehicles causing more wear-and-tear to roads should equal a larger contribution.

3) EVs pay no gas tax, which ICE drivers obviously consider unfair. Conversely, a standardized EV road usage rate may also be unfair for someone who drives limited miles (e.g., a retiree who owns a Leaf for local driving only).

4) Paying by the kWh used seems like a possible solution for EVs (potentially recorded by each vehicle, or through the EVSE, etc), but as many have pointed out there is no easy way to implement that system into the many existing EVs on the road.

5) Others have suggested that all vehicles pay by the mile driven and weight class, which seems like the most equitable choice to me.

I'll note that every state I've registered a car in over the past 25 years has required an annual or biennial vehicle inspection. They note the mileage at that time. They obviously know what model of car I'm getting inspected. It wouldn't seem like a big leap to implement:

A) annual inspection for all EV and ICE vehicles;
B) document mileage at inspection;
C) road usage fee assessed based on miles driven and vehicle type/weight class;
D) get rid of gas tax for ICE vehicles, which hasn't been scaled to support adequate road maintenance over the past few decades.

In this scenario, if you drive a small/light EV or ICE vehicle a few thousand miles a year, your road usage rate would be low. If you choose to commute in a Hummer EV or 1-ton RAM diesel dually pickup, your road usage fee will be higher.

The obvious complaint would be that folks who either drive a lot or need large vehicles for work (couriers, long-distance trucking, farmers/ranchers) will pay a higher road usage fee, but it would seem like those same people already pay a higher gas tax, right?

As a bonus for those who don't want government monitoring, this plan doesn't know where, when, how, or why you drive, only that you drove X miles in Y vehicle over the previous year.

 

[garyacrowellsr]

Idaho is $140/year EV charge. At my miles, that's about 3 cents/mile, which is more than I pay for the electricity.

 

[MikeinPA]

Right in there they say it allows for "time of day and Cordon pricing" Yep drive here at this time and we'll charge more. Also I didn't see where pricing would be based on vehicle model, it seams if it is a passenger vehicle, they all pay the same tax regardless of if it is a Prius or Hummer.
Way too much control and info being handed over to bureaucrats.
Wake up and tell them NO.

Yes, all supposedly private information eventually gets misused in one way or another. PA is going all cameras on the toll roads--so everyone is now being tracked on the keystone state's highways anyway... https://www.paturnpike.com/all-electronic-tolling/open-road-tolling quote All data is secured and not shared. endquote

 

[mwalsh]

So much freedom in those red states.

 

[cornbinder89]

Yes, all supposedly private information eventually gets misused in one way or another. PA is going all cameras on the toll roads--so everyone is now being tracked on the keystone state's highways anyway... https://www.paturnpike.com/all-electronic-tolling/open-road-tolling quote All data is secured and not shared. endquote

There is so much I see wrong with it, hard just to pick out the high points.
Before I do, I would like to be clear, I'm for those that use the roads to fund them.
1st it requires a pre-paid deposit with the state, if done like EZ-pass for tolling, it requires a credit card and deposits in minimum amounts. Obviously thought up by someone who has no idea how the real poor live, most do not have a credit card, some don't have a bank account, none can afford to make deposits in $50 or more increments. I remember days in my youth, putting a few dollars of gas in the tank and hoping it lasted to payday.
2nd, it will require a huge bureaucracy to set up and manage, instead of policing a limited number of gas stations, every car will now need an account.
Their PR BS claim that it will somehow be "fair to rural people who drive older cars" is just BS. even if you take what they say at face value, their own numbers show a $9 saving PER YEAR on the low side and at most $34 PER YEAR on the high, and for that we give up privacy on where and when you drive and are open to time and place"surcharges" at the whim of the governing body. What they don't show is just about everybody other than their select few are going to pay WAY more to support all the bureaucracy to admin this system, before dollar one is made over the current system.
Fuel tax is adjusted 4 times a year (once a quarter), If you can only afford to pay a little until payday (pay at the pump) that is fine, but even if you have enough money, you only have to pay for a tanks worth of tax at a time, not $50 or more that the state gets interest on and you do not!
Rural drivers (and I am one) drive more miles, that is likely true, we don't spend our time sitting in traffic burning through fuel that is not going to getting us down the road. Rural roads see less traffic and need less repair, so we are paying for the more trafficed roads anyway. Yes, many poor and rural people drive older vehicles, they always have and likely will. Some of that is choice, some is need, but many intercity poor drive old clunker also and this proposal does nothing to help them. If you want to help the poor, then help them, but don't disguise a big tax on them (intercity poor) as in someway helping them.
Outside of the EV problem, the only reason the fuel tax fails to keep up with the need, is the lack of political will to keep the tax rate up with inflation, period!
Every time a new fee or tax is proposed we are told it is to make it more fair, or is temporary. How many times I have heard that they are tolling roads "only until it is paid for". Only Ky has pulled their toll booths off the parkway's once they have been paid for. NY Throughway and the Penn Tpk are some of the oldest toll roads in the country with some of the highest tolls/mile. Why? have they not been paid for? We sure don't get road tax credited back for miles we are paying double for when we travel on them!
Why are non plug in hybrids paying a surcharge? all their battery power is derived from the gasoline burned. They just store the excess and don't receive it from an outside source. Yes, they get good mileage, but shouldn't pay a surcharge for being more efficient than a "crew-cab" pick-up. If you feel they aren't paying enough road tax, than raise the fuel tax. In reality, small vehicles are paying more when compared to the wear they cause than bigger heavier vehicles, and the crew-cab truck should pay more.
People are willing to let unfair things happen to someone else, but scream bloody murder when they are the ones at the disadvantage.
I totally agree the EV problem to road tax is one that needs to be solved, and I am willing to pay to solve it, but the proposal does neither, it creates far bigger problems and opens the door to far more intrusion than most are willing to accept if they took the time to think about it.
The beauty of a fuel tax (be it liquid or electrical "fuel") is it is paid more or less "as you go", accounts for size and weight differences, doesn't require a big bureaucracy to admin, and only requires periodic adjustments to the tax to account for inflation. It also promotes (by rewarding those that use less) other things society claims to value.
A flat tax on electrics isn't really good for a number of reasons, and mileage tax is better, but still lacks when compared to fuel tax for being fair.
I hope people will realize what is at stake with these proposals and the fact once they are enacted it is too late, and they aren't likely to be repealed.

 

[MikeinPA]

So much freedom in those red states.

Technically PA is blue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_states_and_blue_states . But the state government is heavily weighed down by all the fracking interests and their big piles of moola.

 

[LeftieBiker]

New York, while considered a Blue State, is actually "Purple." The Biggest cities are Blue, but the rural areas, along with many of the suburban areas are majority Red in their voting habits and beliefs. In the 21st Century, there are relatively few states that are solidly Red or Blue...

 

[aqn]

The fairest is easiest is just odometer reading for EV. That's not intrusive. I don't need a meter on my home charger.

As already suggested: use odometer reading and vehicle weight.

The issue is not just how to levy tax on EVs but also how to make that tax comparable to gasoline tax that ICEV drivers pay. I am completely OK with paying. I'm not OK with paying at a greater rate than ICEV drivers.

Here in Texas, the amount of gas tax paid by the average driver is $112 a year. (See below.) I have to pay $200 on top of the registration fee. That's almost twice as much as the average ICEV driver pay.

References:
Texas' extra EV reg fee: $200.
Average fuel economy of gasoline cars, trucks, and SUVs: 24 mpg.
Average distance driven per year: 13,476 miles
Texas gasoline tax: $0.20/gallon.

 

[aqn]

I don't think a Leaf should pay the same tax as a massive Hummer or Cybertruck. And, just as folks who drive their ICE cars less consume less gas and pay less gas tax, the EV tax should match how much we use the roads.

Just as California ICE cars need to get smog tested every other year, EVs should get their odometers read at the same facilities.

It's not just vehicle weight and damage to roads. It's also other costs. For instance, how much is the environmental cost of ICEV's versus EVs? ICEVs should be penalized for f(*king up the environment and the air that we all have to share. How about the cost to public health of ICEV emissions?

 

[aqn]

I was thinking more along the line of an internal memory on the onboard charger itself, Kwh that pass through the charger in a year being the basis for the tax, that way someone who charges off grid but uses public hiways is also taxed.

Ok, great point and idea. But it's a massive hurdle to implement in all cars - old and new. And I don't mean because of the technical challenges doing this, but in updating all the EVs on the road.

Not to mention that with gasoline, the number of pumps, where the gas tax is levied, is tiny compared to the number of ICEVs. With EVs, each charger is a "pump".