REALLY!!! $200 gas tax.

[BillAinCT]

and have the fast chargers include the road tax in the price.

This is more like a gas tax, yes, good point. For home charging (probably around 97% in my case) let the POCO add the tax on kWh as you say. It would rely on the POCO having access to the EVSE to know the usage which is far from commonplace. My EVSE does have this capability and I get money back (a mailed check) for charging outside of prime hours. I also can get more back if they need to reduce charging current as needed based on their demand.

 

[cornbinder89]

I was thinking more along the line of an internal memory on the onboard charger itself, Kwh that pass through the charger in a year being the basis for the tax, that way someone who charges off grid but uses public hiways is also taxed.

 

[Chad E. Mo]

re: tire taxes...

The tire blowout scenario is simple enough - the tax includes road hazard coverage: the tax is pro-rated like the cost of the replacement tire.
The snow-tire scenario is also self-administrating... the use of one set of tires is necessarily delaying the consumption of the other set and subsequently delaying the taxes incurred when they get replaced.

But as KazooBruce points out, it's easy enough to use the odometer reading and curb-weight of the vehicle to assess proportional road use.

 

[Chad E. Mo]

Ohio has a loophole. If you transfer registration from a gasser, you don't pay the EV fees.

 

[BillAinCT]

I was thinking more along the line of an internal memory on the onboard charger itself, Kwh that pass through the charger in a year being the basis for the tax, that way someone who charges off grid but uses public hiways is also taxed.

Ok, great point and idea. But it's a massive hurdle to implement in all cars - old and new. And I don't mean because of the technical challenges doing this, but in updating all the EVs on the road.

 

[Yodrak]

$111 Alternate Fuel Tax here in Missouri, applies to any vehicle fuel other than gasoline or diesel. Been going up a few dollars every year. Payable annually in January, separate from the registration fee.

I agree with those who think the most appropriate alternative would be a tax based on mileage, for all vehicles. Report the mileage on the registration renewal form. (How to report the starting mileage might take some thought.). Some people might be tempted to cheat on the reporting, but they could be caught by requiring a final mileage check when selling or otherwise de-registering the car.

I'm sure the gas stations would be happy to give up the job of being a tax collector for the state. (Whether they'd reflect all of the savings in reduced gas prices is a another question.)

What's going to prevent any change in the near future is the effort and cost to implement an alternative 'road-use tax' system. And for sure, today's political divide will prevent (in alphabetical order) Democrats and Republicans from agreeing on appropriate alternative methodologies. (Presently the Feds aren't in on collecting a road-use tax from EVs, but the gas stations will not want to continue collecting a federal gas tax if they are no longer required to collect a state tax.)

In short - it's complicated.

 

[cornbinder89]

I think the real reason we will not see any of the common sense solutions is state and federal want a GPS based tax, and rather than solve the problem, they'll say GPS is the only solution.
Then it can be used for tolling, time and location based taxing and more once it is implemented.
I hope everyone will fight it every step of the way/

 

[cornbinder89]

I agree with those who think the most appropriate alternative would be a tax based on mileage, for all vehicles. Report the mileage on the registration renewal form. (How to report the starting mileage might take some thought.).

In short - it's complicated.

This is how fuel tax is collected on heavy trucks, but it required quarterly reports and audits. For Trucks is it called IFTA (International fuel tax agreement) and covers most of the US and Canada. I used to do the filings for my company. Not bad for a few trucks, but a whole department for a large fleet.
Not workable for the general population.
Cars don't use much fuel, and they figure its a "wash" for those that live close to a states boarder, and may buy in one state but drive more miles in another. The "self admin" of the fuel tax is why it lasted so long and does a fair job of each paying there way.
Trucks have to account for every mile, and which state those miles were run in. Then every gal of fuel purchased in each jurisdiction (with tax paid at purchase) and then check to see each state got their correct amount, according to the tax rate in that state (plus any surcharge above the pump price that state may collect) then adjust any overage or underage based on the final distribution. Overage can come from buying more fuel than you used in a "high tax state" and buying less than you used in a "low tax state", underage is the reverse.
Every quarter I spent a weekend day going through fuel receipts and mileage sheets in order to fill out the forms and send them in.
Kwh used to charge would be the fairest way, account for vehicle size and weight (takes more energy to move a big heavy vehicle than a smaller lighter one) and doesn't involve invading someones privacy on where and when they drive.
If you tow a trailer with something, the energy use goes up and the tax collected is more. If you base on vehicle position alone, you get the same tax loaded or empty, light or heavy.

 

[BillAinCT]

The weight of the EV is probably a wash on the tax. A heavier car will use use more kWh. Is it proportional? Maybe close enough to ignore weight and just base it on kWh. They could use mileage and pick a mi/kWh typical for the car and use mileage to estimate kWh to tax. But then like your trucking tax, it simply makes mileage as the easiest method to use.

 

[cthombor]

We do not have state income tax. This is to make up for gas tax of .21 cents a gallon charged per gallon by the state. I only drive the approximately 1100 miles per year, running errands, ect... so ev owners are being charged for 952 gallons of gas a year. Unfair taxation. I have combustion vehicles (3) and pay at the pump. Ev tax $200 plus $65. Hybrid tax $100 plus $65.

I reckon it's *always* possible to feel justified, when complaining about inequitable taxation!

I'd say that $200/yr, per registered vehicle, is a pretty low price to pay for the privilege of having a state-maintained roading network. But ... I have no idea what fraction of the roads in Tennessee are state-maintained! If you rarely drive on state-maintained roads, then ... I suppose you might hope for a future in which "big brother" is monitoring the roads on which you are driving, charging you per mile for this privilege, and then sloshing your per-mile dosh into whatever kitty (city, county, state, federal; for-profit toll-road operator) is most appropriate. Yikes -- that'd be scary IMHO. And really really complicated! I'm all in favour of keeping it simple when it comes to taxation -- because people will *always* complain about unfairness, no matter how the taxes are assessed!

You might be interested to know that New Zealand, where I now reside (I'm a dual NZ/US citizen), has recently enacted legislation charging EV owners $78/1000km. That's about USD $30 per 1000 miles. So I guess you'd like that scheme, since you drive your EV so little each year! (Good on you, by the way, as *every* mile in *any* vehicle has a non-trivial carbon-cost!) The owners of PHEVs in NZ are assessed $39/1000km, no matter whether they're being "fueled" mostly from the wall socket or mostly from petrol. Yeah it's unfair but what's the reasonable alternative -- aside from the "big brother" style of electronic monitoring... which I suppose you might be able to adequately sugar-coat for the anti-gummint crowd by putting a private for-profit firm in charge of collecting the revenue, as has been proposed here in NZ and I suspect elsewhere on this comment-thread!

The state of Victoria in Australia recently lost a constitutional challenge to the *very* unpopular $25/1000km road-user charge on EVs which started in 2021. https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/worlds-worst-ev-policy-scrapped-by-high-court/

Obviously: owners of vehicles that aren't driven very much in a year would greatly prefer to support the roads based on how much they drive.

Owners of vehicles that are driven much more than the fleet-average number of miles in a year would greatly prefer to pay yearly by the vehicle they register.

Owners who rarely (if ever) drive on state-maintained roads will scream bloody-murder at *any* charge.

Excise tax on fuels must be increased, as the fleet fuel-efficiency improves -- unless you vote in a government which promises it will build and maintain roads "faster cheaper and better".

Having poorly-maintained roads is also deeply unpopular.

Bottom line: people will complain about any taxation!

 

[bruceha2000]

The fairest is easiest is just odometer reading for EV. That's not intrusive. I don't need a meter on my home charger.

And a weight calculation. A Hummer EV will do a lot more damage than a little MiEV.
Of course it gets messy with a plug in hybrid, no way to know how many miles were electric and how many on gas where the fuel tax was paid.

 

[bruceha2000]

The owners of PHEVs in NZ are assessed $39/1000km, no matter whether they're being "fueled" mostly from the wall socket or mostly from petrol.

They charge PHEVs MORE when they are very likely paying road tax on fuel for some quantity, maybe a LOT, of the miles/kilometers they drive??

 

[cornbinder89]

I suppose you might hope for a future in which "big brother" is monitoring the roads on which you are driving, charging you per mile for this privilege, and then sloshing your per-mile dosh into whatever kitty (city, county, state, federal; for-profit toll-road operator) is most appropriate. Yikes -- that'd be scary IMHO. And really really complicated!

I think you mis understood me. It is the taxation bodies (state and Federal) that are pushing the GPS based taxation, not any of us. The Pandora's box that would open drivers in the US to is frighting.
For part of my working life, I made my living moving things over public roads, and know the need to fund them. For ICE vehicles, a fuel tax has been the method for around 100 years. It seams to me, the best way is to continue that method and translate it to the new "fuel source".
Politicians don't want to be on record for raising any tax rate, so often the fuel tax lags behind the inflation rate. It isn't the tax system that is at fault, but the political will to raise the fuel tax commiserate with the inflation rate. You can't tax at 1996 rate and repair roads in 2024 and have enough money to do so. The answer isn't to add a GPS tax and all that would be required to implement it, but to raise the tax rate to today's dollars worth.
The beauty of the fuel tax was it was almost self adjusting for vehicle size and weight, simple to admin, and did not require knowing where and when people drive.
Electrics will need to pay their share, it is coming. How that will be done is something we all need to think about. Just as many states have a yearly inspection (for safety or emissions) a yearly read on Kwh placed through the onboard charger would be a way to mimic the fuel tax. Bigger heavier vehicle would use more power and be taxed higher. Those that use the roads more would be taxed higher than those that only drive little. No vast bureaucracy would be needed to implement. Just a yearly read at the DMV or other site and a plate fee based on power usage.

 

[cornbinder89]

And a weight calculation. A Hummer EV will do a lot more damage than a little MiEV.
Of course it gets messy with a plug in hybrid, no way to know how many miles were electric and how many on gas where the fuel tax was paid.

I think the answer is to meter it at the onboard charger, that way gas used is taxed as a gas, and electric used is taxed as well. After all it is not the source of the electricity that is the issue, it is where it is being used. This means if you generated you own (off grid) the car use would still be taxed. You wouldn't need to know mileage on each fuel, or mileage at all, just fuel (of whatever type) put in the vehicle.
Weight is often already handled by plate type. Heavier vehicles pay more, there is a break point often between 6,000 lbs and 8,000 where weight starts being taxed via the plate.

 

[Banger]

Tire tax has a load more problems with it, what if you had a blow-out on a low mile tire? what about switching to snow tires for partial year use? those are just two that come of the top of my head right away.

Not to mention, if you live in a state where they put sales tax on everything (like we do in Tennessee), you're already paying taxes on your tires. You could add a "road use fee" similar to environmental or disposal fees already levied in some states when you dispose of an old tire(s), maybe. But even that is not ideal.

 

[cornbinder89]

Not to mention, if you live in a state where they put sales tax on everything (like we do in Tennessee), you're already paying taxes on your tires. You could add a "road use fee" similar to environmental or disposal fees already levied in some states when you dispose of an old tire(s), maybe. But even that is not ideal.

Not to mention you have to pay the lifetime of the tires worth of road tax at the time of purchase, get totalled leaving the tire dealer, and that money is gone. It would make an already expensive purchase prohibitively so. Buy a set of tires and sell the car before they are worn out and it will be hard to recover the tax paid, and the new owner will be running on you dime.

 

[Yodrak]

...
Kwh used to charge would be the fairest way, account for vehicle size and weight (takes more energy to move a big heavy vehicle than a smaller lighter one) and doesn't involve invading someones privacy on where and when they drive.
...

Yes, but how to collect the data? Every car would need to be monitored to submit the data by some entity that would report the data. I suppose the owner could be the responsible entity and would report the data when renewing the registration, as with the idea of having the tax based on mileage. But, EVs (and PHEVs and hybrids) don't have a non-resettable and easily displayed total charge indicator comparable to the odometer. Trying to collect the information from the myriad sources of charge would be an unworkable nightmare.

 

[Yodrak]

I think the answer is to meter it at the onboard charger, that way gas used is taxed as a gas, and electric used is taxed as well. After all it is not the source of the electricity that is the issue, it is where it is being used. This means if you generated you own (off grid) the car use would still be taxed. You wouldn't need to know mileage on each fuel, or mileage at all, just fuel (of whatever type) put in the vehicle.
...

I agree with this in theory, but as a practical matter it would be difficult to implement retroactively. The manufacturers would have to provide the onboard metering by some deadline, and existing EVs, PHEVs, and hybrids would have to be retrofitted with the retrofits designed and installed at someone's expense by that same deadline.

Taxing by mileage may be less 'fair', but also much simpler and less expensive to implement. But still more difficult and expensive to implement, for the states (and the feds?), than the present system of the states simply charging an additional fee. Which is why the present system isn't going to change any time soon.

 

[cornbinder89]

Your points are valid, but the solution being pushed by the taxing entities is GPS taxing for everyone, so be careful what you are saying is unworkable. The BMS already records the number of charges by type, it shouldn't be to hard to record Kwh. Like any emissions change, it can be required on new vehicles and after a small number of years almost all will be covered. Older "Grandfathered" vehicles could remain on a flat yearly tax until they are scrapped.
Right now, taxing via plate cost, while the least fair, is the most workable. I think as EV's mature, the taxing entities are going to look for more aggressive ways to tax. Mileage tax still require some auditing in one form or another.
What I hope no sane person should want to see is a GPS based tax system, There have numerous proposals that so far haven't made it far in the legislative districts where they are being proposed, but don't be too complacent, it is most definitely the way they want to proceed.
As EV's hold a bigger segment of the total vehicles on the road, the issue will become more of a priority in state houses and at a the federal level.
Once GPS taxing becomes part of the taxing structure around vehicles, time and location "surcharges" are just a computer code away.
I think the EV community would be well served if they are aware of what is being proposed and actively contacting their reps to express their disdain for such laws.
I expect they will try and sell it as being "more fair", don't believe it.
As far as collection of the data, like many states do for emissions testing, it can be done by local entities either public or private as part of the registration renewal. Calif already does this, no smog insp, no plate.

 

[cornbinder89]

In case you think me in the tinfoil hat crowd:
https://www.motor1.com/news/678659/utah-road-usage-tax-by-mile-pilot-program/
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AQFnoECBoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2pXIV4jNQrtZeL_nBTgxti

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AQFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2xjUgLwNgBb5bqygrojpe1
And in case you think it is just states, here is a link about the fed's getting involved.
https://fortune.com/2023/06/27/gas-...el-efficiency-evs-states-tracking-road-usage/