Quick Charging comes to Southern California

[TRONZ]

Interesting. I charged for over two hours (L2) yesterday and the Mitsu staff was very welcoming. A gentleman by the name of Joe even came down and plugged us in. He explained that the L3 was down because of a crack in the handle (damaged in shipping). A new part is due on Monday. We talked about their beautiful solar array and I thanked him repeatedly for making the EVSE unit available. I was also eager to see the (larger) American version of the i-MiEV which they had parked side by side with the smaller Japanese version. Nice little ride at a great price.

I agree that flooding Mitsu HQ with LEAFs could backfire, but I got a strong sense we were playing on the same team.

 

[Boomer23]

Interesting. I charged for over two hours (L2) yesterday and the Mitsu staff was very welcoming. A gentleman by the name of Joe even came down and plugged us in. He explained that the L3 was down because of a crack in the handle (damaged in shipping). A new part is due on Monday. We talked about their beautiful solar array and I thanked him repeatedly for making the EVSE unit available. I was also eager to see the (larger) American version of the i-MiEV which they had parked side by side with the smaller Japanese version. Nice little ride at a great price.

I agree that flooding Mitsu HQ with LEAFs could backfire, but I got a strong sense we were playing on the same team.

Ahhh, you were the silver LEAF that I saw parked there. You didn't see me pull in, talk to someone for a while and pull out?

You must have been relaxing in the luxurious first class lounge, while I was getting the quick exit, huh? Why do I always feel like I'm living in a different world than everyone else??? :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[hill]

It's not just about the cost to purchase and install a DC Fast Charge unit, which is definitely a chunk of change. I think many people are going to be very surprised when they see what the cost of a charge will be at some of these DC Fast Charger sites, given the various commercial utility rates, potential demand charges, and the host(s) desire to make it self-supporting or even turn a profit...

Good point. That got me thinking. Here's some quick calculations with many assumptions made...

Cost of charger, site, installation, etc.: $50,000
Investors at $500/ea: 100
80% charge of a Nissan LEAF: 20kWh (actually 19.2kWh but assuming some overhead)
Average vehicles/day: 6
Average electricity sold per day: 120kWh
Average electricity sold per year: 43,800kWh

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . snip

Food for thought.

That's a great data outlay hypo devin ... however;
- 90kWh used would be more likely per 6 Leafs. Remember - folks don't show up in turtle mode . . . rather they're typically down to 20%-25%. Then you only fill to 80% for high speed re-fill. So even allowing for 5% charge losses, the numbers seem lower.
- Next, many areas (states / counties / cities) 'sponsor' chargers. I don't know what the state of the funds are now for CA - but our EVSE was basically 50% paid for (tax credit in our case) by agencies hoping to sponsor folks off gasoline.
But your scenario still makes the idea promising, whether or not the values are a little high or low.

 

[Devin]

It's not just about the cost to purchase and install a DC Fast Charge unit, which is definitely a chunk of change. I think many people are going to be very surprised when they see what the cost of a charge will be at some of these DC Fast Charger sites, given the various commercial utility rates, potential demand charges, and the host(s) desire to make it self-supporting or even turn a profit...

Good point. That got me thinking. Here's some quick calculations with many assumptions made...

Cost of charger, site, installation, etc.: $50,000
Investors at $500/ea: 100
80% charge of a Nissan LEAF: 20kWh (actually 19.2kWh but assuming some overhead)
Average vehicles/day: 6
Average electricity sold per day: 120kWh
Average electricity sold per year: 43,800kWh

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . snip

Food for thought.

That's a great data outlay hypo devin ... however;
- 90kWh used would be more likely per 6 Leafs. Remember - folks don't show up in turtle mode . . . rather they're typically down to 20%-25%. Then you only fill to 80% for high speed re-fill. So even allowing for 5% charge losses, the numbers seem lower.
- Next, many areas (states / counties / cities) 'sponsor' chargers. I don't know what the state of the funds are now for CA - but our EVSE was basically 50% paid for (tax credit in our case) by agencies hoping to sponsor folks off gasoline.
But your scenario still makes the idea promising, whether or not the values are a little high or low.

Thanks! I started making a simple calculation in my head then went on a tangent. You know how these things are! But yes, you are correct about most not showing up in turtle mode. That said, it is likely balanced out by the charging overhead. I would imagine dumping all that electricity into the pack that quickly probably involves a greater efficiency loss than one might expect with L2 or L1 charging. By how much I'm not sure, and a quick Googling didn't turn up any decent answers.

Ultimately I would hope that in the future more than 6 cars per day would show up and use the charger but I didn't want to go too high on that figure. I came to 6 because I figured on 2 regulars in the morning commute, 2 regulars in the evening commute (different from the morning commuters), and 2 randoms in the middle of the day. Also, I can actually see more Mitsubishi i owners requiring L3 than LEAF owners in the long run due to the lower range and lower cost of the i. By offering L3 at a price that is still very competitive with both gasoline and CNG it would make EVs attractive for those who would need to rely on L3 charging to make their entire commute and would otherwise not purchase an electric car.

 

[Randy]

That's a good start to try and figure out the costs...Don't forget the Demand charges for commercial customers...

Here is a good tutorial from the Center for Sustainable Energy...

https://energycenter.org/index.php/incentive-programs/self-generation-incentive-program/sgip-documents/doc_download/560-understanding-non-residential-utility-rates

See page 12 for info about demand charges...Page 26-32 give some examples that show demand charges can be from 24% to 36% of the total typical commercial bill. Of course, it depends on the type of business and load, etc. But adding a DC Fast Charger will add quite a few kw to the demand of the facility, hence raising the demand charge on their bill...

Of course, the convenience to charge that fast will be great, but I think the cost to get that fast charge will be high...

If some municipalities or other agencies step up to host a DC Fast Charge setup and pay the charges, that would be great. But I wouldn't expect that to happen at a privately owned facility...

 

[walterbays]

That's a good start to try and figure out the costs...Don't forget the Demand charges for commercial customers...

It's an interesting situation. With fast chargers SDG&E could probably significantly shift total electricity usage from peak to super off-peak by encouraging more peak usage of electricity in L3 charging stations. Why?

First, an abundance of reasonably priced L3 charging would remove range anxiety as an issue for most people, enabling a much greater population of EV's, encouraging much more overnight super off-peak charging, so SDG&E gets a flatter demand curve which they want from EV's.

Second, today when EV drivers are making a second long trip of the day they may often top off the battery in peak before setting out, just in case the extra range is needed. They'll have little chance to top off during the trip, and the relatively long wait for L2 is unlikely to be as convenient away from home as at home before they go. But if they're assured an L3 station will be available and affordable, just in case the extra range is needed, then they won't need to charge in peak before they go. What's more, most likely they will not need to charge in peak at the L3 station either. So long as the L3 station is more expensive and/or less convenient than super off-peak charging at home, they will not take the extra charging unless they really need it. Result: a higher percentage of super off-peak charging, enabled by the potential for quick peak charging only if necessary.

I don't know whether SDG&E would see it this way, nor whether this is one of the theories that the EV Project intends to test. And I'm sure that SDG&E could not change rates without thorough review by the PUC. But wouldn't it be nice if they ended up offering preferential rates to L3 charging stations?

 

[JPVLeaf]

Are there any updates on the rumored DC quick charging at Connell Nissan in Costa Mesa?

 

[garygid]

I stopped by Connell Nissan last Saturday and thanked them for being pro-active in the EV Revolution ... like in making their THREE EVSEs available to all, and 24/7. I asked how their QC station project was coming along, and ... apparently it is still in some stage of planning.

Most/Many dealers are short of parking, and "chargers" (charging stations) require some parking, and some waiting.

 

[hill]

. . . . . . . . . . .snip
Thanks! I started making a simple calculation in my head then went on a tangent. You know how these things are! But yes, you are correct about most not showing up in turtle mode. That said, it is likely balanced out by the charging overhead. I would imagine dumping all that electricity into the pack that quickly probably involves a greater efficiency loss than one might expect with L2 or L1 charging. By how much I'm not sure, and a quick Googling didn't turn up any decent answers ......snip

According to one source (who happens to be close to a Japanese EV insider/manufacturer), there is evidence that short duration / quick charging the mid capacity of a traction battery may actually extend the pack's useable life . . . at least that's been the preliminary experience of one particular manufacturer. Could that be because short times mean less temperature rise? I'm hoping to find out more ...

.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

. . . . . . . . . . .snip
Thanks! I started making a simple calculation in my head then went on a tangent. You know how these things are! But yes, you are correct about most not showing up in turtle mode. That said, it is likely balanced out by the charging overhead. I would imagine dumping all that electricity into the pack that quickly probably involves a greater efficiency loss than one might expect with L2 or L1 charging. By how much I'm not sure, and a quick Googling didn't turn up any decent answers ......snip

According to one source (who happens to be close to a Japanese EV insider/manufacturer), there is evidence that short duration / quick charging the mid capacity of a traction battery may actually extend the pack's useable life . . . at least that's been the preliminary experience of one particular manufacturer. Could that be because short times mean less temperature rise? I'm hoping to find out more ...

.

which is basically what a Prius does all day long

 

[GeorgeParrott]

I think I saw something somewhere about was it Nissan or ??? working on fast charge stations that would use the recycled battery packs from EVs that has lost vehicle power supply efficiency but could still be used as STORAGE UNITS at charging stations...Hence REDUCING the demand load and actually storing power from solar panels on such stations for quick transfer to vehicles in need....

 

[mwalsh]

I think I saw something somewhere about was it Nissan or ??? working on fast charge stations that would use the recycled battery packs from EVs that has lost vehicle power supply efficiency but could still be used as STORAGE UNITS at charging stations...Hence REDUCING the demand load and actually storing power from solar panels on such stations for quick transfer to vehicles in need....

It was Nissan. The system uses 4 recycled LEAF battery packs.

 

[Deleted member 770]

Has anybody asked Mitsubishi what the hours of availability of their EVSEs will be? I'm hoping for 24x7, as the charges I'll need are for my daughter's (Sat./Sun.) volleyball tournaments in Anaheim (ASC), about 7 miles down the road.

If not, could somebody please ask the next time you stop by?

Thanks in advance!

 

[garygid]

BEFORE we pester them on exact hours, we should WAIT
to see in they will ALLOW any LEAFs to charge there at all.

 

[mwalsh]

BEFORE we pester them on exact hours, we should WAIT
to see in they will ALLOW any LEAFs to charge there at all.

Between boomer and I, we now have a pretty good relationship going with David Patterson, a Chief Engineer at Mitsubishi R&D. He's promised to let us know when the L3 is available, and he's so enthusiastic about getting it going, I'm sure it won't slip his mind.

 

[DaveEV]

According to one source (who happens to be close to a Japanese EV insider/manufacturer), there is evidence that short duration / quick charging the mid capacity of a traction battery may actually extend the pack's useable life . . . at least that's been the preliminary experience of one particular manufacturer. Could that be because short times mean less temperature rise? I'm hoping to find out more ...

IIRC, I believe it was stated that frequent quick charging to 80% was less harmful to their batteries than less frequent charges to 100%...

This may or may not only apply to the specific batteries tested - Toshiba SCiB batteries, which handle large currents very well, I believe.

 

[mwalsh]

Officially official....the DC quick charger is now available at Mitsubishi's headquarters!

Only during business hours (8-5 / M-F) for now, as we'd expected, but since they have 24 hour security they're trying to work it out so that it's available 24/7.

 

[z0ner]

Officially official....the DC quick charger is now available at Mitsubishi's headquarters!

Only during business hours for now, as we'd expected, but since they have 24 hour security they're trying to work it out so that it's available 24/7. In my excitement, I did actually forget to ask what normal business hours were, but I've sent another email to try and get clarification. My bad.

I am officially raining down virtual balloons and confetti!!!

I was there near the close of business hours last Friday, treading very carefully. I even parked my car on the street.

 

[Herm]

You guys should form a Mitsubishi/Nissan appreciation society, and present Mitsubishi with a plaque thanking them for the L3 charger along with some free publicity.

 

[mwalsh]

Officially official post updated to show Mitsubishi's office hours (which are 8-5 / M-F).