Public chargers hourly charge

[Fabio]

My company is planning to install some L2 for employee charging. The guy in charge of the project told me that they are planning to charge FIVE DOLLARS per Hour -- he claims that is the operational neutral price (i.e. not recouping initial capital expenses).
Obviously this price is outrageously high (my e9 rate comes at about 19c/hours when I charge my LEAF) and the chargers will end up collecting dust and generating hate against EVs (for taking up parking spaces).
So I'm curious at what prices public charges are planning to charge.
My only experience with a public L2 is downtown San Jose, near Amici's restaurant -- but currently it's free (and the restaurant validates for parking).
Does anyone know what prices are, possibly in CA?

 

[garygid]

Heard of 0$, 0$ and free parking (normally paid parking), and 5$ per hour (not heard of any users), or just parking rates that vary considerably: 1st 2 hrs free, $1 per 30 minutes after that, and many others.

Is he installing an EVSE, or just a 120v or 240v socket?
Must be a "smart" EVSE if they will charge by the hour.

I wonder how long it will take him to "break even" when there are NO users, or even 2 hours a week?

 

[Fabio]

I work for a very large company, and they are planning to install 5 EVSE (we have over 20 campuses).
The 5$/hour is (allegedly) to only cover operating expenses (no break even on the initial capital).

Heard of 0$, 0$ and free parking (normally paid parking), and 5$ per hour (not heard of any users), or just parking rates that vary considerably: 1st 2 hrs free, $1 per 30 minutes after that, and many others.

Is he installing an EVSE, or just a 120v or 240v socket?
Must be a "smart" EVSE if they will charge by the hour.

I wonder how long it will take him to "break even" when there are NO users, or even 2 hours a week?

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

I'd ask for an itemized breakdown of that $5.

Explain that the hourly consumption depends on the charger in the car, which is limited to 3.3kW, so 3.3kWh per hour. A better car could draw up to 7. That still doesn't explain $5.

They must be figuring in the area cost of the parking space as well, maybe maintenance on the plant, or even amortized charger/installation cost.

Now, if regular parking (meter) already charges $5/hr (not atypical), then that's not unfair.

 

[trentr]

My only experience with a public L2 is downtown San Jose, near Amici's restaurant -- but currently it's free (and the restaurant validates for parking).

Is the charger in the garage next to Amici's?

 

[nader]

I work for a developer and we are having the same issue. On a current project we are trying to get the chargers on a separate meter so we can use E9b. The peak rates arent much higher than commercial rates but off peak is much cheaper. The fact is that commercial smart chargers are expensive. We are in the neighborhood of $8k per charger installed and this is with new construction. It would be more if we had to saw cut concrete, etc. We're not trying to make money on it, just cover operating costs. I havent had seen how the Charge Point system interface works so I'm not sure what options are available for setting rates. For example, can I charge 10% over the cost of electricity? What happens if monthly consumption bumps the rate to higher tiers? I requested more info but never heard back. Is there anaother system out there aside from Coulomb? After seeing the GE Watt Station the boss wants a nice looking unit too. Coloumbs are kinda vanilla.

 

[KeiJidosha]

Does anyone know what prices are, possibly in CA?

Many (most) of the coulomb stations are still free, but you have to pay any parking charge. I have seen coulomb charge rates of $0.95 per hour and $5.00 per hour. With the 3.3kW charger in the LEAF, you would be paying $0.30 to ~$1.50 kWh. Rate would be half with a 6.6kW charger. Depending on utility and location, I have heard utility prices as high as $0.57 per kWh during peak period, when opportunity charging is likely to occur. Coulomb can also charge a fixed price per connection, or time of day based rates.

If the chargers remain empty, it is easy to adjust rates to modulate demand

 

[walterbays]

I bet the biggest cost component of a public charger (other than DC quick charge) is the parking space; second is the EVSE and installation; and a distant third is the electricity. At 3.3 kW power draw and California's average 20 cent/kWh commercial rate that's $0.66/hr. As for the parking space, if all employees pay for parking (as I think some Bay Area cities require) then EV drivers should pay the same. Otherwise $5/hr sounds excessive - equivalent to about $13/gallon gasoline (at 4 mi/kWh and 35 MPG).

For emergency use $5/hr sounds pretty good compared to a tow, even a free tow. But you probably aren't contemplating putting in chargers to sit around empty nearly all the time, for use only in emergencies.

There's another circumstance where I'd be inclined to pay something like $5/hr or $10/day. That's if the money went into a separate fund to first pay the electricity bill, then to pay off the EVSE installation, and then to fund additional EVSE's. Better yet, instead of spending all the money on $2-3k L2 EVSE's, set aside part of it to buy many more plain old outdoor 120VAC electrical outlets for something like $50 each, which is all most people would need most of the time. Best of all, make those outlets both 120VAC and 240VAC. Future EV's and LEAFs with aftermarket portable EVSE's could charge almost as quickly as at one of the expensive EVSE stations. Since outdoor electrical outlets lack smart card readers, I suggest a lower tech billing system: a cardboard box with a slot in it at the reception desk.

 

[LEAFer]

I don't really have any direct experience via which I could relate hard data ... but I have heard that commercial/business utility customers could be paying *MUCH* higher rates than what we have been talking about here for residential rates. This may included the dreaded "demand charge" that could be imposed on businesses for kw demand above a certain cutoff. Such a cutoff can easily be exceeded with just a few stations during day time. And such excess may cause fees which survive a short duration (i.e. place *ALL* of their kWh use into a higher tier).

Again, sorry for the "non-specificness" here ... but maybe we should educate ourselves on business rate structures before so quickly dismissing the issue of electricity cost for such locations.

Does anyone have hard data or experience ... to add to this discussion ?

 

[walterbays]

Does anyone have hard data or experience ... to add to this discussion ?

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_b.html
Of course what matters most isn't these average rates but the rate that the particular business in question will pay.

 

[vijayl]

Fabio, I think we work for the same company.. I don't think anyone wud charge at $5/hr. May be we can work together to influence.. which Bldg do u work in?

 

[LEAFer]

Ok ... so at least for a start ... I selected a few links found from a google search on Demand Charge, and all I can say (after a cursory look) is ... OUCH!

http://www.nationalgridus.com/niagaramohawk/non_html/eff_elec-demand.pdf
http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/htmlpubs/htm00712373/index.htm
http://www.firstenergycorp.com/Residential_and_Business/Customer_Choice/New_Jersey/Small_Business_-_Demand_Charges.html
http://www.pacificpower.net/bus/ayu/uyec.html

(In the fourth link, click on the "What is a demand charge" to see the details.)

 

[KeiJidosha]

I don't really have any direct experience via which I could relate hard data ... but I have heard that commercial/business utility customers could be paying *MUCH* higher rates than what we have been talking about here for residential rates. This may included the dreaded "demand charge" that could be imposed on businesses for kw demand above a certain cutoff. Such a cutoff can easily be exceeded with just a few stations during day time. And such excess may cause fees which survive a short duration (i.e. place *ALL* of their kWh use into a higher tier).

Again, sorry for the "non-specificness" here ... but maybe we should educate ourselves on business rate structures before so quickly dismissing the issue of electricity cost for such locations.

Does anyone have hard data or experience ... to add to this discussion ?

An SCE customer with a 35kW maximum demand (average over a 15 minute sample) paid ~$10/kW or ~ $350/mo demand charge. So if a linear scale (50kW paid ~$9.50/kW or $475/mo), add $9.50/month per kW peak. or $31/month for each additional 3.3kW charger running during peak load. So ~$1.00/day standing cost per charger. Double for 6.6kW charge.

 

[DarkStar]

In Downtown Portland, all charging has been free, but you still have to pay for parking ($1.60/hour). One advantage electric vehicles do have though is that they are not subject to the maximum duration. For example, at a 90 minute maximum meter, I can press the electric vehicle button and pay for 4 hours of parking if I want to (only available while plugged in however).

The parking garages that have charging stations are the same, it's free to charge with the regular paid parking.

 

[Fabio]

Yes, the one right next to the restaurant (where Amici validates parking)

My only experience with a public L2 is downtown San Jose, near Amici's restaurant -- but currently it's free (and the restaurant validates for parking).

Is the charger in the garage next to Amici's?

 

[Fabio]

The claim is that 5$/hour only covers operation cost -- not amortization of charger/installation.

I'd ask for an itemized breakdown of that $5.

Explain that the hourly consumption depends on the charger in the car, which is limited to 3.3kW, so 3.3kWh per hour. A better car could draw up to 7. That still doesn't explain $5.

They must be figuring in the area cost of the parking space as well, maybe maintenance on the plant, or even amortized charger/installation cost.

Now, if regular parking (meter) already charges $5/hr (not atypical), then that's not unfair.

 

[garygid]

Assuming about 37 mpg and about 75 miles
on the LEAF (thus, a 2 gallon equivalent):

$5 per hour (about $40 to fill) is about $20 per gallon of gasoline.

$3 per hour ($24 total) = $12 per gallon

$2 /hr ($16 total) = $8 /gal

$1 /hr ($8 total) = $4 /gal

$0.50 /hr ($4 total) = $2 / gal

Of course it is worse if you drive a 50 mpg Prius, and better if you get more than 75 miles wirh the LEAF per full charge.

 

[garygid]

A business using 9,500 watts peak, maybe 8,000 watts average daytime, that MIGHT have a "demand" penalty at the 10,000 watt point (a $100,000 penalty) SHOULD have some sort of load monitoring and load-shedding in place, right?

But, at 10¢ per kWh, 30 days, 8000 watts for 10 hours a day = only $24,000 per month electrical bill.

Thus, the "penalty" (in this made-up exanple) could be equivalent to 4 months of electricity (or a 5-times rate), a BIG hit.

So, what do companies typically do to avoid the "demand" penalty?

 

[Luft]

The claim is that 5$/hour only covers operation cost -- not amortization of charger/installation.

I'd ask for an itemized breakdown of that $5.

Explain that the hourly consumption depends on the charger in the car, which is limited to 3.3kW, so 3.3kWh per hour. A better car could draw up to 7. That still doesn't explain $5.

They must be figuring in the area cost of the parking space as well, maybe maintenance on the plant, or even amortized charger/installation cost.

Now, if regular parking (meter) already charges $5/hr (not atypical), then that's not unfair.

Well unless someone is being paid to stay there and watch the charging stations that's NOT a "break even" scenario.

Like other's have said, if it's a parking lot and the $5.00 per hour includes parking then okay but if I and running low on charge I will not likely have a warm and fuzzy feeling about paying $5.00 for every 12 miles of distance I can travel.

 

[BnBinSD]

A business using 9,500 watts peak, maybe 8,000 watts average daytime, that MIGHT have a "demand" penalty at the 10,000 watt point (a $100,000 penalty) SHOULD have some sort of load monitoring and load-shedding in place, right?

But, at 10¢ per kWh, 30 days, 8000 watts for 10 hours a day = only $24,000 per month electrical bill.

Thus, the "penalty" (in this made-up exanple) could be equivalent to 4 months of electricity (or a 5-times rate), a BIG hit.

So, what do companies typically do to avoid the "demand" penalty?

Hmm, sounds like a business case to install solar PV!