Phoenix Range Test Sept 15, 2012 planning!

[mark1313]

Did anyone report whats going on Saturday to Ch.5 news(KPHO) ? They may find this interesting enough to do another news story on the Leaf...
I sure hope someone does a video on this and post it on U-Tube..Im sure all of the electric car community would find this very informative and interesting..

Tony im not sure if there is any kind of green-car awards that go out to people who have gone the extra mile in proving something important for the E-car community ,but my jaw is dropping in the effort you are putting into this ...

 

[kolmstead]

Very impressive plan, Tony! One caution: Check out the car dollies before you rent them. I attempted to use one from U.S. Rental in January to tow my LEAF to the dealer for the battery check. I didn't notice that it had two metal brackets sticking up, presumably for strap attachment. When I drove up on the dolly, those brackets wound up embedded in the soft plastic chin of my car. Two gashes, right through the fascia.

That's why I tried to drive the 83 miles to the dealer. Didn't make it either way. Two turtles in two days.

-Karl

 

[garygid]

If real CAPACITY is lost, the cell and Pack voltages would be the same.
Edit: not Pack = cell, but reduced capacity values are equal to new
Capacity values.

 

[palmermd]

If real CAPACITY is lost, the cell and Pack voltages would be the same.

Something wrong with this statement...cell voltage is in the 3.7v range and pack voltage is in the 355 volt range. And did you post in the wrong thread....seems out of place here.

 

[TonyWilliams]

If real CAPACITY is lost, the cell and Pack voltages would be the same.

Something wrong with this statement...cell voltage is in the 3.7v range and pack voltage is in the 355 volt range. And did you post in the wrong thread....seems out of place here.

I think Gary's statement is exactly right. Every one of these cars are going to have something very close to 393.5v / 4.1v when fully charged. And everyone will be somewhere below 300v / 3.0v range when in Turtle mode. Yet, each will have significantly varying capacity to propel the LEAF.

 

[opossum]

Mark, Heather Moore from KPHO CBS 5 (the one who did the first 2 stories) is aware of what is happening this Saturday. I gave her a summary of what has happened (or not happened) since her last story and our cars went to Casa Grande. She has also poked around on this forum. She says she is interested in doing another story. I just don't know if she plans to get video of the event.

 

[palmermd]

If real CAPACITY is lost, the cell and Pack voltages would be the same.

Something wrong with this statement...cell voltage is in the 3.7v range and pack voltage is in the 355 volt range. And did you post in the wrong thread....seems out of place here.

I think Gary's statement is exactly right. Every one of these cars are going to have something very close to 393.5v / 4.1v when fully charged. And everyone will be somewhere below 300v / 3.0v range when in Turtle mode. Yet, each will have significantly varying capacity to propel the LEAF.

now I understand. I thought he meant they would be equal (3.7 != 355). He means that they are the same value whether or not there has been any capacity lost. I agree.

 

[myleaf]

There are two L2s at PADT

I would prefer all cars meet me at PADT, except those few being towed in that morning. I do not wish to try moving cars early in the morning. If all the cars are driven to the PADT site with as much juice you can put in the car, then the combination of DC charge and top off with L2 will work for each one. I, and whoever shows up to help Friday, will juggle the car.

Again, if I told you different, now I prefer the cars be at PADT

Oh, okay. I thought we were trying to avoid the pretest QC due to battery temperature concerns, and have all the cars end an L2 100% charge around 4am; but yes towing 10 cars in the middle of the night would be awful.

The Blink app lists 2 QC charge ports at PADT, which is really just one QC since you can't charge two cars simultaneously, and only one L2.

However, I think there are actually two L2's at PADT. Do any locals know for sure how many L2's are there?

If you have a couple of those splitters, I think four LEAF's can charge on the Blinks. I can also bring my two upgraded EVSE's in case the building has some extra outlets, too.

What time on Friday? I have some dinner plans around 6pm that I can't miss.

Oh, we should have some clipboards to record checklist items and data. I have four from work I can bring.

 

[palmermd]

Ok, guys, you need to go through this with a fine tooth comb and think outside the box. I'm in the final throws of planning.

One more thought. The car uses open circuit voltage (OCV) to determine the state of charge (SOC). But once in motion the car no longer has access to a good OCV value to determine SOC, so it uses coulomb counting (CC) to calculate the SOC. I believe it does look at voltages once in a while to make some adjustments to the SOC, but this is difficult to do correctly so it mostly relies on CC. Given that this test is run at 62mph and the car will not have access to a low current draw voltage verification like you might get at a traffic light, it has to rely on CC and crude voltage verification at the relatively high current draws of 62mph. If the car computer (Mr. Palmers software) makes conservative calculations at these speeds it might assume the SOC is lower than it really is. So you drive the car until it decides to turtle and then you come to a stop. Per your procedure:

1. Once safely WELL off the highway and stopped, cruise control OFF, four way warning blinkers ON, record stop time using center NAV display time only
Time __________________

2. Enter final resting location GPS coordinates
Lat/Long - N_________________W_________________ GPS position is found at: Press "MENU", then "Info", then "GPS Position" -or- "Where am I?"

3. Uncover instrument panel, record trip length, and miles/kWh from dash
Odometer Trip miles _________________________
Miles/kWh from dash _________________________
Fuel bars observed (should be zero) _____________
Battery capacity bars _________________________
Battery temperature bars (should be six) _________

4. Record ending Gidmeter voltage and record Gid %
Voltage ___________
Gid % ___________

5. Turn car off, make arrangements for tow back to a charging station

May I suggest 5.5 be to leave the car off for 5 minutes. This will allow for the car to calculate the OCV and re-adjust the SOC calculation based on this new information. Turn the car back on and then record items listed in (4) again [voltage and Gid]. I suspect they will be the same, and will not be adjusted higher, but this additional step will eliminate any question about the OCV at the end of the test. In fact mine seems to always adjust downward if I stop the car after a freeway run and then turn it back on. But better to record and have this information then to not have it and then have Nissan question the results later.

6. Return this completed list to administrator at "PDAT", 7755 South Research Drive, Tempe, AZ
7. Charge car for 10 minutes at DC charger
8. Eat breakfast with the gang at 9am-ish
9. Make appointment with Nissan dealer for battery check

 

[vegastar]

That is an interesting sugestion. In my car the OCV is achieved in 20-30 minutes (after 30 minutes there is no further variation of the voltage).

 

[surfingslovak]

That is an interesting sugestion. In my car the OCV is achieved in 20-30 minutes (after 30 minutes there is no further variation of the voltage).

Yes, that's about the only relevant suggestion out of the great voltage debate. I was going to ask if 5 minutes wait were really necessary, but you seem to suggest that even more is needed? What was the variation you saw? Was it more than 0.5V on the pack level or does the Gid meter offer better resolution than that?

 

[mwalsh]

May I suggest 5.5 be to leave the car off for 5 minutes. This will allow for the car to calculate the OCV and re-adjust the SOC calculation based on this new information. Turn the car back on and then record items listed in (4) again [voltage and Gid]. I suspect they will be the same, and will not be adjusted higher, but this additional step will eliminate any question about the OCV at the end of the test. In fact mine seems to always adjust downward if I stop the car after a freeway run and then turn it back on. But better to record and have this information then to not have it and then have Nissan question the results later.

On days when I record "anomalous SOC readings" to my spreadsheet it is no uncommon for me to "recover" 2-3% SOC after leaving the car sit for a while. How long? I'm not sure. But it's not instantaneous - I do have to come back to the car sometime later to note my mid-point readings. I can't just turn it off and turn it back on again to see this change.

 

[palmermd]

so somewhere between 5 and 30 minutes? I'll let those conducting the test decide how long they want to wait.

 

[spooka]

Looks good.

Are each of the drivers to make and tape their own signage for the windows?

I will bring 3 bottles of "Glass Chalk" for writing on our rear hatch glass. No signs to tape/fall off. If you have ever looked at a windshield at a car dealership, you know what this stuff is/looks like. Use this if you like. Scrapes off easily with a razor blade.

 

[LEAFer]

I like the idea of having each driver bring ballast. I'll bring all the free weights I have and other random heavy things (cinder blocks, cats, etc.). That should help.

Great planning job ... but you guys need a (short) (off-topic?) break

Why bring all that ballast STUFF ... when all you might need is ONE of these: http://imgur.com/gallery/03vl0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[opossum]

so somewhere between 5 and 30 minutes? I'll let those conducting the test decide how long they want to wait.

I could go either way on this. I have spent some pretty hot, sweaty afternoons next to my Leaf, waiting for it to charge, so killing 30 minutes early Saturday morning would be no big deal. But the devil's advocate would say that the typical owner should not have to stop and wait half an hour, only to have the car recalculate and give you one or two more miles, at most.

 

[palmermd]

so somewhere between 5 and 30 minutes? I'll let those conducting the test decide how long they want to wait.

I could go either way on this. I have spent some pretty hot, sweaty afternoons next to my Leaf, waiting for it to charge, so killing 30 minutes early Saturday morning would be no big deal. But the devil's advocate would say that the typical owner should not have to stop and wait half an hour, only to have the car recalculate and give you one or two more miles, at most.

I'm not suggesting that this is something anyone should do on a regular basis. You guys are running an experiment and this extra step will insure nobody can come back and suggest you did not use all the available capacity because of the way the test was run. If you don't do it they can question the results and the test will be for naught. If you do this extra step there are two possibilities. One is that the soc does not change and the second is that it does. Either one is good for the cause. The first is obviously good as you can show that you did use it all. The second is good because you will document just how much a difference you had at the end. Knowing this difference is good for the cause as well. Not knowing would be a mistake. If you gain two miles at the end you can still say the car had only x range and not x+2 because the car stopped you and like you said it is not reasonable for an owner to have to wait a half an hour to gain access to another 2 miles.

 

[jspearman]

I really appreciate all the effort going into this, and I'm sorry I can't participate. Will come by as show of solidarity, though, and would be happy to bring anything along that might be helpful.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Yes, and if we get the cars there by late afternoon / evening Friday, then Quick Charge them to at least 80-90%, then we can top off each one through the night on L2. If we can't get that done, we can then tow from the site to another nearby charger.

I intend to bring a splitter to charge two LEAFs off one Blink. If somebody else has that, we can charge 5 cars at once at PDAT.

The best strategy is to drive your LEAF to PDAT with the absolute most charge you can.

There are two L2s at PADT

I would prefer all cars meet me at PADT, except those few being towed in that morning. I do not wish to try moving cars early in the morning. If all the cars are driven to the PADT site with as much juice you can put in the car, then the combination of DC charge and top off with L2 will work for each one. I, and whoever shows up to help Friday, will juggle the car.

Again, if I told you different, now I prefer the cars be at PADT

Oh, okay. I thought we were trying to avoid the pretest QC due to battery temperature concerns, and have all the cars end an L2 100% charge around 4am; but yes towing 10 cars in the middle of the night would be awful.

The Blink app lists 2 QC charge ports at PADT, which is really just one QC since you can't charge two cars simultaneously, and only one L2.

However, I think there are actually two L2's at PADT. Do any locals know for sure how many L2's are there?

If you have a couple of those splitters, I think four LEAF's can charge on the Blinks. I can also bring my two upgraded EVSE's in case the building has some extra outlets, too.

What time on Friday? I have some dinner plans around 6pm that I can't miss.

Oh, we should have some clipboards to record checklist items and data. I have four from work I can bring.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I like the idea of having each driver bring ballast. I'll bring all the free weights I have and other random heavy things (cinder blocks, cats, etc.). That should help.

Great planning job ... but you guys need a (short) (off-topic?) break

Why bring all that ballast STUFF ... when all you might need is ONE of these: http://imgur.com/gallery/03vl0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, Cheddar the Cat can help keep the driver entertained for 60-90 minutes of otherwise boredom in the morning. Oh ya, bring those sunglasses for the east bound run.