barsad22 said:
I'm most puzzled by your choice of 84 miles as "demonstrated new car capacity." If I read all your charts correctly, you choose this important benchmark by taking the high end of Nissan's estimates for a 4.0 m/kwh drive.
We chose 84 miles, because we determined last summer that the car, when new, would go 84 miles at 4.0 miles per kWh as displayed on the dash. Check out my range chart, and you'll see that my data for 3.9 miles/kWh shows 82 miles. Nissan didn't come out with their chart until December 2011, many months after we had published our chart (and the thread is there for you to read all the trial and tribulations). Many find it quite curious how miraculously similar that data is (based on 21kWh for a new battery).
So, when we didn't have a car that could actually do the 84 miles, including my car that did in fact drive 84 miles at 4.0 miles/kWh when it was new (just 4 months ago), I had to rely on "official" Nissan data. This issue comes up a lot, and I would save a lot of typing if I just had that 84 mile car.
Can you explain first why you would choose a number from Nissan even though every Leaf owner understands a week after owning the car that Nissan was inflating all published numbers on range?
That data isn't marketing numbers.... that's engineering data. Again, it matches our own independent testing from over a year ago. But, I can't say, "Go look at my range chart", but I can use the exact same data from Nissan.
And if you agree with that assessment but still want to use the benchmark, why not use the most conservative number in the range (76) as your number? Or, for that matter, the more conservative 73 EPA estimate?
73, or 76 miles, is not the range when the car is new, in those specific parameters that we used. 84 miles is the number, and honestly, I predict we would go over by a mile or two with 80F batteries and 2600 feet density altitude.
After driving the car for a month, I realized that I just needed to set 70 miles (35 mile radius around my garage) as my reasonable expectation for range. By that measure, all the cars in your test manage to meet or exceed that level.
You don't think it's a bit disingenuous that your off the cuff data equals our's? I'm not trying to convince you, because for a small number, no amount of convincing seems to matter. It has accomplished the job that was intended. The issue has gained awareness amongst the EV community and Nissan is taking action. They seem to think there is a problem, even if daily, we might hear how "all is normal". It's so normal, that 55 year old Mark Perry is "retiring" from his very well paid job at Nissan. There are and will be other shake ups. Cars are getting turned in to Nissan. An advisory board has been announced.
In the end, your higher benchmark is 14 miles away from mine, but your conclusion is that these cars have significant battery loss, and my conclusion is that these cars are doing just fine.
Congrats to you. I hope your car provides you with many years of dependable service.
Is 14 miles worth the argument? Is it worth a class-action lawsuit against the only company willing to invest in BEV's? Is it worth the avalanche of negative press that threatens to squelch all interest in EVs for the next couple decades? All over a few more highway miles per charge?
You would have to ask the folks who are suing. I am not participating in any lawsuit, and acknowledge that legal challenges won't likely result in any short term changes. Longer term, I hope that EV manufacturers have regulatory requirements that they can't just casually spew out 100 mile range, or tell an owner whose car only goes 59 miles that "all is normal".
I am not a Nissan apologist -- I think they've completely bungled the marketing and customer relations for this car, and there's no excuse. There's no excuse for not having thermal management for the battery, either.
Selling the car in Phoenix was seriously tempting fate. The entire automotive battery world knew this was risky, well before the LEAF was released. Elon Musk, chairman of Tesla Motors, called this battery "primitive" and he was worried its failure would impact all EV's.
But none of that means your very well-designed road test proves anything, and by choosing a benchmark that conveniently gives you the results you expected (I.e that these cars don't live up to an imaginary 84-mile mark), I fear that you are helping those who want to see the Leaf consigned to the dustbin of history.
Josh
Well, we just disagree on a few points. I didn't produce these cars, or sell them in environments that it is not well suited. 84 miles isn't imaginary, and the results of our demonstration speak for themselves. How you choose to accept that is up to you.