[PHASED-OUT]: Tracking the $5k California CVRP Fund

[Glenn]

California charges sales tax on the Fed. 7,500 and the 5,000. Doing that is grossly unfair given the above information

Surely you don't mean the state taxes them (the credit and rebate) again when you receive them? I'm *certainly* no expert but I can't believe this! CA has already received their tax when you paid FULL PRICE for the vehicle at purchase time. To tax the credit and rebate AGAIN means the state would be getting an amount based on over $46,000, assuming a $34,000 purchase price plus the $12,500 credit and rebate. This HAS to be wrong!!

But what do I know...

Glenn

 

[EVDRIVER]

California charges sales tax on the Fed. 7,500 and the 5,000. Doing that is grossly unfair given the above information

But it is based on the sales price of the car, that is why it's called sales tax. One of CA's big budget issues is that billions of $ in sales tax is not being collected because of out of sate purchases. This my not hurt some states but for CA it's huge so they look for money where they can get it. Now, if you own ANY business and have over $100K in rev/inc?, you need to have a resale certificate and file sales tax reports even if you are not a retailer. Many business like contractors, mfg, etc buy supplies out of state and the state looses the sales tax rev and local business as well. I would not complain about the sales tax on the rebate, be glad you get it, the sales tax rate here is something to bitch about though.

The state needs to focus on waste and other issues, SF has a city budget bigger than most US states and gets over $100 million in parking ticket revenue each year and wants to raise ticket rates even higher, this is a 7X7 mile city, where the LOWEST parking ticket is approaching $60. They need a rewards program since someone is getting many tickets, even at $100 a pop they issue a ticket every second yet remain poor.

 

[EVDRIVER]

California charges sales tax on the Fed. 7,500 and the 5,000. Doing that is grossly unfair given the above information

Surely you don't mean the state taxes them (the credit and rebate) again when you receive them? I'm *certainly* no expert but I can't believe this! CA has already received their tax when you paid FULL PRICE for the vehicle at purchase time. To tax the credit and rebate AGAIN means the state would be getting an amount based on over $46,000, assuming a $34,000 purchase price plus the $12,500 credit and rebate. This HAS to be wrong!!

But what do I know...

Glenn

You pay tax on the purchase price of the cars full amount. When you get the $5000 rebate you MAY need to pay fed income tax on that amount. I promise you that this silly debate will go on endlessly. For those that want a real answer contact the Franchise Tax Board and the IRS- end of story. Until then it's all speculation and wishful thinking and unless someone here has it in writing they have a 50/50 chance of the correct answer, not sure it can be any simpler than that

 

[stanley]

My point deals with the SALES TAX only, at time of purchase. In California one pays sales tax on the full purchase price.(excluding residual if a lease) Always included is the $7,500 from the Fed. Whether you buy or lease. For sales tax purposes the $7,500 is added back in to the purchase price to determine the total sales tax due.. At the time of purchase, even though you will be applying for the $5,000 rebate, sales tax is paid on the $5,000( included in the purchase price) at the dealer as well.

 

[EVDRIVER]

My point deals with the SALES TAX only, at time of purchase. In California one pays sales tax on the full purchase price.(excluding residual if a lease) Always included is the $7,500 from the Fed. Whether you buy or lease. For sales tax purposes the $7,500 is added back in to the purchase price to determine the total sales tax due.. At the time of purchase, even though you will be applying for the $5,000 rebate, sales tax is paid on the $5,000( included in the purchase price) at the dealer as well.

The rebates are not "added back in" in a purchase, the purchase price of the car is the full negotiated price, rebates come AFTER the purchase and the sales contract does not show these rebates in a purchase. When you buy a cell phone on a plan at a reduced price of $50, the tax is base on the retail price so in effect the diff between what you get a receipt for and the retail price is "added" back in for tax valuation but is not reflected on the receipt price.

The car purchase price is right on the contract and tax is based on that selling price and there is no way to even know what rebates one would qualify for even if they did allow the reduction for tax basis.

 

[RevBrent]

Am I correct in understanding that the current CVRP rebate status page https://energycenter.org/index.php/...an-vehicle-rebate-project/cvrp-program-status includes the 2 million that the California Energy Commission set aside in early January? Or are we still waiting for those funds to be listed?

 

[Glenn]

Am I correct in understanding that the current CVRP rebate status page https://energycenter.org/index.php/...an-vehicle-rebate-project/cvrp-program-status includes the 2 million that the California Energy Commission set aside in early January? Or are we still waiting for those funds to be listed?

I'm pretty sure David Almeida mentioned recently that the 2 million has been allocated, but that the pie chart and corresponding 6.5 million remaining has not yet been updated to reflect that.

 

[smkettner]

I thought the extra 2m had separate requirements that excluded some vehicles but definately included Leaf. Maybe the funds will need to be held separate.

 

[Glenn]

I thought the extra 2m had separate requirements that excluded some vehicles but definately included Leaf. Maybe the funds will need to be held separate.

You're right about the requirements.

http://tinyurl.com/4dt4tt8

In a workshop earlier today, the California Air Resources Board publicly stated that the California Energy Commission will direct $2 million into the 2011 budget for clean vehicle rebates. “However it is important to note that the additional $2 million in funding will be reserved for rebates of vehicles capable of carrying four passengers and highway driving,” wrote David Almeida in an email to PluginCars.com. “So it looks like the Tesla Roadster, neighborhood electric vehicles and zero emission motorcycles are ineligible for this extra funding.”

Last time I talked to David, CSEC wasn't exactly sure how the funds would be allocated with regard to the money already in the pot. That may be why they haven't updated the web page yet.

Glenn

 

[garygid]

You folks should pay attention to EVDRIVER about the taxable status of the CA $5000 rebate.

Nobody has yet reported getting a written tax ruling on the LEAF Rebate from the IRS. Even then, THAT ruling applies ONLY to them.

There are many other published IRS rulings on other items (solar panel, energy-star appliance, etc.) that apply to all of us, but nobody here has posted finding a ruling that actually covers this CA Rebate for the LEAF BEV.

 

[palmermd]

Looks like we may be approaching 1/4 of the way through this funding. The calculations are a little fuzzy since I was not keeping detailed records of each change of the funds as well as how much was there when each member was given a VIN number.

The first customer VIN numbers were around 200. Right now the cars getting VIN's are around 700. Delivered cars are around 400. California represents 70% of the cars according to the spreadsheet, and I assume that that holds true for the entire rollout and not just for MNL members. So we've taken a little over 350 cars. Here is where I'm a little fuzzy. I'm assuming that there are 140 cars that have money reserved (.7*200 delivered cars). There is 1300 cars worth of money left in the pot as of today. That means that the last VIN number that should get the rebate should have a VIN around (1300|0.7)+400 = approximately 2250. I'd start to be concerned if the VIN's go above about 1900.

This is all just speculation, and the VIN's are not going out in perfect numerical order, but it should give a ballpark VIN number for when the funds will run out.

 

[Center4Energy]

Am I correct in understanding that the current CVRP rebate status page https://energycenter.org/index.php/...an-vehicle-rebate-project/cvrp-program-status includes the 2 million that the California Energy Commission set aside in early January? Or are we still waiting for those funds to be listed?

I'm pretty sure David Almeida mentioned recently that the 2 million has been allocated, but that the pie chart and corresponding 6.5 million remaining has not yet been updated to reflect that.

Hello All,

I wanted to respond to the above post regarding the $2M in CEC funds. We have not added these additional funds to the CVRP website, I repeat we have not added the additional funds to the website. With that being said, the CEC has approved this funding at their February 23 business meeting. Additionally, the CEC has indicated this allocation in their 2010-2012 Draft Investment Plan for AB 118 Funds (page 42) http://www.energy.ca.gov/2010-ALT-1/documents/index.html, the legislation that funds a raft of different alternative fuel and technology programs including the CVRP.

I recently posted that CCSE would update the website to reflect the additional funds, however we are waiting to do this until ARB and CEC sign an inter-agency agreement. I realize that this all sounds bureaucratic, but this is the process that we must go through when working with state funds. We expect that the inter-agency agreement will be completed within the next month. Again, I apologize for suggesting it would happen sooner. In any case, CCSE will make sure to announce the additional funds on our website as well as MNL.

As you may have noticed the CVRP Available Funding webpage has changed slightly. We added "Pending" to reflect those that have applied online, but have not been reviewed by our staff. "Reserved" now reflects online applications that have been approved and are awaiting the approval of their supplementary documentation (vehicle registration, proof of purchase and residency, etc). "Rebates Issued", obviously designates checks that have been sent to applicants.

While this is may not seem important at the moment, we expect that it will provide greater transparency in the future. Both CCSE and ARB realize that the CVRP rebate is a major factor in many of your future purchases of zero emission vehicles. As a result we want to provide you all with the most up-to-date information available regarding CVRP funds. As more and more rebates are issued, we want to ensure that applicants know how much is in-process, approved and distributed.

As always, please let me know if you have any questions or have any feedback on either of these topics.

Best,

David Almeida
Project Administrator, Clean Vehicle Rebate Project
California Center for Sustainable Energy
8690 Balboa Ave., Suite 100
San Diego, CA 92123-1502
858.244.1190 phone
http://www.energycenter.org/CVRP web

 

[abasile]

David, we appreciate your transparency as to the rebate process. I have one question. I understand that, if rebates run out in FY '11, then there will be a waiting list for FY '12 funds. However, I've also seen it mentioned that the Nissan LEAF rebate amount could potentially be lowered to $2500 in FY '12. Can you comment on this? How likely is it that the rebate amount will remain at $5000? When might we know for sure what the FY '12 rebate terms will be? Thank you.

 

[Center4Energy]

Looks like we may be approaching 1/4 of the way through this funding. The calculations are a little fuzzy since I was not keeping detailed records of each change of the funds as well as how much was there when each member was given a VIN number.

The first customer VIN numbers were around 200. Right now the cars getting VIN's are around 700. Delivered cars are around 400. California represents 70% of the cars according to the spreadsheet, and I assume that that holds true for the entire rollout and not just for MNL members. So we've taken a little over 350 cars. Here is where I'm a little fuzzy. I'm assuming that there are 140 cars that have money reserved (.7*200 delivered cars). There is 1300 cars worth of money left in the pot as of today. That means that the last VIN number that should get the rebate should have a VIN around (1300|0.7)+400 = approximately 2250. I'd start to be concerned if the VIN's go above about 1900.

This is all just speculation, and the VIN's are not going out in perfect numerical order, but it should give a ballpark VIN number for when the funds will run out.

Hello All,

I have been reading on and off about a tracking spreadsheet over the past few months. Is it possible for someone at MNL to forward this spreadsheet to us here at CCSE. We are working closely with the OEM's, the state and other relevant stakeholders to anticipate future rebate demand. However, the more information we have the better and it seems like this would be a great tool for us to accomplish our goal. The better we can plan for this demand the faster that we can process these rebates.

Additionally, I want to take this time to emphasize that you cannot apply for your rebate until you have physical ownership of the vehicle. I understand that some dealers have been providing many of you with VIN numbers. Please do not try and apply for a rebate early. If you do we will cancel your application and you will have to re-apply.

Thank you,

David Almeida
Project Administrator, Clean Vehicle Rebate Project
California Center for Sustainable Energy
8690 Balboa Ave., Suite 100
San Diego, CA 92123-1502
858.244.1190 phone
http://www.energycenter.org/CVRP web

 

[DaveEV]

I have been reading on and off about a tracking spreadsheet over the past few months. Is it possible for someone at MNL to forward this spreadsheet to us here at CCSE.

See this thread: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1949

The spreadsheet is in no way complete or official. Completely volunteer driven. But does help determine trends of what is going on.

 

[Center4Energy]

David, we appreciate your transparency as to the rebate process. I have one question. I understand that, if rebates run out in FY '11, then there will be a waiting list for FY '12 funds. However, I've also seen it mentioned that the Nissan LEAF rebate amount could potentially be lowered to $2500 in FY '12. Can you comment on this? How likely is it that the rebate amount will remain at $5000? When might we know for sure what the FY '12 rebate terms will be? Thank you.

Abasile,

You are correct, there will be a waiting list developed if/when the CVRP program becomes oversubscribed. We are currently working on the specific language regarding requirements for those that are on this list. This topic will be discussed in greater detail during the upcoming CVRP Work Group Meeting on March 17, from 10.00-12.00. I will include the call-in information below.

While ARB has not made any decisions about reducing the rebate, it is something that has been discussed during the previous Work Group Meeting. I don't have an exact dollar amount, but if it is reduced the rebate will be somewhere between $2500 and $5000. Again, this topic will be discussed during the call on March 17.

I realize that I have somewhat skirted your questions. I don't want to be evasive but I think it is better to put up a post after the work group call when things are clearer. If you are available, I encourage you to attend and voice your opinion. Your participation and feedback is exactly why we have these public work group meetings.

Best,

David

CALL IN INFO
ARB will be hosting the second CVRP Work Group teleconference on Thursday, March 17, 2011 from 10:00 a.m. to Noon, PST.

DIAL-IN NUMBER: 888-942-9574
PASSCODE: 14383

An agenda will be distributed by e-mail prior to the teleconference, and documents will be posted at:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aqip/cvrp.htm

The purpose of this teleconference is to communicate final updates to the FY 2010-11 CVRP Implementation Manual and further develop concepts for inclusion in the FY 2011-12 Funding Plan. We look forward to your participation. Please contact me if you have any questions.

 

[Center4Energy]

I have been reading on and off about a tracking spreadsheet over the past few months. Is it possible for someone at MNL to forward this spreadsheet to us here at CCSE.

See this thread: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1949

The spreadsheet is in no way complete or official. Completely volunteer driven. But does help determine trends of what is going on.

Great, Thanks!

 

[palmermd]

There is 1300 cars worth of money left in the pot as of today. That means that the last VIN number that should get the rebate should have a VIN around (1300|0.7)+400 = approximately 2250. I'd start to be concerned if the VIN's go above about 1900.

I wanted to respond to the above post regarding the $2M in CEC funds. We have not added these additional funds to the CVRP website, I repeat we have not added the additional funds to the website.

That means an additional 400 cars which would mean 570 additional VINumbers. That would put the last VIN at approximately 2800, and I'd begin to start worrying if I were above 2500. Of course as noted earlier, it depends on the ratio of California cars to other states, and also the number of other cars that take money beyond LEAF's which is not too many. It also depends on how many gaps there are and have been in the VIN history so far. Way too many variables, but is the best estimate I can do at this point.

 

[abasile]

While ARB has not made any decisions about reducing the rebate, it is something that has been discussed during the previous Work Group Meeting. I don't have an exact dollar amount, but if it is reduced the rebate will be somewhere between $2500 and $5000. Again, this topic will be discussed during the call on March 17.

Thank you. I am not sure if I will be able to devote two hours of my workday to the call on 3/17, but I will consider it. As for the rebate amount, I understand that the benefit of lowering it would be to potentially offer rebates to more buyers, since the funding is limited. My only concern is that the sequence of April/May LEAF deliveries seems to be somewhat random, meaning that someone who reserved and ordered early could miss out on getting the rebate in FY '11.

Out of fairness to the earliest LEAF adopters, who must tolerate greater risk and inconvenience than subsequent buyers, I think it would be best for the rebate amount to remain unchanged, at least for those who apply before the end of FY '11. Of course, it would be ideal if the funding pool were less limited, but we understand that our state budget is not exactly in good shape. Thank you for your consideration.

 

[garygid]

One submits the on-line application on the purchase/lease day.

How long does the application typically stay "Pending" before we would get your email confirming that it has gone to "Reserved" status?
Hours, one day, or more?